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Old 01-22-2004, 03:35 AM   #51
totoherbs
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mach V Dan
One final note about intakes: The 300-hp STi uses the exact same scoopy/ducty setup as the plain-Jane WRX. Must not be that bad of a chokepoint, right?

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The spec C and s202 use it too at +300...
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Old 01-22-2004, 08:35 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by SJwrx
Ur gonna start a whole other flame war here. Its gonna be how K&N's decrease the cars performance by oil up the MAF sensor... yes, thats it... its the filter's fault, not the idiot who over-oiled it.


Rich
This is true and i wont wont deny it. It will never be oiled beside what the factory applied and will be switched out when the time comes to clean it. I wasnt planning on causing a issue about this. I new this before i purchased it. I did let it air out for a half a day and even use my air compressor on it prior to dropping it in. Im not saying that will help at all. STI pannel filter is the next one i get.
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Old 01-22-2004, 11:19 AM   #53
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Originally posted by SJwrx
Ur gonna start a whole other flame war here. Its gonna be how K&N's decrease the cars performance by oil up the MAF sensor... yes, thats it... its the filter's fault, not the idiot who over-oiled it.

Jesus people, I can't believe this is STILL going on. The "anti-intake" people have been shown (again) that intakes work well for the car, and boy this is a fight. Its like how the US is holding onto the standard system, and not switching to the metric system.

Ur wrong, admit it, move on...

So long as someone is making the accusation about temps and how the shops fans are making BS horsepower, why not bring up larger TMIC's are not doing anything aswell, since they employ a fan aswell (not the best argument though).

Out of everyone who is flaming air intakes...who's had one physically on their car?

I've had 2... one on, sold it due to dealer and I-Clubs internet techs. and now have it again... and I'm reaping the benefits

Rich
Rich, thank you! I have noticed quite a few "anti-intake" people on this and other Subaru forums. They never have any proof to back up their claims. At least there are SOME dyno graphs proving the power gain of a CAI. The "anti's" have nothing. I recently took off my Injen CAI to try out the stock air box again, just to see the difference, and I wasn't happy. The stock box may be efficient, but I could just feel the decrease in power, especially in the higher Rpm range. So, I went through the trouble of putting the Injen back in. It's practically a night/day difference. The Injen improves throttle response, and overall power. I don't have any ECU changes done, so far I have only done bolt ons. Vishnu intercooler pipe, GFB BOV, Dawes MBC, Invidia TBE, and the Injen CAI. I'm not planning on going with a FMIC, so I'm gonna stick with the Injen. My car runs great, and it doesn't run lean at all. I don't want to offend anyone that is against the idea of a CAI on a rex, but I have talked to quite a few people that are happy with the Injen CAI.
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Old 01-22-2004, 12:15 PM   #54
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n00bs! n00bs! n00bs!

My car was one of the "prototype" cars used to make the K&N Typoon CAI. I know for a fact that they designed and re-designed and re-designed their intake many times over to mininize the POWER LOSS from installing their intake on a stock computer...

K&N truely have an awesome faciltiy here in Riverside. In-house dynos, machining and all kinds of computers for designing junk. They did not want to do want other companys do and backward engineer an exsisting component. They tried their best using all the resources at their disposal and couldn't make an intake that will show sustained power gain.

If you install the intake and do not re-flash your ecu, you will see power gains for the first ~ 15 mins or so of driving. Then the ecu will learn of the airflow and compensate to make things safe again. In the end you can hope to have not lost power and retain the cool sound of a CAI.

Take that fwiw.
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Old 01-22-2004, 12:56 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by industrial
If you install the intake and do not re-flash your ecu, you will see power gains for the first ~ 15 mins or so of driving. Then the ecu will learn of the airflow and compensate to make things safe again. In the end you can hope to have not lost power and retain the cool sound of a CAI.
Sounds to me like you've never actually driven your car with an air intake... oh well, I can't perswade (sp?) you.

Thats great for K&N, they couldn't make power... oh well, Injen did. I have been to Injen and got a tour with Paul and they too have a great little facility down South.

Injen... can't beat additional horsepower and a CARB EO#

Rich
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Old 01-22-2004, 01:09 PM   #56
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I hope new people don't come along and actually confuse this thread for some kind of proof that a cai is worth anything other than noise....
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Old 01-22-2004, 01:21 PM   #57
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trust is n00b
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Old 01-22-2004, 01:24 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by LotusDrift
I hope new people don't come along and actually confuse this thread for some kind of proof that a cai is worth anything other than noise....
Maybe some will, maybe some won't. Your opinion is yours, and my opinion is mine. To decide is up to them...


Rich

You ever had an intake on your Subi?

Rich
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Old 01-22-2004, 02:20 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by LotusDrift
I hope new people don't come along and actually confuse this thread for some kind of proof that a cai is worth anything other than noise....



Well injen has been selling them for a while and there are plently of people willing to throw away thier money.
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Old 01-22-2004, 02:46 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by SJwrx
Sounds to me like you've never actually driven your car with an air intake... oh well, I can't perswade (sp?) you.
You apparently did read this part:

Quote:
My car was one of the "prototype" cars used to make the K&N Typoon CAI. I know for a fact that they designed and re-designed and re-designed their intake many times over to mininize the POWER LOSS from installing their intake on a stock computer...

I ran a Unifilter Ram Pod Short Ram intake for a few months.
When I took it off, I couldnt believe how bad my MPG got.
A sure sign of the amount of correction the ecu had to do to compensate for the short ram. It couldnt have been a good thing.
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Old 01-22-2004, 03:31 PM   #61
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Originally posted by wrx2.0 555
A sure sign of the amount of correction the ecu had to do to
compensate for the short ram. It couldnt have been a good thing.
A good point also...


But it all boils down to YMMV, for everyone.
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Old 01-22-2004, 04:09 PM   #62
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I don't see what the big deal is. These CAI things do sound wicked cool and certainly make the butt dyno peg. If you honestly want to make power I would think by now its been pretty established by most major tuners that cold air intakes and such don't really make power... $200 can buy an uppipe which would be a much better investment IMHO.

Most tuners also advise against blowoff valves (for performance) and that is probably the most common engine mod I've seen during the meets I go to.

Just admit it, you guys want your CAI because you can hear your turbo betta.
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Old 01-22-2004, 04:37 PM   #63
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I just cut my Injen CAI down to a short ram, I'll be installing on friday. I give a lil review when I'm done.






--Ryan
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Old 01-22-2004, 05:57 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by m u f a s i s
I just cut my Injen CAI down to a short ram, I'll be installing on friday. I give a lil review when I'm done.






--Ryan
Where are you going to locate the filter? I would be interested to see how it works out for you.
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Old 01-22-2004, 06:04 PM   #65
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Default errr....

I dont understand what you mean!? I cut the pipe 3 to 4 inches in front of the MAF sensor right before then bend. I used masking tape to get a perfect line, then I used a hack saw to cut, then sanded to a perfect finish. The filter will be put on as normal.





--Ryan
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Old 01-22-2004, 06:36 PM   #66
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this is so far, one of the few threads in ffi that's worth reading, kinda like a drama series, like in OT, except, this is the ffi version

three topics people will always argue about in ffi
1. cai
2. bov
3. oil

ok, intermission is over, go back arguing, hehe
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Old 01-22-2004, 07:08 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by Concillian
Good to see this debate is still around.

I'm still waiting for someone to do the REAL comparison.

Until I see dyno results of:
Stock intake tuned car (plotted AFR)
vs.
Aftermarket intake tuned car (plotted AFR ~identical to that of the stock intake chart)

I
OH, so NOW its about making HP and TQ with a tuned ECU... not with a stock car anymore.

Tell you what, go ask MRT, APS, and ESX if the air intake is for the *bling* factor.


Quote:
Originally posted by wrx2.0 555
You apparently did read this part:
I ran a Unifilter Ram Pod Short Ram intake for a few months.
When I took it off, I couldnt believe how bad my MPG got.
A sure sign of the amount of correction the ecu had to do to compensate for the short ram. It couldnt have been a good thing.
If everyone based themselves off of other people's cars then we'd all be in trouble. I was just told a story over at Auto Innovations about how a person "A" bought a TXS turboback and installed it, and went to go get the car dyno tuned. To make a long story short, that tuner could not make any additional horspower with the turboback... Auto Innovations bought it back (after a long ordeal). Another person "B" heard the story and went to go ask how that happened, and couldn't believe the deal they had on the used exhaust. He couldn't believe the story, so he bought it, and went and got it tuned...guess what, he made more horsepower and torque.

My point being that MAYBE that person "A" had a funky car, or MAYBE that the tuner didn't do what he/she was supposed to, or MAYBE he was BS'ing and wanted his moneyback. Anything can happen today, especially with cars being mass produced.

When I got my WRX in Feb of 2002, it was all the rage and companies had lot of crappy parts out for them. Injen were the only people willing to use a dyno to back up there product, and that sold me on the purchase of it. When I installed it on the car, its sold me to what they had shown me with the dyno numbers.

Whats rediculous are the people saying "air intakes are bad for the car"...AH yes, and boost controllers, huge turbo's w/o engine managment, and 13lbs flywheels are a much better solution than an air intake.

For what its worth an air intake isn't the best "bang for the buck", but it is an easy modification that looks, sounds, and performs well... and its legal .

Injen has supplied us with dyno charts that prove an air intake makes power on a stock car, now we need the "anti-intake" people to show us dyno's of how it decrease engine performance.

Rich

Last edited by SJwrx; 01-22-2004 at 07:15 PM.
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Old 01-22-2004, 07:15 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by SJwrx
[b]....is an easy modification that looks, sounds, and performs well... and its legal .

Injen has supplied us with dyno charts that prove an air intake makes power on a stock car, now we need the "anti-intake" people to show us dyno's of how it decrease engine performance.
I agree with you its been debated to death,

but...

1.) Who said anything about legallity?
2.) Remember the dyno results can be 'modded' with ease, dont buy into it.

My 2cents, and last post in this thread
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Old 01-22-2004, 07:18 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by 03WRXMA
I agree with you its been debated to death,

but...

1.) Who said anything about legallity?
2.) Remember the dyno results can be 'modded' with ease, dont buy into it.

My 2cents, and last post in this thread
Legality is a thing us Californians have to take into consideration.

Vishnu's, TXS's, APS's, MRT's, ScoobySports's, Invidia's, etc etc etc all can be tampered with. That is why it's important what the companies credability is. Injen is a good little company (first hand experience).


Rich
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Old 01-22-2004, 07:25 PM   #70
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Good point Rich,

I agree with you on that about anyones can be skewed anyway.

And I forgot about CARB. Two thumbs down for them




I lied
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Old 01-22-2004, 10:55 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally posted by LotusDrift
Maybe it gives some throttle response? Any takers on that one?
did somebody call for my input?

haha

Yeah - i've had literally 20+ different intake configurations on my WRX. Everything from the APS 70mm cold air intake (one of the finest on the market, but REQUIRES tuning) to just the stock setup. I've even experiemented heavily with the stock parts, converting it to a genuine ram-air setup.

What are my impressions?

Yes there are improvements to be had over the stock system. Throttle response and boost threshold are two key areas that improve with an aftermarket intake.

HOWEVER - you will NOT get a whole lot of safe improvement out of most intakes without proper wideband O2 tuning.

That said, Clark (AZScoobie) has remarked that of all the aftermarket intakes that he has tuned, the two that are closest to the stock setup in terms of MAF voltage for given cfm, the APS 65mm version is the best, with the Perrin a close second.

Do what you want to do with your car, but realize that a dyno sheet from a manufacturer is almost always BUNK. I mean, crap... I've seen dyno sheets from certain spark plug mfg'ers who claim 8hp just from using their plugs... We all know there are all too many problems with that claim.

So - Intakes can be good... They are only best when accompanied with dyno tuning... COLD AIR is preferred, but short ram is sometimes okay... they are often bad when not accompanied by tuning (e.g. APS 70mm).

If Injen's own in-house engineers told you that it will lean out the mixture a little bit, but that it has the same size maf housing, then that kind of indicates a failure on their part to understand what is really happening... either that or just plain B.S.

bah. intakes.
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Old 01-22-2004, 11:10 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by SJwrx

Quote:
Originally posted by Concillian
Good to see this debate is still around.

I'm still waiting for someone to do the REAL comparison.

Until I see dyno results of:
Stock intake tuned car (plotted AFR)
vs.
Aftermarket intake tuned car (plotted AFR ~identical to that of the stock intake chart)
OH, so NOW its about making HP and TQ with a tuned ECU... not with a stock car anymore.

I went and dug up the first comments I made on the subject. My line hasn't changed, to me there was never a debate about whether things are better without AFR tuning, it's quite obvious to someone with even basic understanding of what an itake affects that those claims can be true. The question is what changes when you compare the same car with similar AFRs, properly tuned timing, and different intakes:

Quote:
[b]But without tuning, it's a crapshoot. I'd never put an intake on my car without getting it tuned afterwards, and half the gain that the manufacturers claim is because they cause the car to run leaner. Intake, in my opinion, is best left to very late in your modification scheme. Do it right, get tunability first. Worry about intake after you have a turbo that can really push air through the system, you'll get more benefit by focusing elsewhere until then.
and
Quote:
I don't trust dynos on intakes because they fool the air sensor into running the car leaner. If you're going to tune the a/f mixture anyway, who cares what you gain by an intake that causes there to be more air per amount of fuel. Plus, that's a N/A car, where the cold air makes more of a difference. All that tells me is there is probably a pretty small (real) gain to be had from an intake on our cars if you're going to get the a/f ratio tuned anyway.
I maintain that intakes are primarily a poor man's fuel tuning to lean out the richness of the stock ECU.

But I have seen no actual proof either way supporting or disproving the theory.

The fact of the matter is that most people (here at least) use some form of aftermarket engine managment. To me the question has always been if an intake is useful if used in conjunction with programmable engine management.
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Old 01-23-2004, 04:45 PM   #73
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Default Re: errr....

Quote:
Originally posted by m u f a s i s
I dont understand what you mean!? I cut the pipe 3 to 4 inches in front of the MAF sensor right before then bend. I used masking tape to get a perfect line, then I used a hack saw to cut, then sanded to a perfect finish. The filter will be put on as normal.





--Ryan
I meant where in the engine bay will the filter now sit? I was wondering if you were going to keep it in the fender well, or cut enough that it sits in the engine bay. But since you only cut about 4 inches that will still keep it in the fender well. I wonder if making the piping a little shorter will affect the overall air flow intake or velocity?
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Old 01-24-2004, 05:07 AM   #74
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Default Re: Re: errr....

Quote:
Originally posted by T-WREXX
I wonder if making the piping a little shorter will affect the overall air flow intake or velocity?
Yes it will, and you'll probably never really know until you do it. There are so many other variables playing with our car's ECU than intake length...

Rich
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