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Old 01-22-2004, 11:32 PM   #1
BIGSKYWRX
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Default Whose running w/o their subframe?

I've read through the DRIVE magazine of late that had a short article on the subframe. Without a doubt the main prurpose was to help w/ offset-frontal impacts. BUT also mentions "adding rigidity to the chassis and helps suport the engine and some chassis components".

We all know the RA and spec C following it, delete the front subframe. I'm sure this is a weight savings (like thinner rear glass, no AC, manual windows, etc) as many of the spec C's/RA's are destined for rally (full seam welding).

However, all of the test magazine snippets/videos never seem to point out an handling downsides to the RA/spec C.

I'd be curious to hear from folks not running the subframe and their thoughts on performance. This is a no brainer for 1320'ers I would think, but not sure at all for the twisties>

TIA

Big Sky
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Old 01-23-2004, 12:39 AM   #2
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it is pretty heavy, no doubt. I also read, with interest, that latest issue of Drive.

Tell you what, when winter ends and I can put my summer tires back on, i'll drive around for a week without the subframe and tell you what I think. It would be kind of pointless to test it out on snow tires, ya know?
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Old 01-23-2004, 12:54 AM   #3
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I took mine off a couple months ago, and used the washers for my ALK to shim the front 2 attach bolts for my v2 Cusco lower arm bar and I have noticed no appreciable drop in anything but front end weight. It 'aint going back on.
With all the weight I've removed from the front of the car, it really does 'point' and handle amazingly well
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Old 01-23-2004, 05:38 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Scotty
With all the weight I've removed from the front of the car, it really does 'point' and handle amazingly well
Air conditioner?
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Old 01-23-2004, 09:44 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by nhluhr
it is pretty heavy, no doubt. I also read, with interest, that latest issue of Drive.

Tell you what, when winter ends and I can put my summer tires back on, i'll drive around for a week without the subframe and tell you what I think. It would be kind of pointless to test it out on snow tires, ya know?
I'm on snow tires too, no sense now I agree.

The other thread just got popped back up, besides I wanted to hear from folks who actually had removed it.

Scotty- that is encouraging to hear your results.

I think the subframe w/ all 12 bolts is in the neighborhood of 25 lbs, all of it in the front end.

This may be a minor point, but the plastic splash guard up front would also have to removed (IIRC) would this have any effect at speed (ie lift)?

FWIW- if I end up removing mine, I'd probably put it back in the winter- statistically (in MT anyways) higher chance of a fender bender.

Thanks for the replys.

Big Sky
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Old 01-23-2004, 02:09 PM   #6
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i've had mine off the car
it's not THAT heavy... 20lbs - ish

destroyed it and had to fit a new one to my WRX
would never drive round w/out it ,
as it is very much needed on the rally car.
Unfortunately i cannot comment on the drivability.

it's safety equipment and as banged up as it was
it probably saved my WRX from massive further damage

Jamie
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Old 01-23-2004, 02:42 PM   #7
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I'm sure it helps w/ crash damage and thus worthwhile keeping it on day to day. If one could lose the 20-25 lbs for track days (and not suffer in the performance end) it would probably be worth it- it's only a 15-20 minute job to remove it (same to reinstall).

Anybody else running w/o?

Big Sky
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Old 01-24-2004, 03:23 PM   #8
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I've removed it and replaced it with a lower armbar. It ties all 4 points together for rigidity and only weights about 3 pounds. Car seem s to handle very well but I'm still on snows.
Joe
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Old 01-24-2004, 04:47 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by WRX 2NV
I've removed it and replaced it with a lower armbar. It ties all 4 points together for rigidity and only weights about 3 pounds. Car seem s to handle very well but I'm still on snows.
Joe
Thanks- did you have to "shim" yours as well- as most braces are made to fit w/ subframe?
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Old 01-25-2004, 01:22 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by BIGSKYWRX
Thanks- did you have to "shim" yours as well- as most braces are made to fit w/ subframe?
No shim. Had to grind a bit of the frame off (very little) and it fit like a glove.
The steering blocks I bought from you way back are also working fine.
Joe
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Old 01-25-2004, 01:47 PM   #11
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I would be very interested in just where you 'grind a bit of the frame off' to make it 'fit like a glove'.

What lower arm bar do you have? Cusco and the GT-Spec Cusco copy are the two more popular ones.
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Old 01-25-2004, 02:12 PM   #12
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Default Yeah,

what Scotty said. I have the Cusco Ver II lower arm bar and used the ALK spacers just like Scotty, to make it "fit like a glove". And the weight including the splash guard and bolts removed was 27 lbs.

San
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Old 01-25-2004, 02:28 PM   #13
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I'm glad to hear folks are running w/o the subframe w/ no apparent downside in performance- 27 lbs is nothing to sneeze at- especailly at the front end.

Well I had the chance to poke around under a US STi this weekend to look at their oem chassis brace. I found that they can be had for ~ $20 IIRC, so I figured I better look closer. They mount under the jacking plate w/ the four oe bolts- the problem comes w/ the other end. The new v8's have a gusset welded into the crossmember that it bolts into. It's a pretty nice setup as it is dead even and centered w/ the control arms- I was hoping for a bolt in though.

Big Sky
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Old 01-25-2004, 02:45 PM   #14
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Fabbing gussets and bolting/welding them should be a fairly simple task.
I'm really interested in some of the JDM stuff, too....DO-Luck(and one or 2 others) makes a bunch of chassis stuff, and if I were to do the whole thing, I'd get the whole ball of wax and install it and mebbe even a cage(driving with a cage, here, unless it is an obvious 'show only' car is an invite to the pigs to ticket you right into the poor house and riding DaBus for a while)....
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Old 01-26-2004, 08:40 AM   #15
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It was the CUSCO lower arm bar . Not being Mr. Mechanic, let me check with the supplier and the mechanics who installed it.
I'm guessing from the posts that you used spacers. My first thought is that the spacers were used in the area of the front two attachment points. That's where we ground down frame so we could slip the unit in. Once it got past that obstruction it lined up perfectly. I never got, nor even knew there were spacers for it. My supplier had previously installed others in his cars and he was kind of the project manager.
If you need more info let me know although it sounds as if oldmansan and Uncle Scotty have both successfully installed theirs. By the way - what did you guys use to replace the splash guard?
Joe
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Old 01-26-2004, 09:42 AM   #16
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I'd like to hear on the splash guard as well. It probably serves a little bit to prevent lift I would think. I think some kind of dam could be fashioned underneath.

Big Sky
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Old 01-26-2004, 10:01 AM   #17
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Damn....I just had this nice post all typed up and *poof*....
GAWD, I hate that
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Old 01-26-2004, 10:15 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Uncle Scotty
Damn....I just had this nice post all typed up and *poof*....
GAWD, I hate that
Try again- inquiring minds want to know
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Old 01-26-2004, 11:22 AM   #19
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so i guess this is out of the question for a daily driver, but what about the doluck subframes? worth the money? ...steel one mostly the alu is killer expensive.

~SGD
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Old 01-26-2004, 11:51 AM   #20
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I am running around without it, at least untill I get the spacers in so i can fit it back on with the ALK... I have been getting a slight clunking from time to time in the front end which is probably a result of something else, I need to check it out soon. Im on snow tires right now so its hard to tell if there was any noticable difference.

On another note, I am working on a subframe that will replace the factory one and should work as crash protection just like OEM, but will also be much more rigid, and lighter than the stock piece.
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Old 01-26-2004, 11:56 AM   #21
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I've removed the U-Frame, but refuse to drive around without some protection. So, I've put in the Carbing lower frame that bolts onto 8-points of the chassis, similar to the Do-Lucks. I find it more rigid then when I had the Cusco H-Lower brace and the STi lower brace on. Overall, lighter too.

Check page 109 of Hyper Rev Vol.84.....
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Old 01-26-2004, 11:57 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by kennethw
I've removed the U-Frame, but refuse to drive around without some protection. So, I've put in the Carbing lower frame that bolts onto 8-points of the chassis, similar to the Do-Lucks. I find it more rigid then when I had the Cusco H-Lower brace and the STi lower brace on. Overall, lighter too.

Check page 109 of Hyper Rev Vol.84.....
Would you post a link, please?
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Old 01-26-2004, 12:37 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by kennethw
I've removed the U-Frame, but refuse to drive around without some protection. So, I've put in the Carbing lower frame that bolts onto 8-points of the chassis, similar to the Do-Lucks. I find it more rigid then when I had the Cusco H-Lower brace and the STi lower brace on. Overall, lighter too.

Check page 109 of Hyper Rev Vol.84.....

yes... pictures, link?!!?!?!
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Old 01-26-2004, 03:32 PM   #24
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Found this at bulletproof automotive ($325) doesn't list if steel or aluminum???



Big Sky
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Old 01-26-2004, 03:47 PM   #25
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Yeah but that also isn't a Subaru. It looks more like an Evo.

Other than that pretty similar to the Subaru one that Do-Luck has.
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