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Old 02-05-2004, 04:57 AM   #1
ImprezaRSX
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Default Turbo Kit Owners, READ. Especially Ludespeed kit owners.

THIS IS NOT LIMITED TO LUDESPEED KITS ALONE.
It's the kit I have and I haven't investigated others.

While troubleshooting some idle quality problems I came upon this important piece of info.

The Ludespeed kit renders your PCV system practically useless. This system is often under-rated by people, but true professionals know that a good vacuum on your crankcase is very important because it helps your rings seal and generates HP. Multi-thousand horsepower engines have vacuum pumps that run off the crank and draw a vacuum on the crankcase.

Eliminating this feature hurts your throttle response, gas mileage and oil consumption.

The Problem

The intake manifold has an attached PCV checkvalve that draws a vacuum on the crankcase and removes oil vapor.

The ludespeed kit has you run a hose from the suction on the valve cover breathers to the suction side of the turbo. The basis for this is that when the engine goes under boost, the check valve will shut and the turbo will draw the vacuum via it's suction. This is an accurate assumption, although the vacuum is minimal.

The problem is that when the engine is in the vacuum region, where it spends most of it's time. The intake manifold is not drawing a sufficient vacuum on the crankcase. It is mearly drawing a large amount of air into the engine from the hose routed to the turbo suction.

This is causing TWO major problems on my car and may be affecting yours too.

It is affecting idle quality by allowing too much air to enter the intake unmetered.

It is reducing the effectiveness of the PCV system drastically.

The Solution

Install another PCV check valve in the air hose that is attached to the turbo suction. Orient this valve so that air can only flow INTO the turbo suction from the PCV system.

This will ensure a good vacuum is placed on the crankcase and will help throttle response, idle quality, A/F ratios, and gas mileage. I noticed an immediate improvement in all but gas mileage because the power increase made me eager to put my foot in it all the time.


If you have been suffering from poor idle quality this may be your cause.


Hope this helps.

Dominic
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Old 02-05-2004, 05:18 AM   #2
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ummm unless you have a swapped car there is no way that the "unmetered" air you speak of is affecting your car since it's a Speed Density(MAP) system. You are right on about the PCV system under boost but in a way incorrect what you should be saying is that the Hose coming off the Crankcase(not hte valve covers) be connect directly in front of the turbo and the hoses attached to the valve covers be attached right at the base of the air filter(approx 1' upstream of the PCV outlet hose), doing so will pull enough vacuum to prevent crankcase pressure from increasing to the point of seal failures on boost.

Jeremy
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Old 02-05-2004, 01:20 PM   #3
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First off, don't come to my post trying to discredit anything I am saying.

I can't tell by your description what you are trying to explain. Regardless if a pipe connects 1ft or 10ft down on the same hose, it doesn't matter. When it comes to flow it's going to be the same.
However, maybe un-metered may have been a bad term. Regardless, the extra airflow isn't designed to be there. It throws off what the car is supposed to compensate for with fuel and idle control via the ICS and air assist.
Also, why don't you go pull off a hose on your intake. Your "speed density system" isn't going to do a very good job compensating because it's a godamn vacuum leak.

Also, if you read again you'll notice that I said the system works fine under boost. What I said was that the vacuum region isn't as effective. Not to the point of seal failure, but just reducing engine efficiency.

I'm providing ACCURATE information here to benifit other owners of turbo kits. If you don't like what I have to say, don't say anything. I don't need your childish "I'm smarter than you" d*ck swinging crap.

Thank you.

Last edited by ImprezaRSX; 02-05-2004 at 01:27 PM.
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Old 02-05-2004, 02:04 PM   #4
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not trying to be a dick but your car is DESIGNED to have that Vacuum Leak, what do you think a PCV system is, a controlled Vacuum leak. You shouldn't be so up tight, i'm not trying to discredit you, and FWIW there is more of a vacuum right at the inlet of the turbo housing then 1 foot upstream of it, that's because of physics, the air speeds up there causing a greater Vacuum draw.

Anyhow have fun, peace.
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Old 02-05-2004, 02:06 PM   #5
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Wow, a little hostility there.

My car runs just fine directly out of the throttle body, no idea what you're trying to prove about a "vaccum leak".

Regardless, if you use sense, you'll realize that there is little to no vacuum in the intake system when you're at light cruise or idle... you're just not moving enough air to cause any negative pressure.

The tract between the turbo and throttle body is only under very slight vacuum at any time.

The tract between filter and turbo is under vacuum only when under decent amounts of load.


If you really want to get vacuum in your crankcase at all times you need to set it up so that it takes vacuum from the manifold when it's at idle or low cruise, and from between the filter and turbo when above atmospheric pressure in the intake manifold.

If this is what you were trying to say, perhaps an illustration would help as your original explanation was pretty unclear.
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Old 02-05-2004, 02:11 PM   #6
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Yeah. It's weird that out of ALL the Ludespeed Kit's Tom has sold, this is the first time this has been said.

I've installed 2 and have never experienced bad idle quality. I'd recheck your car out again Dom.
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Old 02-05-2004, 02:18 PM   #7
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Dude you are on crack. As long as you're getting your MAP reading from the intake manifold is doesnt really matter if there is any number of leaks upstream of TB.

I ran a ludespeed kit and experience no problems.
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Old 02-05-2004, 02:34 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by Midwayman
Dude you are on crack. As long as you're getting your MAP reading from the intake manifold is doesnt really matter if there is any number of leaks upstream of TB.

I ran a ludespeed kit and experience no problems.

upstream or downstream. I'm talking about the intake manifold.
It does matter.

However, I'm not getting in to this with you guys.

This is getting stupid.

I didn't say that your car won't freaking idle.
I said this IMPROVES IDLE QUALITY.
Listen people!

Anything that increases vacuum on your crankcase is good.


Everyone should make steps to improving crankcase vacuum. IT CREATES POWER BY SEALING THE RINGS BETTER. Regardless of what method you have to use.

I love my ludespeed kit. I have been in many verbal confrontations with people who dog this kit or Tom himself. I'm just providing you with a way to make it better.

I'm providing you ways to help improve idle, part throttle response and gas mileage. You guys want to shoot it down.

Whatever. If you guys want to keep arguing you're a bunch of dip*****s. Ask anyone who knows a damn about crankcase ventilation and they'll tell you more is better. AND THAT'S WHAT THIS DOES.

It works, it's right. Period.

Last edited by ImprezaRSX; 02-05-2004 at 02:39 PM.
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Old 02-05-2004, 02:38 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by ImprezaRSX
This is getting stupid. Period.
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Old 02-05-2004, 02:51 PM   #10
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You have shown repeatedly that you have no clue how a speed density system works. It doesnt care about leaks as long as they arent between the map sensor and the cylinders. Map systems are actually excellent at compensating as long as you arent changing the VE of the engine. Please tell me where the intake manifold is leaking on a ludespeed kit? Im really interested to hear what you make up.

Comparing the ludespeed crankcase vents to the stock ones, I have a really hard time seeing where you are getting your panties in a bunch. Both locations will see slight vacuum under load, and pretty close to atmosphere at idle and cruise.
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Old 02-05-2004, 02:56 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Midwayman

Comparing the ludespeed crankcase vents to the stock ones, I have a really hard time seeing where you are getting your panties in a bunch. Both locations will see slight vacuum under load, and pretty close to atmosphere at idle and cruise.
it's not supposed to see atmoshpere at cruise.
Look I'll draw up a goddamn picture for your dumb ass then I'll post it.

I know EXACTLY how a speed density system works. That's not the point.
the point is the quantity of vacuum! Not MAP, not MAF, not freaking carburation.

VACUUM!!!!!

in a stock car, where does the air come from? blow by. THAT's IT. It's a closed, sealed system.

However, when you add a hose that goes directly to atmosphere you eliminate the ability to draw a vacuum on anything. Do you ear pop when you start your car? OF COURSE NOT. But your car is attempting to draw a vacuum on the atmosphere NOT an eclosed crankcase like it should be!

Does anyone here know anything about fluid flow?
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Old 02-05-2004, 03:08 PM   #12
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"in a stock car, where does the air come from? blow by. THAT's IT. It's a closed, sealed system."

Lots of places upto the the airfilter really. lots of leaks and holes in the intake tract.

"However, when you add a hose that goes directly to atmosphere you eliminate the ability to draw a vacuum on anything. Do you ear pop when you start your car? OF COURSE NOT. But your car is attempting to draw a vacuum on the atmosphere NOT an eclosed crankcase like it should be!"

You are on crack. There is still the filter and a bit of tube between the crankcase and the atmosphere. Just the same as the stock car.

Does anyone here know anything about fluid flow?

Yes, and apparently more than you.
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Old 02-05-2004, 03:10 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Midwayman
"in a stock car, where does the air come from? blow by. THAT's IT. It's a closed, sealed system."

Lots of places upto the the airfilter really. lots of leaks and holes in the intake tract.

"However, when you add a hose that goes directly to atmosphere you eliminate the ability to draw a vacuum on anything. Do you ear pop when you start your car? OF COURSE NOT. But your car is attempting to draw a vacuum on the atmosphere NOT an eclosed crankcase like it should be!"

You are on crack. There is still the filter and a bit of tube between the crankcase and the atmosphere. Just the same as the stock car.

Does anyone here know anything about fluid flow?

Yes, and apparently more than you.


/me don't understand PCV system or why 02+ models must throw check engine lights when a leak is detected
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Old 02-05-2004, 03:12 PM   #14
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ImprezaRSX
You have a webcam?
I wanna watch your head explode as you type your next message...
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Old 02-05-2004, 03:17 PM   #15
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what the hell? if i were babbling like this id be banned

y dont u guys just give up, who cares, if they dont wanna improve idle through your method <which i dont understand yet, i admit> dont worry about it

lets calm down and answer other questions
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Old 02-05-2004, 03:17 PM   #16
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Like a big zit popping I bet!
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Old 02-05-2004, 03:20 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by ImprezaRSX
I don't need your childish "I'm smarter than you" d*ck swinging crap.

But what if they are? Can we at least consider the possibility?

Eddy
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Old 02-05-2004, 03:28 PM   #18
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You know, I think this is a massive communication error, or something along those lines. It sounds like pretty much everyone is on the same line of thought, just that ImprezaRSX just isn't describing what he is thinking correctly.

I'm going to guess there is still potential to this thread, but if any more flaming comes about, I'll just close it as it apparently has nothing good about to become of it.
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Old 02-05-2004, 03:36 PM   #19
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I Improved my idle quality!

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Old 02-05-2004, 03:42 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Midwayman
I Improved my idle quality!

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!

--------------------------------

ImprezaRSX: You sir are a tool and arrogant... and in light of your outbursts, a child.

Don't like that? Bring it... Oh wait... you said you were done then proceeded to keep going after you said you were done.

Why am I being a prick here? Because you deserve it... thank you, drive through!

Jorge (RiftsWRX)
www.ProjectWRX.com
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Old 02-05-2004, 03:45 PM   #21
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Default Buajajaja

BUajajajjaajjaaaaaaaaaa LMAO
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