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Old 02-12-2004, 09:34 AM   #1
F22-Raptor
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Default A little help please. Gettin a few counts of knock. Here is my AFR etc

The difference of course is the weather. My boost isnt spiking but the dyno of course was inside about 60 degrees whereas outside right now it is about 30 and down. I am getting knock about 5800 RPM I have tried adding a point of fuel and pulling timing up to 2 degrees. Should I keep going? here is my AFR from my dyno run and my logs.




RPM MAP MAF TPS Site Count AFR Ign#1 Inj#1 Ign Fuel Boost MAF
psia V % deg duty deg % (OL) V
4403 +14.3 4.0 61 90 00 14.2 +13.1 74.0 +19.8 -5.4 ECU. 3.7
4668 +15.9 4.0 60 90 00 rich +14.2 78.0 +22.4 -5.2 ECU. 3.8
4823 +17.0 4.1 66 90 00 rich +16.4 83.0 +23.0 -4.9 ECU. 3.9
5089 +17.6 4.1 67 100 00 rich +17.9 86.0 +23.0 -4.8 ECU. 4.0
5385 +17.2 4.2 67 100 00 rich +19.1 91.0 +23.0 -4.8 ECU. 4.0
5546 +18.2 4.2 68 100 00 rich +20.5 93.0 +23.0 -4.9 ECU. 4.0
5707 +18.0 4.3 67 100 00 rich +21.8 93.0 +23.0 -4.9 ECU. 4.1
5952 +17.2 4.3 68 90 00 rich +22.7 94.0 +24.1 -4.9 ECU. 4.1
6161 +16.8 4.3 67 80 00 rich +23.9 95.0 +25.0 -4.0 ECU. 4.2
6349 +15.5 4.3 65 80 00 rich +26.2 97.0 +25.0 -4.0 ECU. 4.2
6574 +14.9 4.3 63 80 00 rich +26.8 99.0 +25.3 -3.8 ECU. 4.2
6561 +13.7 4.0 23 00 00 rich +41.4 31.0 ECU. -5.5 ECU. 2.8
6435 +7.8 2.3 0 00 00 rich +10.8 9.0 ECU. -5.5 ECU. 2.0
6093 +1.5 2.2 0 00 00 14.0 +10.8 9.0 ECU. -5.5 ECU. 2.1
5299 -2.8 3.7 76 10 00 24.2 +21.5 44.0 ECU. -6.3 ECU. 3.5
5151 -3.2 4.0 95 20 00 rich +23.1 67.0 ECU. -6.2 43.40 3.8
4859 +2.9 4.2 95 70 00 rich +14.8 88.0 +23.0 -4.7 45.00 3.9
4938 +10.0 4.1 95 90 00 rich +16.9 85.0 +23.0 -5.2 45.00 3.9
5027 +14.9 4.1 94 90 00 rich +17.2 87.0 +23.0 -5.2 43.40 3.9
5128 +17.0 4.2 95 90 00 rich +18.6 87.0 +23.0 -5.3 43.40 4.0
5224 +17.6 4.2 94 90 00 rich +19.1 87.0 +23.0 -5.3 43.40 4.0
5316 +17.2 4.2 95 90 00 rich +20.0 89.0 +23.0 -5.3 43.40 4.0
5393 +17.2 4.2 94 90 00 rich +20.9 90.0 +23.0 -5.3 43.50 4.0
5518 +17.0 4.3 95 90 00 rich +21.2 91.0 +23.0 -5.3 43.50 4.0
5698 +17.2 4.3 94 100 00 rich +21.6 92.0 +23.0 -4.8 43.50 4.1
5777 +18.0 4.3 94 100 00 rich +22.3 93.0 +23.0 -5.0 43.50 4.0
5847 +18.2 4.3 94 100 00 rich +23.1 93.0 +24.0 -4.4 52.30 4.1
5817 +18.0 4.1 34 00 01 rich +25.0 27.0 ECU. -5.5 ECU. 3.5
6071 +12.5 2.2 0 00 00 rich +10.7 10.0 ECU. -5.5 ECU. 2.0

RPM MAP MAF TPS Site Count AFR Ign#1 Inj#1 Ign Fuel Boost MAF
psia V % deg duty deg % (OL) V
3086 -9.6 2.1 8 00 00 13.6 +38.7 7.0 ECU. -5.5 ECU. 2.0
3124 -8.9 2.2 10 00 00 13.9 +40.1 8.0 ECU. -5.5 ECU. 2.0
3195 -8.3 2.6 21 00 00 12.8 +36.3 12.0 ECU. -5.5 ECU. 2.5
3242 -6.7 2.7 31 00 00 14.6 +32.4 16.0 ECU. -5.5 ECU. 2.6
3340 -4.3 2.8 35 00 00 13.5 +32.5 17.0 ECU. -5.5 ECU. 2.7
3439 -2.4 2.9 41 00 00 13.2 +31.8 5.0 ECU. -5.5 ECU. 2.8
3546 -0.2 3.1 51 00 00 12.1 +31.2 20.0 ECU. -5.5 ECU. 2.9
3683 +1.7 3.2 58 00 00 13.6 +29.6 25.0 ECU. -5.5 ECU. 3.2
3921 +3.7 3.4 66 40 00 rich +23.1 34.0 ECU. -4.5 ECU. 3.3
4079 +6.2 3.6 70 50 00 rich +18.7 49.0 ECU. -4.9 43.60 3.6
4329 +9.0 4.0 74 60 00 rich +14.1 69.0 ECU. -5.3 44.90 3.8
4528 +12.1 4.0 76 80 00 rich +13.5 74.0 +21.6 -5.5 45.00 3.7
4816 +14.7 4.0 80 90 00 rich +17.6 75.0 +23.0 -5.5 45.00 3.8
5012 +15.9 4.1 88 90 00 12.4 +17.6 79.0 +23.0 -6.2 43.40 3.9
5282 +17.0 4.2 90 90 00 rich +18.8 83.0 +23.0 -6.3 43.40 4.0
5527 +16.6 4.2 96 90 00 rich +20.3 84.0 +23.0 -6.3 43.50 4.0
5757 +16.6 4.3 98 90 05 rich +23.6 87.0 +15.1 -6.3 52.30 4.0
6082 +16.8 4.3 98 90 00 rich +23.6 89.0 +15.8 -5.4 42.30 4.0
6172 +16.6 4.3 98 90 00 rich +26.6 90.0 +24.9 -5.0 42.30 4.1
6349 +16.8 4.3 97 90 00 rich +27.0 91.0 +25.0 -5.1 42.30 4.1
6548 +16.1 4.3 88 80 00 rich +27.5 92.0 +25.5 -4.8 42.30 4.1
6802 +16.1 4.2 39 00 00 rich +37.4 32.0 ECU. -5.5 ECU. 2.8
6613 +9.8 2.2 0 00 00 12.1 +10.7 33.0 ECU. -5.5 ECU. 2.0
6127 +3.3 2.2 0 00 00 lean +10.8 33.0 ECU. -5.5 ECU. 2.0
5767 -3.2 2.1 0 00 00 24.2 +11.7 68.0 ECU. -5.5 ECU. 2.2
5027 -8.3 3.4 51 00 00 23.7 +22.0 33.0 ECU. -5.5 ECU. 3.3
4967 -5.5 3.6 99 10 00 rich +25.8 48.0 ECU. -5.7 45.00 3.5
4923 -0.2 4.0 99 40 00 rich +21.6 70.0 ECU. -6.2 43.40 3.9
5035 +7.4 4.2 98 80 11 rich +17.0 81.0 +15.0 -6.2 43.40 3.9
5144 +12.7 4.1 98 90 00 rich +18.1 80.0 +15.0 -6.2 43.40 3.9
5307 +15.5 4.2 98 80 00 rich +18.6 82.0 +15.0 -6.3 43.40 3.9
5420 +17.2 4.2 98 90 00 rich +18.8 82.0 +23.0 -6.3 43.40 3.9
5446 +16.4 4.2 98 90 00 rich +19.5 83.0 +23.0 -6.3 43.40 3.9
5668 +17.4 4.2 98 100 00 rich +20.2 85.0 +23.0 -5.8 43.50 4.0
5698 +18.2 4.2 74 100 00 rich +24.8 84.0 +23.0 -5.9 43.50 3.7
5592 +14.1 2.1 0 00 00 rich +10.9 27.0 ECU. -5.5 ECU. 2.0
5324 +7.4 2.1 0 00 00 lean +11.0 27.0 ECU. -5.5 ECU. 2.0

All this was done with a slightly larger than 18g turbo , Sti Injectors, Warlboro 342. I was running 93 octane
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Old 02-12-2004, 09:50 AM   #2
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Most people run a more rich AFR, and in your logs it seems you have one count of knock during a shift (add some fuel into the 0%) and the other time you have a pretty quick jump in timing and 15* at that rpm & boost is aggressive (some would say).
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Old 02-12-2004, 10:11 AM   #3
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Thats weird my timing is set to 23 where it is 15
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Old 02-12-2004, 12:06 PM   #4
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Where it's 15, the utec is pulling timing, isn't it?
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Old 02-12-2004, 12:08 PM   #5
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yep
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Old 02-12-2004, 12:17 PM   #6
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So you are running 23 degrees of advance and approx. 18 psi of boost at approx. 11.7:1?
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Old 02-12-2004, 12:56 PM   #7
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Yeah.
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Old 02-12-2004, 01:49 PM   #8
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I never go over 10.8 to 11.0 at that boost level. Do you have a wideband? The first thing I would do it pull timing back. Then I would work the a/f ratio down to an even 11.0. Then I would slowly add timing back.
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Old 02-12-2004, 02:56 PM   #9
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I had called up TurboXS and then I slowly started working through this. At 5k-7k I added a point of fuel then I pulled timing back on the third try 3 degrees. That seems to have killed it. Tho it seems just a tad bit slower. What turbo are you running Recursion? I don't have a wideband yet. So I am just trying to make sure the stock is just to the point where it reads rich right before 11.2-11.5 I originally got this done on a dyno but it was about 50 or so in the garage where outside right now it is about 15-20. So hopefully I have killed it now (the knock that is).
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Old 02-13-2004, 08:01 AM   #10
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I'm running a vf22 with a fuel only computer. I use a very accurate wideband to do my tuning. Right now I'm working out how much boost I can run with no timing control. So far, it has worked out very well.
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Old 02-13-2004, 08:18 AM   #11
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Sweet. I am contemplating letting the ECU run all the timing between 5-7k I think I have got rid of all the knock except during a fast gear drop and flooring it. Temps are supposed to rise back up again here this week so I should be fine. I am spiking at 19 psi actually according to my ECU so maybe that was why I was getting some knock as well. Dang cold weather. Where are you at on your VF22?
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Old 02-13-2004, 11:30 AM   #12
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Sounds like you made some progress but I will offer some help. Your IDC's are out of line and thats why that extra point of fuel you added did not fix that lean spot. The turbo is hitting the MAF up to 4.3 volts which is not really that much. What I suggest you do is first off get a WB. Once you have one I suggest you do the Fuel pressure regulator mod. Adding 10 psi of static pressure will drop those AFR's right down a solid point at least.. Then remove the fuel back to 11 to 1 or so depending the fuel used. You will gain headroom in your IDC's(lower) and you will get your fuel control back. 23-25 degrees of advance is what I would call "alot" on pumpf fuel and that much boost. 9 times out of 10 its the advance that kills the motor.. Its almost never the boost pressure. Food for thought

Cya

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Old 02-13-2004, 01:42 PM   #13
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So currently I have max 23 degrees timing at around 6500-7k is that low enough? I am not getting any knock on full throttle runs but I am getting just a touch if I downshift and floor it.
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Old 02-13-2004, 02:04 PM   #14
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I agree with the wideband statement above. I know where to get a really good one too ;-)
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Old 02-13-2004, 03:17 PM   #15
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Yeah but you are looking for more than I want to spend Yes I know it is a good deal but I need to recover from the 2500 I just spent getting to Mike's Stg4 Unless you are going to part with it for an insanely low price
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Old 02-15-2004, 09:11 PM   #16
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Hey recursian. I was wondering I you would help me tune my car?
I am local atlanta area. I have my own TXS wideband. I am in real need to get some road tuning done since I just added a header to my stage 4 w/ fmic.

Thanks
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Old 02-16-2004, 07:24 AM   #17
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Can you list all of your mods? What engine management are you using? Have you had it dyno tuned before?

Chris
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Old 02-16-2004, 10:17 AM   #18
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Quote:
I am contemplating letting the ECU run all the timing between 5-7k
Then why get the utec? Do you really think this is a good idea? Neither of your knocks were do to fueling(imo). They both were because the timing shifted to much when the ecu took control of the timing. Richenning the fuel mixture upto 11 to 1 might help, but the timing is the problem. People commonly call this problem "shift knock" and if you do a search for it on wrxhackers, you'll probably be able to figure out how to fix it.

Quote:
5777 +18.0 4.3 94 100 00 rich +22.3 93.0 +23.0 -5.0 43.50 4.0
5847 +18.2 4.3 94 100 00 rich +23.1 93.0 +24.0 -4.4 52.30 4.1
5817 +18.0 4.1 34 00 01 rich +25.0 27.0 ECU. -5.5 ECU. 3.5
6071 +12.5 2.2 0 00 00 rich +10.7 10.0 ECU. -5.5 ECU. 2.0
see the timing go up 2 degress in less then 100 rpm?(while taking the foot off the throttle)

Quote:
5767 -3.2 2.1 0 00 00 24.2 +11.7 68.0 ECU. -5.5 ECU. 2.2
5027 -8.3 3.4 51 00 00 23.7 +22.0 33.0 ECU. -5.5 ECU. 3.3
4967 -5.5 3.6 99 10 00 rich [b]+25.8[b] 48.0 ECU. -5.7 45.00 3.5
4923 -0.2 4.0 99 40 00 rich [b]+21.6[b] 70.0 ECU. -6.2 43.40 3.9
5035 +7.4 4.2 98 80 11 rich [b]+17.0[b] 81.0 +15.0 -6.2 43.40 3.9
5144 +12.7 4.1 98 90 00 rich +18.1 80.0 +15.0 -6.2 43.40 3.9
5307 +15.5 4.2 98 80 00 rich +18.6 82.0 +15.0 -6.3 43.40 3.9
See the timing jumpin around then go way down when the load biulds? Shift knock..... The a/f ratio could probably be a bit richer, but I really don't think it's causing the problem. This is what my timing looks like between shifts(after fixing shift knock).

Quote:
2978 -1.2 2.8 36 00 00 W/B +32.3 16.0 ECU. -5.5 ECU. 2.7 13.95
3086 +1.0 2.9 47 00 00 W/B +31.2 10.0 ECU. -5.5 ECU. 2.8 14.15
3214 +2.7 3.0 77 20 00 W/B +28.2 22.0 +24.0 -3.2 350.00 3.0 14.49
3356 +4.2 3.1 103 30 00 W/B +24.3 28.0 +22.5 -1.9 350.00 3.1 14.22
3479 +5.7 3.3 103 40 00 W/B +19.7 32.0 +21.0 -2.1 350.00 3.3 13.28
3679 +7.4 3.5 103 50 00 W/B +18.2 40.0 +18.3 -2.5 350.00 3.4 12.30
3885 +9.6 3.5 103 60 00 W/B +16.3 50.0 +18.0 -2.8 350.00 3.5 11.80
4100 +11.7 3.6 103 70 00 W/B +16.8 55.0 +17.2 -3.2 350.00 3.6 11.39
4284 +13.7 3.8 103 80 00 W/B +16.7 57.0 +18.0 -3.8 350.00 3.5 10.95
4510 +15.2 3.8 103 80 00 W/B +16.7 61.0 +19.0 -4.3 350.00 3.7 10.83
4761 +15.8 3.9 103 80 00 W/B +18.4 64.0 +19.0 -4.9 350.00 3.7 10.87
4866 +16.2 3.9 103 80 00 W/B +21.5 67.0 +19.5 -4.9 350.00 3.8 10.95
5104 +16.5 4.0 103 80 00 W/B +24.0 70.0 +20.0 -5.0 350.00 3.8 10.96
5307 +16.7 4.1 103 80 00 W/B +24.0 75.0 +20.3 -5.4 300.00 3.9 10.93
5491 +16.5 4.1 103 80 00 W/B +24.3 77.0 +21.0 -5.5 300.00 3.9 10.95
5640 +16.0 4.1 103 70 00 W/B +23.6 79.0 +21.7 -5.9 300.00 3.9 10.95
5963 +15.8 4.2 103 80 00 W/B +24.8 81.0 +21.9 -6.1 250.00 4.0 10.90
6184 +15.2 4.2 103 70 00 W/B +24.7 83.0 +22.5 -6.2 250.00 4.0 10.87
6422 +15.2 4.2 103 70 00 W/B +28.5 85.0 +23.0 -6.2 250.00 4.0 10.87
6535 +15.0 4.4 103 70 00 W/B +28.7 88.0 +23.0 -5.9 250.00 4.0 10.86
6930 +14.7 4.3 103 70 00 W/B +29.1 87.0 +23.5 -5.9 250.00 4.0 10.83
6761 +14.7 4.3 103 70 00 W/B +29.3 86.0 +23.9 -5.8 250.00 4.0 10.76
7293 +12.6 2.4 0 00 00 W/B +5.5 34.0 +21.0 -5.1 ECU. 3.1 10.80
6944 +6.4 2.5 0 00 00 W/B +10.3 34.0 +21.0 -5.4 ECU. 2.3 11.11
6410 -0.1 2.4 1 00 00 W/B +41.2 13.0 +21.0 -5.5 ECU. 2.3 12.92
6361 -5.7 2.9 22 00 00 W/B +41.3 25.0 +21.0 -5.5 ECU. 3.1 17.72
6775 -7.2 3.8 49 00 00 W/B +39.4 56.0 +21.0 -5.5 ECU. 3.8 20.53
6361 -2.5 4.2 90 30 00 W/B +31.1 81.0 +22.7 -5.9 ECU. 3.9 16.36
5602 +3.8 4.2 103 60 00 W/B +24.9 78.0 +21.0 -5.5 300.00 3.9 13.28
5144 +9.6 4.0 103 70 00 W/B +24.3 72.0 +20.6 -5.1 350.00 3.8 12.02
5249 +13.7 4.0 103 80 00 W/B +23.8 74.0 +20.0 -5.5 300.00 3.8 11.24
5316 +15.8 4.1 103 80 00 W/B +24.1 74.0 +20.0 -5.2 300.00 3.9 10.83
5359 +16.5 4.1 103 80 00 W/B +24.6 75.0 +20.5 -5.4 300.00 3.9 10.76
5473 +16.9 4.1 103 80 00 W/B +24.5 77.0 +20.9 -5.5 300.00 3.9 10.87
5630 +16.7 4.1 103 80 00 W/B +24.8 78.0 +21.0 -5.7 300.00 3.9 10.90
5678 +16.5 4.2 103 80 00 W/B +24.8 80.0 +21.0 -5.7 300.00 3.9 10.93
5747 +15.8 4.2 103 70 00 W/B +23.9 80.0 +22.0 -6.0 250.00 3.9 10.99
5920 +15.8 4.2 103 80 00 W/B +24.3 80.0 +21.1 -6.1 250.00 3.9 11.02
5920 +15.8 4.2 103 80 00 W/B +24.7 81.0 +21.8 -6.0 250.00 3.9 11.01
6093 +15.8 4.2 103 80 00 W/B +24.9 82.0 +22.0 -6.2 250.00 4.0 10.99
6127 +16.5 4.2 103 80 00 W/B +24.7 83.0 +22.0 -6.2 250.00 4.0 10.99
6337 +15.6 4.2 103 70 00 W/B +24.9 83.0 +22.6 -6.3 250.00 4.0 10.99
6325 +15.6 4.3 103 70 00 W/B +27.4 85.0 +23.0 -6.3 250.00 4.0 11.02
6410 +16.2 4.3 103 80 00 W/B +27.6 85.0 +22.2 -6.2 250.00 4.0 11.06
6561 +16.2 4.3 103 80 00 W/B +28.0 85.0 +23.0 -6.0 250.00 4.0 11.06
6535 +16.9 4.3 103 80 00 W/B +27.5 87.0 +23.0 -6.1 250.00 4.0 11.06
6523 +17.3 4.3 103 80 00 W/B +29.0 86.0 +23.0 -6.0 250.00 4.0 11.06
7199 +15.8 4.1 17 00 00 W/B +36.9 33.0 +21.0 -5.1 ECU. 3.4 11.02
6988 +9.4 2.5 0 00 00 W/B +10.6 3.0 +21.0 -5.5 ECU. 2.4 10.99
6472 +2.5 2.4 0 00 00 W/B +10.9 3.0 +21.0 -5.5 ECU. 2.2 12.02
5889 -4.6 2.3 0 00 00 W/B +11.1 3.0 +20.3 -5.5 ECU. 2.1 14.22
5446 -10.4 2.2 1 00 00 W/B +13.9 9.0 +20.0 -5.5 ECU. 2.1 22.62
see how in this log the ecu doesn't take control of timing during the shift, and for a bit after the pull? See how the ecu timing is really advanced and could have probably caused a knock in this log if it took control of timing?

peace

Last edited by hippy; 02-16-2004 at 10:42 AM.
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Old 02-16-2004, 11:28 AM   #19
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hmm cool I will check into this. Thanks.
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Old 02-16-2004, 01:48 PM   #20
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You should probably go ahead and take the 30 seconds to calibrate your tps while you are at it.
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Old 02-16-2004, 03:04 PM   #21
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Yeah I did Thanks
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