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Old 02-12-2004, 01:38 PM   #1
makofoto
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Default AutoX, ABS or No ABS?

Last weekend I drove my first AutoX with the ABS fuse pulled. It was a bumpy course ... and I was told it was better to run without ABS.

It was the first time in MANY years driving without ABS ... and so I'm having to re-learn brake modulation ...

But on a smooth course ... would ABS have some things going for it?
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Old 02-12-2004, 02:56 PM   #2
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Default Re: AutoX, ABS or No ABS?

Quote:
Originally posted by makofoto
Last weekend I drove my first AutoX with the ABS fuse pulled. It was a bumpy course ... and I was told it was better to run without ABS.

It was the first time in MANY years driving without ABS ... and so I'm having to re-learn brake modulation ...

But on a smooth course ... would ABS have some things going for it?

the best autocross driver I know, Chris Ramey, seems to not really care whether or not its on.

which makes some sense, if you are capable of threshold braking, you want engage the ABS anyway.

other very good (but not as good as chris) autocrossers I know consider ABS to be a huge advantage.
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Old 02-12-2004, 03:13 PM   #3
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Not to mention in many if not most auto-x courses the very best drivers are good LEFT foot brakers /trail brakers who rarely even use full braking.....
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Old 02-12-2004, 04:03 PM   #4
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If I make a mistake with braking, I'd rather have ABS kick in than flatspot an expensive R tire.
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Old 02-12-2004, 04:34 PM   #5
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Ive only had ABS kick on once while autocrossing... It shouldnt really matter much, because you are SUPPOSED to only brake before the corner
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Old 02-12-2004, 04:35 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by BriDrive
Not to mention in many if not most auto-x courses the very best drivers are good LEFT foot brakers /trail brakers who rarely even use full braking.....
Riiiight. Get your facts right chief Lots of great autox drivers break with their right foot

ABS is an advantage in the WRX. It saves you a lot of tires.

-Tom
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Old 02-12-2004, 04:40 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by trhoppe
Riiiight. Get your facts right chief Lots of great autox drivers break with their right foot

ABS is an advantage in the WRX. It saves you a lot of tires.

-Tom
or break with their left foot but apply full braking force all the time =)
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Old 02-12-2004, 04:43 PM   #8
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On. I rarely feel the ABS kick in while auto-xing and when it does I'm usually glad it did. I've heard someone say before that nobody can modulate the brakes faster than ABS can.
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Old 02-12-2004, 04:46 PM   #9
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I was an extreme threshold braker in my Integra as it's ABS was horrible and slow. I could trailbrake, left foot brake ( I am more of a right foot braker overall ) fine in the car as long as I NEVER touched the ABS.

The STi? I have yet to get it to an autox yet (they keep getting canceled on me ), but I can tell you already the ABS feel incredible. Will I rely on it on course? No. Will I be upset if I slip into it by mistake every now and then? no-at-all!


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Old 02-12-2004, 04:47 PM   #10
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Is the stopping distance with ABS longer when compared to proper threshold braking?
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Old 02-12-2004, 04:48 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by nate49509
I've heard someone say before that nobody can modulate the brakes faster than ABS can.
They never dove my Integra!! Seasons cycle faster than that car's ABS!!!

-Matt
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Old 02-12-2004, 04:51 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by ITWRX4ME
Is the stopping distance with ABS longer when compared to proper threshold braking?
yes

but how many people can threshold brake that well? I do not know.
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Old 02-12-2004, 04:53 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by ITWRX4ME
Is the stopping distance with ABS longer when compared to proper threshold braking?
I'm a step behind on these replies!

In theory perfect threshold braking will ALWAYS be better then ABS. With perfect Threshold braking the wheels will NEVER lock. ABS Has to sense the lock and release the wheel. The good systems cycle really quick while maintaining balance. Nobody is perfect and with an average driver versus a good car? No contest... ABS will give better stopping distances.

-Matt
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Old 02-12-2004, 04:59 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Watkinsm3
I'm a step behind on these replies!

In theory perfect threshold braking will ALWAYS be better then ABS. With perfect Threshold braking the wheels will NEVER lock. ABS Has to sense the lock and release the wheel. The good systems cycle really quick while maintaining balance. Nobody is perfect and with an average driver versus a good car? No contest... ABS will give better stopping distances.

-Matt
I agree very well said.
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Old 02-12-2004, 05:06 PM   #15
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Errr....trhoppe.....I....uhhh.....don't want to jinx you....I'll wait to see the results out of Atlanta.....but......I'm bettin MK is gonna left foot beat you
Joking aside, I of course realize right footers are capable of as much speed....
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Old 02-12-2004, 05:11 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by BriDrive
Errr....trhoppe.....I....uhhh.....don't want to jinx you....I'll wait to see the results out of Atlanta.....but......I'm bettin MK is gonna left foot beat you
Joking aside, I of course realize right footers are capable of as much speed....
Good Try there I won't be in atlanta because the tranny blew, but it will be interesting to see if mikey can be on pace

-Tom
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Old 02-12-2004, 05:18 PM   #17
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I think the WRX ABS is particularly sensitive and goes into ABS much too early.
I always disable ABS.
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Old 02-12-2004, 05:19 PM   #18
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Oops, sorry about that...I did not know.......
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Old 02-12-2004, 05:40 PM   #19
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Auto-X: ABS On
Rally-X: ABS Off (goes for any slippery surface)
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Old 02-12-2004, 07:19 PM   #20
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Quote:
I think the WRX ABS is particularly sensitive and goes into ABS much too early.
My experience is that it only does that when you hit a bump under braking. I have certainly experienced that, but I've never had ABS kick in too early on flat tarmac.

I think the original poster talked about an autox course with bumpy corner approaches - that could be an interesting challenge!
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Old 02-12-2004, 07:33 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by leecea
My experience is that it only does that when you hit a bump under braking. I have certainly experienced that, but I've never had ABS kick in too early on flat tarmac.

I think the original poster talked about an autox course with bumpy corner approaches - that could be an interesting challenge!
Good point.
As a matter of fact I drove the same course as Makofoto and there was a crest of sorts right bfore a dip and then a pretty hard left. It wasn't easy to wait for the car to settle after the dip and then brake. I locked em' up for a sec in that spot.
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Old 02-12-2004, 07:33 PM   #22
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So you mean to tell me all that trouble I went through to make an ABS cutoff switch was for nothing!?
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Old 02-12-2004, 07:40 PM   #23
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I've driven the course that Mako (original poster) is referring to. I usually run auto-x with the abs enabled but the surface he recently ran is rough and bumpy, has some small holes, and actually runs through some small "valleys", kind of like a big gentle gutter in the street. There's a tendency on this course to easily endup with a wheel in the air for a sec and that's where abs starts to be a problem. (Mako, maybe you can repost that pic you have with your wheel in the air in this thread, it'll give folks an idea of the the surface I'm trying to describe)

Anyhow, on this particular course, my abs kicks in way too much and ruins my left-foot braking efforts. I've read that on rough surfaces, abs can actually degrade braking distances, so that's why I suggested he pull the fuse.

Its all driver preference in the end. I left foot brake and trail brake and I have more success that way then using just my right foot for both gas and brake.

Lots of good points made in this thread. Thanks.

-Mark
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Old 02-12-2004, 07:49 PM   #24
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This bump was at the exit of a corner ... but ... you get the idea ...
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Old 02-12-2004, 08:06 PM   #25
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A better example from the same course ... very stiffely sprung VW ... pitching up after rebounding going through the "ditch." Of course I don't believe that VW had any ABS to worry about ....

See how low that car in the background is ... the "ditch" flows to that low point.
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