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Old 09-22-2004, 01:50 PM   #76
Tom Bombadill
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Default Coolant @ 30k

Did my 30k change in the FXT this past weekend and thought I might add a helpful point or two.

Before refilling, pre-mix your coolant and water.
This will cut down on foaming.

When refilling, disconnect the upper radiator hose at the top of the radiator.
This allows the trapped air to float out nice and easy when pouring in your mixture.

With this method I was able to fill the system with no air and no system "burping".
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Old 10-21-2004, 08:11 AM   #77
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i've got one question that's not completely answered... how important is it for the coolant to be silicatre free? the reason i ask is that i have 1 brand new bottle of saab cooland and 1 new bottle of volvo coolant in my garage and i'd hate for them to go to waste. both are phosphate free but list silicates towards the end of the ingredient list. all saab and volvo engines are aluminum and most are turbo, i don't see any real difference between them and the subie
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Old 10-21-2004, 08:17 AM   #78
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I would not second guess Subaru to save a few bucks on some coolant. If they specify no silicates or phosphates there must be a good reason. It's your car, but if I were you I'd spend a few more $ and get the right stuff.
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Old 10-21-2004, 07:24 PM   #79
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well i know what the phosphates do but what about the silicates? its not really a question of saving money, it's more like not wasting what i already have
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Old 10-21-2004, 07:30 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yo vanilla
well i know what the phosphates do but what about the silicates? its not really a question of saving money, it's more like not wasting what i already have
You have to read the whole first post.

"Silicates act as a cleaner, but also eat away at water pumps and seals."
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Old 10-21-2004, 08:12 PM   #81
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Does the WRX cooling system require the additive when replacing the coolant like in the 2.5 phase II?
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Old 10-21-2004, 08:16 PM   #82
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well i did read the whole thread, but one of the techs at my shop said it lubricated the water pump. whoever posted the claim about eating seals didnt leave any info to back it up, so who do you believe? i can't imagine saab or volvo using coolant that hurts their equipment, and they say on the bottle "meets requirements of all of todays performance cars
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Old 10-21-2004, 08:39 PM   #83
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http://www.morrowmarsh.ca/concours/t...es/coolant.htm

Quote:
Courtesy of Texaco Magazine LUBRICATION,Copyright Texaco Inc.
"Nitrates provide aluminum protection, while silicates provide general corrosion protection and act as a deterrent to cavitation of aluminum coolant pumps." "Silicates, despite their disadvantages, remained the inhibitor of choice for aluminum protection; silicate stabilizers have alleviated some of the problems with polymerization and precipitation of these chemicals. Disodium sebacate, the sodium salt of a dibasic carboxylic acid, was found to be an effective corrosion inhibitor for both ferrous and aluminum alloys."
The full text is at: http://www.megarock.com/neaefialtis/COG%209.htm

And some more:
"Silicate is an established inhibitor of aluminum corrosion, but it tends to jell as an ingredient in antifreeze. Silicone compounds are commonly used to prevent the jelling. Union Carbide has used silicone-silicate in Prestone for years, and current formulations by the other leading makers-- Dow, Northern Petrochemical (Peak), BASF Wyandotte, and Texaco (private branders)-- also contain silicates. At present, all have aluminum protection formulas that meet GM replacement and Ford O.E. specifications." "Engine coolant should be REPLACED every two (2) years to refresh the silicates and other corrosion inhibitors contained in the coolant." "Just for the record, distilled water can cause its own problems because it has such a low pH. Water will seek its own balanced pH, and when distilled water is placed next to aluminum, it leaches the minerals it wants from the alloy and black soot forms in the coolant. That's why silicates are put in aluminum-compatible antifreeze; they're sacrificial mineral deposits." The full text is at http://www.cycoactive.com/Urabus/urabus_cooling2.html
BUT... http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/faq/faq.htm?id=41

Quote:
Thanks to 'Aprilia' from The Backroom for this.

There are currently five main types of antifreeze. In all cases the 'anti-freeze' properties last the life of the coolant - it is the various additives that deteriorate with time. These additives include anti-foaming agents, surfactants (to improve the 'wetting' of the coolant and hence give better heat transfer) and, most importantly, anti-corrosion additives.
As the range of alloys and plastics used in modern engines grows ever more complex it is important to ensure that the correct anti-freeze is used.

1. Ethylene Glycol (e.g. 'Bluecol') - this is the traditional stuff, used since the 1950's. It uses silicates to stop corrosion by passivating the metal surface. This type of anti-freeze is suitable for most European cars, but not Japanese cars. Japanese manufacturers normally recommend a low- or no-silicate formulation due to the nature of the seal materials that they use (see below).
Typical service life of 2-4 years.

2. Ethylene Glycol: Low- or no-silicate formulation. This is specified by most Japanese cars. OEM Nissan, Toyota 'red' etc. antifreezes use phosphates rather than silicates to inhibit corrosion. Silicates are abrasive and the use of high silicate antifreezes in Japanese cars may result in premature failure of seal materials.
Typical service life of 2-4 years.


3. Mono Propylene Glycol (e.g. Comma Coldstream) - this still uses silicates and is claimed to last 4 years. Mono Propylene Glycol does not conduct heat as well as Ethylene Glycol and currently carries NO recommendation from any major car manufacturer- and some actually caution against it. The main claim to fame for Mono Propylene Glycol is that its less toxic than Ethylene Glycol.
Typical service life of 2-4 years.

4. Organic Acid Technology (OAT) - e.g. GM 'DexCool'. Introduced in 1995, this is a recyclable and biodegradable anntifreeze which is based on organic acids and is silicate- and phosphate-free. However, due to the nature of the chemicals used, it can attack certain seal and gasket materials and therefore should only be used in vehicles for which it is factory specified.
OAT antifreeze MUST NOT be mixed with the types listed above - if you wish to switch to OAT type then the cooling system must first be chemically flushed.
The claimed service life of the corrosion inhibitor package is about 5 years, or 100-150,000 miles.

5. Ethylene Glycol-based 'Hybrid Organic Acid Technology' (HOAT). Uses Ethylene Glycol, but with OAT-based corrosion inhibitors and some added silicates; most usually BASF's "Glysantin" additive package is used (also known as 'G-05'). HOAT is less agressive than straight OAT anti-freeze and has better cavitation resistance. Halfords 'Advanced Antifreeze' is an HOAT formulation. Again, best to thoroughly flush your system if switching to it.
Lasts 4-5 years.

The bottom line is to refill your engine with what the factory supplied and do a flush-and-refill every 4 years maximum.
If you have a Japanese car, stick to the maker's brand since non-OEM coolants may contain higher levels of potentially damaging silicates.

If mixing your coolant from a 'concentrate' then use demineralised or distilled water (available from motor factors at around 3 for 5 litres) to make up the quantity - UK tap water often has a lot of dissolved minerals in it which can leave scale deposits inside the engine's coolant passages.

so there you all go, i guess if i need my question answered then i have to do it myself i think what i'll do is read a bottle of toyota red the next time i'm at work
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Old 10-24-2004, 10:37 PM   #84
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Cheers to you and thanks for adding wonderful info to this thread!
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Old 10-24-2004, 10:50 PM   #85
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thanks! i learned something. plus i earned one more thing - going to a competing dealership with your work shirt on is sure to get you a discount on parts! i saved a good $10-15 on a bottle of coolant, a fuel filter, an oil filter, and a bottle of the coolant conditioner .

BTW toyota red and subaru coolants are exactly the same, right down to the amount levels of ingredients, except subaru's was cheaper even with my (toyota) employee discount here's the list:

Ethelyne Glycol 107-21-1
Diethelyne Glycol 111-46-6
Water 7732-18-5
Organic Acid Salt 532-32-1
Hydrated Inorganic Salt 1310-58-3
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Old 10-24-2004, 11:00 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunner
Does the WRX cooling system require the additive when replacing the coolant like in the 2.5 phase II?
It can't hurt to use it. It's only afew dollars for a bottle and if you replace your coolant once a year it adds up to almost nothing.
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Old 10-25-2004, 07:54 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunner
Does the WRX cooling system require the additive when replacing the coolant like in the 2.5 phase II?
ALL Subarus MUST use the cooling system conditioner.
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Old 11-03-2004, 11:53 PM   #88
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I was all set to use the Peak Global on my 30K but on one of the links from yo vanilla:
Quote:
4. Organic Acid Technology (OAT) - e.g. GM 'DexCool'. Introduced in 1995, this is a recyclable and biodegradable anntifreeze which is based on organic acids and is silicate- and phosphate-free. However, due to the nature of the chemicals used, it can attack certain seal and gasket materials and therefore should only be used in vehicles for which it is factory specified.
OAT antifreeze MUST NOT be mixed with the types listed above - if you wish to switch to OAT type then the cooling system must first be chemically flushed.
The claimed service life of the corrosion inhibitor package is about 5 years, or 100-150,000 miles.
Actually, I've been topping up my coolant with that stuff. Peak claims the exact opposite of the above so it's hard to know who to believe. I'd rather play it safe and be sure so I'll stick with the factory type coolant, probably the Honda type 2 which even comes pre-mixed with demineralized water. Apparently distilled water can create its own unique problems.

Looks like I'll still have to make a trip to the Subaru dealer for that conditioner though.
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Old 11-30-2004, 06:12 PM   #89
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How is one supposed to safely and responsibly dispose of old coolant?
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Old 11-30-2004, 06:53 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banman
How is one supposed to safely and responsibly dispose of old coolant?
If you live in the city, you can just pour it down the drain. Sewage treatment plants can handle it.
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Old 12-11-2004, 06:36 PM   #91
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Peak now has a "lifetime" version of their Global coolant if you flush and fill.
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Old 12-11-2004, 06:55 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulder
The Peak Global is rated for 5/150 use only if not mixed with conventional antifreeze, if any remains in the system then it is only rated for standard drain intervals.
From my earlier post. It's not really "lifetime" but 5yr/150K is still a long time. But only if you do a complete flush, otherwise it's the same 30K as before. I wouldn't leave it in that long in any case.
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Old 12-11-2004, 08:39 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulder
From my earlier post. It's not really "lifetime" but 5yr/150K is still a long time. But only if you do a complete flush, otherwise it's the same 30K as before. I wouldn't leave it in that long in any case.
It's different than the Peak Global that's been out for a while. There's a new version of it that they claim is good for life if you do a complete flush.

I wouldn't leave it in there that long either. I saw the commercial today.

http://www.peakantifreeze.com/images...l_lifetime.pdf

http://www.peakantifreeze.com/peak_global_lifetime.html
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Old 12-11-2004, 08:49 PM   #94
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Apparently this product has replaced the previous Peak Global, which is no longer shown on their products page. So it's the same deal, standard service interval w/o a flush, lifetime (formerly 5/150) w/a flush.
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Old 12-16-2004, 05:17 PM   #95
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Interesting discussion, but why does my 05 Subaru handbook say something different? The coolant recommendation is "Subaru coolant or it's equivalent: a 50:50 mixture of soft water and ethylene glycol". No mention of additives, or approval of any of the non ethylene glycol long life mixes (Dexcool et al). And the OEM stuff already in there was clearly the standard "green" color of ethylene glycol as against the the yellow/orange of the newer coolants.


Using distilled water is the pretty much the easiest way to guarantee soft water. But that's no different from what many manufacturers have recommended for years. GM for example specifically requires asks for "preferably distilled" water on many engines, but requires it on the all-aluminum LS1/2/6 series. Equally, they specify Dexcool and not ethylene glycol, and recommend 5 year or 150,000 mile change intervals, with the rider that if you use regular antifreeze, reduce the interval to 24 months, and oh by the way, you just voided your warranty.

Last edited by rogerd; 12-16-2004 at 05:31 PM.
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Old 12-16-2004, 05:25 PM   #96
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That's because you are looking at the wrong material my friend.

http://www.subaru.com/owners/care/sc...sp?pageID=2005 is where you go, and click the link at the bottom titled "Click here for Schedule of 2005MY Federal and California Specification Vehicles". This is the MOST up to date info. Your 2005 Subaru handbook gets updates via this link and technifo.subaru.com from time to time.

If you read the Coolant FAQ, you would see that color is NOT part of the equation in coolants. It can be green or Barney Purple as there is no standard. The standard that Subaru follows is to comply with JASO M325 (Japan) and JIS K 2234 (Japan) standards.

I don't mean to sound snippy here, but I have researched this topic to the ends of the Subaru earth. ALL the info you need is contained in the first post and updated as changes happen. If you see something different, please let me know and please provide evidence to back it up.
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Old 12-16-2004, 05:53 PM   #97
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I don't believe for a moment that most Subaru owners will go to Subaru.com to see if it different from their handbook. They will go by that handbook, and in any legal argument, they will win if they followed the those written instructions. Especially as the handbook is (in this case) a brand new publication.

Subaru and other manufacturers just love you to buy their own branded oils, filters, coolants, additives, et al. Just understand that selling this stuff is a profit center for them, just as the selling of cars and parts are profit centers.

The good news is, my old Subie ran on soft water/ethylene glycol mixes for 10 years with no problems with flushes/changes about every 3 years. No cooling issues, no leaks, no deposits thrown, and at the last change it still came out green. And that's what I will run the new one on - and I will not use Dexcool or equivalent as it is not (in print) stated to be an approved coolant. And with the car under warranty, what's printed is the bible, whether it be for coolant or tranmission fluid - especially the latter given all the "shade tree" transmission lube advice that seems to be around.

Btw, my mention of color was just to distinguish the Dexcool family (yellow/orange) from the traditional green that we have all used for years.

And, whoever said put glycol down the drain is wrong - our jurisdiction, like many, many others requires it be recycled, just like engine oil.
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Old 12-16-2004, 06:04 PM   #98
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You are 100% right, but.....the conditioner was added late last year. I assume your owners manual/documentation was printed prior to the change. The reason for the online documentation is for updates. While not everyone is going to do this, I steadily trundle along and let people know that it is imperative they use the conditioner. This is because many 98-00ish Subarus blew head gaskets like crazy. This conditioner is supposed to prevent this.

I feel the same way about the coolant recycling issue myself. Who knows? Maybe in that person's city they have the new JDM water treatment plant that can handle it. I can't say, but I will echo your caution to recycle.

EDIT: Found this via a website, so it might be true in HIS area.

Regardless of the type of antifreeze you use, it should be disposed of properly. In many areas, it is okay to flush used coolant down the toilet (sanitary sewer) as long as the amount does not exceed a few gallons. But it should not be poured down a floor drain or into a storm sewer.

Both types of antifreeze are biodegradable but take some time to break down. Dumping used antifreeze into a storm sewer, ditch, creek or on the ground can contaminate ground water and kill plants and fish.

Some areas prohibit ANY dumping of used coolant (sanitary or storm sewers). They also may not accept used antifreeze in a sealed container for landfill collection because eventually the container will leak its contents into the ground causing possible ground water contamination.

So how do you get rid of the stuff? You can take it to a local collection center that accepts used antifreeze for disposal or recycling, you can pay to have it disposed of as a hazardous waste (yeah, right) -- or you can take your vehicle to a garage or service facility that has a coolant recycling machine. The latter is the best choice because it eliminates the disposal problem altogether.
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Old 12-16-2004, 09:20 PM   #99
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Actually, the book was dated April 2004. Now, after more searching I did find in the Warranty & Maintenance Booklet a footnote that Subaru coolant conditioner should be added when you change coolant (every 30 months/30k miles) "to prevent leaks". You know, if this is important why on earth is it not in the coolant section of the Owner's handbook where they tell you what coolant to use?

Equally, you cannot take the maintenance booklet very seriously as it requires engine oil and filter changes, defines the intervals, but with a parenthetical note that says "only 3.0L". Presumable, 2.5's go on forever???

Last edited by rogerd; 12-16-2004 at 09:33 PM.
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Old 12-17-2004, 12:48 AM   #100
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It's the new Legacy Wagon baby, with permanently sealed lubrication system!
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