Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Saturday December 20, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Engine Management & Tuning

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-25-2004, 03:15 PM   #1
overdose
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 46399
Join Date: Oct 2003
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Vehicle:
0000 Knows nothing,
about nothing.

Default UTEC users with DYNO TUNED stage II setups

I run the stage 2 new map and i feel it's probably pretty un-optimized, i run closed loop boost and hold roughly ~16.0 psi

those who have the same setup as me (uppipe/downpipe/catless 3" exhaust/ic hoses/silencer delete/drop in filter), what differences in the map did you see vs. the basemap, also how much performance benefit is there? (is tuning the stock fuel/turbo worth it vs. the basemap?)
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
overdose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2004, 04:22 PM   #2
powbmps
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 27543
Join Date: Oct 2002
Vehicle:
2002 WRX
Black

Default

I gained 22 hp and 12 ft/lb with a dyno tune. It smoothed things out quite a bit as well.

Chris
powbmps is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2004, 05:06 PM   #3
overdose
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 46399
Join Date: Oct 2003
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Vehicle:
0000 Knows nothing,
about nothing.

Default

can i see your map?
overdose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2004, 12:00 AM   #4
el~sharko
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 29735
Join Date: Nov 2002
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Westminster,MD
Vehicle:
2011 JSW TDI - DSG
2008 EVO X MR

Default

i gained about 30whp but i also have an uppipe and some other boltons
el~sharko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2004, 01:24 AM   #5
MustGoFast
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 33370
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Vehicle:
2002 Impreza WRX
Blue now w/ 6 fun flavors

Default

I had pretty much the same set up plus an uppipe and the car was a whole different beast after dyno tuning... laid down about 225 or so hp & tq, I was happy with it.

I'd recommend a tune if I were you.
MustGoFast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2004, 11:13 AM   #6
overdose
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 46399
Join Date: Oct 2003
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Vehicle:
0000 Knows nothing,
about nothing.

Default

can i see a map?
overdose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2004, 12:51 PM   #7
infulleffect
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 34054
Join Date: Mar 2003
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: PA
Default

That is pretty much the ultimate question and the biggest unanswered as well. When someone has shelled out a good buck for a tune, turning over their map is like giving away their money...so it seems anyway.

Good luck getting a map...
infulleffect is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2004, 03:06 PM   #8
mick_the_ginge
Citizen Mick
 
Member#: 27646
Join Date: Oct 2002
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Portland, Oregon
Vehicle:
2003 Sleeved 2.5
Oil Dry Sump Goodness

Default

The issue with giving out a dyno tuned map is more than that. A dyno tuned map is less likely to work on another car even with similar mods.

Slightly different air flow, injector flow rate, boost spool up, peak boost would all mean that a dyno tuned map could do more damage than an untuned map.

I am happy to use a concervative rich base map, I would not use someone else dyno tuned map. Maybe I would look at it, I would not run it.

I usually see a gain of 10-20 hp on a dyno tuned map. The main difference is in how smooth the power curve is after the tune. Sometimes we see no gain, but the power curve is still smoother and the car feels more powerful because of that.
mick_the_ginge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2004, 05:06 PM   #9
overdose
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 46399
Join Date: Oct 2003
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Vehicle:
0000 Knows nothing,
about nothing.

Default

well i know it isn't for my setup or anything, but i've never seen one with similar mods off the dyno.... there's a local AWD here now within reach and i'd like to try my hand at tuning my own car, but i dont' even know what to shoot for

what AFR do i wanna see acrossed the board?

ramp timing at what point and how much?

:/
overdose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2004, 08:48 PM   #10
03WRXMA
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 35081
Join Date: Apr 2003
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: CT
Vehicle:
2012 WRX
WRB

Default

Quote:
Originally posted by overdose
well i know it isn't for my setup or anything, but i've never seen one with similar mods off the dyno.... there's a local AWD here now within reach and i'd like to try my hand at tuning my own car, but i dont' even know what to shoot for

what AFR do i wanna see acrossed the board?

ramp timing at what point and how much?

:/
Read and search on Wrxhackers.com

Also D/L Mick's quick tune guide, the guy knows his ****, and explains it in english. And re-read the UTEC manual they explaing timing.

I shoot for 11:1 AFR on pump gas
03WRXMA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2004, 12:23 AM   #11
SloRice
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 44351
Join Date: Sep 2003
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Vehicle:
2004 Mitsubishi Evo
701whp 9.91@146

Default

11:1 is a little lean for my liking. I started out downlow in the rpm's at about 12.5:1 to help the turbo spool up, then it richens up to about 10:1 up top. But every one tunes differently and every car reacts differently to different a/f ratios. Also, how advanced the timing is plays a big part in it.

Honestly, *not trying to be a dick*, if you don't have a good idea of what you are doing, you may end up blowing something up. But if you feel confident in your abilities, create closed loop boost map first. Then create your fuel map until you get an a/f that you like. Then start advancing timing. Thats the order that myself and quite a few other people go in. Seems to work pretty well.

If you have any questions, just PM or IM me.

Tim
SloRice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2004, 12:29 AM   #12
SloRice
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 44351
Join Date: Sep 2003
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Vehicle:
2004 Mitsubishi Evo
701whp 9.91@146

Default

Sorry to post again.

But I didn't notice you were from Grand Rapids during my last post. If you really want to get your car tuned, I suggest Payn technologies in Troy. I got my car dyno'd and tuned there in October. Very happy with the results. Took my car from a 14.0@96mph to a 13.5@100mph in the quarter mile.

Shameless Plug - they also have a Mustang Dyno.....much better dyno than Godspeeds Dynojet Dyno.

www.payntechnologies.com

Tim
SloRice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2004, 12:26 PM   #13
MustGoFast
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 33370
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Vehicle:
2002 Impreza WRX
Blue now w/ 6 fun flavors

Default

Quote:
Shameless Plug - they also have a Mustang Dyno.....much better dyno than Godspeeds Dynojet Dyno
Based on what? Last I checked the dynojets are a more advanced technology capable of reading smaller changes that don't require rolling resistance wheels to operate? I would argue the dynojets are a superior tool... Unless of course you just mean the dynojets read higher therefore a mustang is better.. in which case I'll just roll my eyes as the actual values that come out are pretty meaningless when comparing one type of dyno to another.

this should have read dynapack as that is what dan has.

Last edited by MustGoFast; 03-02-2004 at 04:30 PM.
MustGoFast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2004, 01:35 PM   #14
SloRice
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 44351
Join Date: Sep 2003
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Vehicle:
2004 Mitsubishi Evo
701whp 9.91@146

Default

Quote:
Based on what?
Actually a Mustang Dyno has more advanced technology. A Mustang Dyno has an Eddy Current Power Absorber that creates an actual real road load for the car on the dyno. This allows you to do power pulls, steady state tuning, steady speed tuning, accurate 1/4 dragstrip runs and a whole lot more tests. What can a Dynojet do? A power pull. Just because a Dynojet's computer screen looks a little better doesn't mean it has better technology. Who's Dyno do the OEM car companies use for R&D? Who's Dyno does the government use for emissions testing? They all use a Mustang. Mustang Dyno is the only QS9000 certified Dyno manufacturer in the United States - a must have if you want to play with the automotive manufacturers. Mustang Dyno is the largest dyno manufacturer in the world, producing more dynos than all of the other companies put together.

Yes, I know that Dynojet "says" they have an Eddy Current Power Absorber on their dyno. All it can do is hold the car at a steady speed....nothing else, just ask them. They just started making Eddy Current systems about a year ago. Mustang Dyno has been making them since 1988. Kinda makes you go "hmmm" on why the supposed awesome Dynojet is following another companies product.

As far as accuracy of the two dynos goes, a Mustang is also more accurate. A Dynojet measures horsepower by how fast you accelerate a fixed weight (i.e. the rollers) It's kinda hard to pick up 1-2 HP changes when the inertia of the entire system (drivetrain, tires, rollers, etc.) is still going forward to accelerate the drums. A Mustang Dyno has a extremely sensitive Load Cell connected to the Eddy Current System, so that when you do put torque on the rollers, it puts it onto the Load Cell and that is how HP and TQ is measured. Not by some acceleration equation that Dynojet pulled out of the air and then gave a multiplier so that the #'s read higher.

I'm not trying to start a war between you and I, I just want to make sure that you are informed on some of the differences and not only hearing a one sided story. If you feel that Dynojet makes a better product, then that is your own opinion. But please give me reasons and information why you feel that way. This is only some of the reasons I know a Mustang Dyno is better. I can continue if you would like me to.

Thanks,
Tim
SloRice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2004, 04:30 PM   #15
MustGoFast
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 33370
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Vehicle:
2002 Impreza WRX
Blue now w/ 6 fun flavors

Default

you make a very valid argument.. I will ahve to do more research comparisons before I can have an arguemnt of any worth...

.. then I realized I don't know anything about dynojets.. and that I meant dynapack.. as Dan over at godspeed has a DYNAPACK not dyno jet. I believe that the dynapack is more sensative than the mustang from what I have read in the past.. I can make no claims whatsoever as to the dynojet as I know nothing about them.

Edit: Mind you I can not argue your standards information as it is correct and most likely for good reason... All I'm saying is that from what I know the dynapack is a more sensative unit than the mustang and is able to read smaller changes ... I at no point meant to come of as mocking the mustang dynos.
MustGoFast is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2004, 07:05 PM   #16
el~sharko
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 29735
Join Date: Nov 2002
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Westminster,MD
Vehicle:
2011 JSW TDI - DSG
2008 EVO X MR

Default

overdose, I'll hook you up with a map. I'm curious to see how your car reacts to it. But, dont blame me if something goes wrong Just pm, with your MSNm or AIM screen name.
el~sharko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2004, 02:24 PM   #17
SloRice
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 44351
Join Date: Sep 2003
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Vehicle:
2004 Mitsubishi Evo
701whp 9.91@146

Default

I can not make a great argument against DynaPack because they are not a significant competitor to Mustang or Dynojet. Besides Godspeed, how many other Dynapack facilities are there in the US? In theory, it seems like a good idea to bolt the system to the hub of the vehicle to get rid of "tire slippage, but I would like to point out a few things. Why would you want to get rid of the tires? Just to get rid of "tire slippage"? Your rims and tires are a part of your car on the road. Therefore they should be a part of your car during tuning and HP tests, plain and simple. Else you don't get real world loading and HP numbers. I'm not a big fan of bolting my car to moving "boxes" and then running it up to 200mph.....just doesn't seem like a good idea. From reading on there website, it really didn't see any tech articles on how it works or how it measures HP. But I did see in the specs. sheet that you need a hookup to the shops water line. This makes me believe that it runs a water brake. This again is very old technology that is not very accurate. It's very hard to try and measure HP changes accurately using water pressure. Another issue I have is bolting my AWD car to 4 individual pods. All four hubs are going to speed up at different rates because they aren't attached together by anything. That is a great recipe for destroying a differential.

Thanks,
Tim
SloRice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2004, 10:42 PM   #18
Tuning Factory Inc.
Vendor
 
Member#: 3600
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
Default

Actually we remove the wheel and tire out of the equation to increase acurracy and of course for safety. On the "boxes" the car will stay, never moing one inch. I don't have to tell you how many cars have broken straps and been destroyed with the old fashioned roller style dyno. Actually the water is not usually used. I only have water lines when I am running it all day for cooling. IN fact I don't even have a brake on the dyno. Because there is no momentum, no brake is necessary at all. When I left off the accelerator the car stops within a second or two all by itself. As for the differentials, it is impossible to destroy it as the dyno maintains the same split and can actually measure the power differentials at each corner. Something a Mustang or Dynojet can not do. I can even tell you if you have a bad differential instantly. Certainly can not do that with a roller dyno. In fact I can increase or decrease load to my liking on it. I can also set it up to maintain any RPM and vary load to tune different cells on a map for instance. Makes it incerdibly quick to get a base map to stat with when you have a whole engine management to do. TO be honest with you take a look at all the Japanese Tuner companies and Tuner shops. You'll find they all use Dynapack and for good reason. There IS no better dyno for tuning. If I wanted a roller dyno I probably would have bought a Dyno Dynamics but I'm very glad I chose Dynapack despit it costing much more than a Mustang dyno. It's accuracy has been invaluable.
Tuning Factory Inc. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2004, 06:18 AM   #19
ilivas
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 56056
Join Date: Feb 2004
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Hickory, NC
Vehicle:
2004 wrx
T04R Turbo / 8k rpm 257

Default

a friend of mine told me his in-shop dynapack can measure horsepower differences with my headlights being on or off. I'd assume that a dynapack is quite accurate.
ilivas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2004, 12:01 PM   #20
Tuning Factory Inc.
Vendor
 
Member#: 3600
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Detroit, Michigan, USA
Default

Exactly. Due to not having to turn a huge drum, the torque sensing capabilities is so sensitive that we can see selenoids opening, headights turning on, etc. . .
Also, one other nice feature, we can NOT adjust how it reads so there's no tinkering with the numbers. Payne has changed how their dyno reads recently. THey used to read about 10% lower than us on the same car and now they read a smidgen higher. I would not want to have to worry whether the results have been altered. It is impossible for me to change how my numbers read no matter what.
Tuning Factory Inc. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2004, 10:42 AM   #21
2000vfr800
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 15599
Join Date: Feb 2002
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Livonia, MI
Default

There is so much hype information in this thread, it's funny.
2000vfr800 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2004, 02:21 PM   #22
Payntech
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 32627
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Troy, MI
Vehicle:
2003 WRX Wagon
Black

Default

I am not going to get into a pissing match about different dyno's as it has been discussed many times in different forums.

Here is a link to couple of different article that talk about different dynos - Dyno Information

I will state however that our dyno reads the same now as it did when we first calibrated it a year ago and has not been altered in any way. And cars have been run on both our dyno and Godspeeds Dynapak and every time, the car read significantly higher on Godspeeds Dynapack.

Note: In 7-years of operating a chassis dyno I have never had a car damaged due to a "Broken Strap".

My biggest issue with the Dynapack is that is can not be calibrated to a standard measure of power. The fact that is does not have a load cell and measures based on the fluid power equation which is V=(GPMxPSI)/1714 throws to many unknows into the equation.

If you read the "Fine Dyno'ing" article you will see a comparison of the Mustang dyno vs. a 5-wheel dyno. The 5-wheel method is one of the most accurate real world dyno methods know, as the car is running down the road at speed with all the environmental conditions. All of our dyno pulls are done in vehicle simulation mode, which simulates the load that the car would see in real world driving. This means that the car will have accurate loading/acceleration through out the pull allowing proper real world tuning. No other dyno under $100,000 proper simulates road load and vehicle inertial weights accurately. Other dyno's use a controlled sweep method (Dynapack) or straight inertia (Dynojet), which does not simulate proper track conditions.

Thanks,

Tom
Payn Technologies, Inc.
(248) 649-3966
www.payntechnologies.com
Payntech is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-24-2004, 03:39 PM   #23
Porkchop-WRX
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 33293
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Central Jersey
Vehicle:
2011 4-door STi
Plasma Blue

Default

I picked up like 30 lb/ft of torque and like 10-15 hp but the torque curve was pretty flat from 3000 up. On stock turbo it dynoed 233 hp and 243 tq not bad for the stock turbo IMO.
Porkchop-WRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pro-tune Stage II at Dyno Authority Gray Ghost Proven Power Bragging 9 12-11-2008 01:15 AM
Pro tune Stage II at Dyno Authority Thumpers WRX Proven Power Bragging 5 10-30-2008 02:13 PM
FS: WRX TurboXS UTEC with Dyno Tuned Map Bimmerod Engine/Power/Exhaust 10 10-11-2006 02:12 AM
UTEC users with stage2/3 cars that have been dyno tuned... overdose Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.0L Turbo) 5 05-10-2004 03:37 AM
anyone ever been with the asr stage II turbo setup akcel Normally Aspirated with bolt-on Forced Induction Powertrain 3 11-07-2001 10:50 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:32 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.