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Old 02-25-2004, 03:02 PM   #1
02R6
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Default Another Flow Test Report from RC Engineering for The "Free Injector Mod"

I sent my modified (caps cut completely off, not drilled holes) stock WRX injectors to RC for cleaning/flow testing/balancing.

Here are the results:



My apologies about the size.
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Old 02-25-2004, 03:09 PM   #2
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That looks great. Just stick injector #2 into cylinder #4 and your all set. Man are those ever some big injectors.
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Old 02-25-2004, 03:18 PM   #3
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Injector #2 into cylider four or three? I seem to hear about more failures in cylinder three. Is this not the case? Unfortunately, I don't think RC labeled the injectors so, I don't know which is which.

EDIT: RC did label the injectors, infact, they engraved the corresponding number from the printout onto the injector. What I thought a scratch turned out to be a number "1" after closely examining the others and seeing their numbers.

Also, what do you guys think about this quote from i-Speed's website?
Quote:
1. Cutting off the cover is the incorrect way of creating more flow on the injectors. This will create more flow but it will also cause the injectors to not mix well with the air. Think of it this way, you have a garden hose with a sprayer on the end of it. When you turn the water fully open, there is enough pressure to cause the water to seperate into rain drops. Now when the sprayer is removed the water does not spray anymore, instead it is more like a stream. This is the same things with the cut covers on the injectors. So the car will not run well with these conditions, even though it is getting the correct amount of fuel, the fuel doe snot mix well.
2. As the fuel does not mix well, you will be not burning as much fuel as you will want. From this, your gas milage will drop drastically and lean conditions could start occuring under idle and cruising conditions.
Given the "excellent" spray pattern, will/would "dripping" occur?

Last edited by 02R6; 02-25-2004 at 07:51 PM.
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Old 02-25-2004, 03:28 PM   #4
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Everyone here in Detroit that has had problems broke the ringland on #4. I only know 1 person that had problems with #3 but he spun a bearing there. It wasn't from a lean condition like all the #4 failures.
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Old 02-25-2004, 05:34 PM   #5
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... it sounds like i-speed quickly throwing smoke so their big injector sales don't plummet.

if the pattern is good, the fuel is atomizing. rc tests injectors all day every day, and they have no vested interest in the outcome of the test.

i applaud those folks brave enough to mod their injectors and ante up the fee to test them out. it's the only way to collect data and push the collective knowlede up a few notches.

ken
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Old 02-25-2004, 06:10 PM   #6
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One of the things that scares me is that the first test I remember said that the spray pattern of the modded injectors was good and now this one says excellent. I wonder what the stock injectors would come out on the scale of poor to excelent(hopefully above excellent)? It also makes sense to me that without the holes, the fuel isn't atomized the same and doesn't mix with the fuel as well. I'm no expert, and I don't know the ramifications of this mod, which is another reason I would never do it to my car. It's amazing to me how quick people are to remove parts from their cars cause someone says it's ok......

peace
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Old 02-25-2004, 06:38 PM   #7
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Quote: 02R6:Given the "excellent" spray pattern, will/would "dripping" occur?

RC has not had any of the "cap cut off injectors" leak so far. Ask RC what they think. If RC tells me that the spray pattern is excellent, no leaks during flow testing under 43psi, I am going to trust them over some vendor who sells aftermarket injectors and reliezes that this mod could hurt injector sells.
Think about their example. I-speed's example says that our modded injectors are like a Garden hose. Yet you Dont have a rod that is inside the garden hose, that moves up and down to regulate flow. Stick your pinky or whatever you feel like in the end of agarden hose and you will get some kind of spray. Look at RCEng.com , they have some pics of a injector spray pattern much similar to our moddified WRX injectors.
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Old 02-25-2004, 06:40 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by ride5000
... it sounds like i-speed quickly throwing smoke so their big injector sales don't plummet.

if the pattern is good, the fuel is atomizing. rc tests injectors all day every day, and they have no vested interest in the outcome of the test.

i applaud those folks brave enough to mod their injectors and ante up the fee to test them out. it's the only way to collect data and push the collective knowlede up a few notches.

ken

Ahh now ride5000, why in the world would you think that??
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Old 02-25-2004, 06:44 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by hippy
It's amazing to me how quick people are to remove parts from their cars cause someone says it's ok......

peace
If more people thought like this, we would be stuck in a world with no new technological advances.. That is why we have R&D, trial and error. People are not blowing their cars up, we are trying something new. Darthchicken has a very modded car and he has been running these injectors for a year or so with no problems.
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Old 02-25-2004, 06:59 PM   #10
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Don't mind hippy.. he likes to troll and make peoples lives difficult. If you pay and have them cleaned you'll find that you get a better spray pattern and more consistant flow.

Last edited by crazyhorse; 02-25-2004 at 07:59 PM.
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Old 02-25-2004, 07:53 PM   #11
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How much is cleaning/flow testing cost again?
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Old 02-25-2004, 07:56 PM   #12
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25/injector or something along those lines
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Old 02-25-2004, 07:57 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aaron'sWRX
RC has not had any of the "cap cut off injectors" leak so far. Ask RC what they think. If RC tells me that the spray pattern is excellent, no leaks during flow testing under 43psi, I am going to trust them over some vendor who sells aftermarket injectors and reliezes that this mod could hurt injector sells.
Think about their example. I-speed's example says that our modded injectors are like a Garden hose. Yet you Dont have a rod that is inside the garden hose, that moves up and down to regulate flow. Stick your pinky or whatever you feel like in the end of agarden hose and you will get some kind of spray. Look at RCEng.com , they have some pics of a injector spray pattern much similar to our moddified WRX injectors.
By "leak" do you mean, "drip?"

Please don't get me wrong, I most definitely trust RC, I mean, this is how they make a living. I was just wondering if there was any truth to I-Speed's claim.
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Old 02-25-2004, 08:33 PM   #14
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What do I mean by leak? There was no dripping, no trickle, no leaks, no dribbles.. I dont know how else to say it. the injectors that had the caps cut off properly, there was no fuel leaking or dripping while under pressure during flow testing.
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Old 02-25-2004, 10:16 PM   #15
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Yeh, I'm just trolling. It's not like it was my opinion or anything. Like I said, it's just weird that cause people like ride say that it's ok to take the cap off your injectors, the harmonic dampners out of your pulleys, and whatever else he can tell you to do, you'll do it. I know I have a closed mind thinking that the injectors have holes in the end for a reason, but whatever. zYou guys act like the things you've tried haven't been tried by subaru a thousand times over. Like you're special for telling people that they can remove parts from their car, and them special for doing it. I must be the only person who thinks that it's better to have a nozzle on the end of a hose then a "pinky", but whatever my opinion doesn't matter cause I'm just trollin......

Quote:
Don't mind hippy.. he likes to troll and make peoples lives difficult. If you pay and have them cleaned you'll find that you get a better spray pattern and more consistant flow.
How do you get a better spay patter then "excellent"?
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Old 02-25-2004, 10:19 PM   #16
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Exactly! You're starting to catch on.

Subaru wouldn't try to get 850cc because the WRX doesn't need that much for a TD04 Be brave man! Try something new... you should see my oil lines and the ghetto intake setup I have now.
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Old 02-26-2004, 03:20 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by hippy
I must be the only person who thinks that it's better to have a nozzle on the end of a hose then a "pinky", but whatever my opinion doesn't matter cause I'm just trollin......

Have you ever looked at how a garden hose nozzle works? There's a flat-tipped piston that moves in and out of the hole. The amount that the piston in the injectors moves is not enough to allow an "open garden hose" effect. It makes a perfect fine-misting cone, just like RC and Kingpin say.

What part of "Excellent" is unclear?
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Old 02-26-2004, 03:54 AM   #18
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At low rpms or low throttle when there isn't as much air or fuel going into the engine, would the air and fuel with the injector mod might mix like crap? At higher boost, when there's actually air pressure against the injectors and they don't flow like a garden hose in the open atmosphere, would the injector mod make the injectors dribble, or will the spray pattern be as good in the car as in a flow tester? My logic would say that things don't work the same in wrx's as they do in flow testers. It's nice to know they flow the same amount, but.........blah

Subaru uses a certain amount of pressure for wrx injectors, people say more for sti injectors. Why does subaru use more fuel pressure with the sti? How much extra fuel pressure would you use with these injectors? Is it dependent on boost? Is it dependent on spray pattern? I guess I'm just untrusting when people say things like "free", "remove", or "excellent". Like I said though, I'm no expert, and I'm not trying to argue. these are just some of the things I'd think b4 doing the injector mod.

peace
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Old 02-26-2004, 05:32 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aaron'sWRX
What do I mean by leak? There was no dripping, no trickle, no leaks, no dribbles.. I dont know how else to say it. the injectors that had the caps cut off properly, there was no fuel leaking or dripping while under pressure during flow testing.
Hi Everyone,

Hmmm I guess I wasn't clear about what I was stating. Sorry for the error in my English. What i meant to say is a drip and I will explain in a minute.

1. The stock ECU opens and closes the injectors correct? There are programmes times when it does this.
2. The injectors stock pattern works well for a daily driver, it in turns atomizes the fuel to mix well with the air.
3. If you remove the covers it will still atomize but think how easily it will atomize now? Not as well, correct?
4. Take into consideration at cruising and idle conditions the injectors are open for a short amount of time. When they open the fuel will spray out either through a pattern which will atomize it more than it already is it spray out from the sides. (Press the center of the injector down.) The water comes from the sides, so it will atomize, but not as well as through those tiny holes.
5. So under idle and cruising conditions, where conditions have to be more finely tuned for Emissions, by the ECU, the ECU runs leaner conditions to run a cleaner burn.
6. When you remove those covers the car does not atomize as well and the ECU is dumping in fuel to get the mixture closer to the corrcet A/F (set by the ECU) but the O2 sensor is sensing a LOT of unburned fuel cells. Those unburned cells are read by the computer which in turn pulls fuel. So the car runs to lean, even though the O2 senses it is rich.
7. We have already tried these cut covers in one of our cars and have tried various injectors sizes ranging from 900cc to 600cc, everythign ran too lean. Though as the injectors size got smaller, it seemed to get better.
8. Then we noticed the next problem, as higher RPM's and boost, the atomization started to occur better, and the ECU was expecting more fuel and the O2 reads only as low as 11.24. Though the atomization occured better, with a smaller injector size it ran to rich and bogged. Though with a bigger injector size the ECU and engine expected more fuel. With that it ran better at high RPM's only, but lean down lower.

Now if you were to drill just a little bit bigger holes I bet you could find a good size to create some good CC numbers. So go out and test and see what seems to be a good size. i would suggest trying .1mm increments and see what flowing sizes you can come up with.

-----
As for the injector sales, yeah I admit it I am out to increase injector sales with this, as we sell so many of them every day. I think we have sold a total of 3 sets over last year not even on Nasioc.

-----
Lastly people will say whatever they want too. What I give to this board is some of my knowledge of what I have learned over the year. I do not give it all as I need to make a living but I give what I can. I have devoted a lot of my time to this industry because I love it and the poeple.

I can either keep posting information in the hopes that some poeple will get some useful information out of, or you can send me away from the boards, which I only see at a lose-lose situation.

Just trying to make things clear here with myself and my company. I am here for help everyone, so treat that help with respect and I will give back that respect every time. This is how I treat my friends, my customers and even my competition.

Cheers,
Bill Knose
I-Speed USA
www.i-speed.us
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Old 02-26-2004, 06:23 AM   #20
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hippy:

if you were so damned concerned about your car lasting forever, why did you start modding it? how about that utec? you going to tell me it makes your engine last LONGER?

use the thing between your ears. question authority. do your own homework. make you own conclusions.

bill/ispeed:

if i'm reading your post correctly, you seem to be having troubles with ALL larger capacity (ir over 650) injectors, right?
Quote:
7. We have already tried these cut covers in one of our cars and have tried various injectors sizes ranging from 900cc to 600cc, everythign ran too lean. Though as the injectors size got smaller, it seemed to get better.
idle problems are not a new thing that suddenly appeared with the emergence of this mod... an injector designed to flow mega fuel will indeed probably have a bit of difficulty at very low flow levels. so you're putting in huge injectors so you can sit around idling the car?

i guess we'll just have to take a word on your sales #s. you cannot deny that even as small as you claim it to be, it is still a vested interest.

nothing personal here.

jm2c
ken
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Old 02-26-2004, 06:58 AM   #21
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Quote:
hippy:

if you were so damned concerned about your car lasting forever, why did you start modding it? how about that utec? you going to tell me it makes your engine last LONGER?
Am I missing something? I mod my car to make it go faster and handle better. I don't mod it so it will break. I can honestly say that with the mods I have, if I didn't have the utec my engine would have had major damage a long time ago. Maybe some 800cc injectors with tiny holes in the cap make the engine last longer then ones whithout? Maybe people who can't afford to pay for injectors should think twice before testing things out that can break their engine, cause they probably couldn't afford to fix it if it broke.
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Old 02-26-2004, 08:13 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by hippy
Am I missing something? I mod my car to make it go faster and handle better. I don't mod it so it will break.
sorry buddy, you struck out. your car WILL die sooner because you've modded it. trust me. or not, actually... i don't really care. i've given up trying to enlighten you.

you're an excellent parrot of already established information--i'll give you that. too bad the search function does the same thing.

ken

ps. as long as you're going to bring it up--i'm still waiting for you to come up with that single person whose engine (particularly crankshaft) has failed from installing an aftermarket crank pulley. the days tick by; your argument grows weaker.
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Old 02-26-2004, 08:39 AM   #23
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Could you guys take the spat to PMs, please?

02R6, thanks for sharing your findings.

Bill, thanks for the objective info. It makes perfect sense.
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Old 02-26-2004, 09:26 AM   #24
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Sure, no problem.

Not to open another can of worms but, would a different, maybe, adjustable FPR take care of some of the proposed fueling issues at idle and lower/cruising speeds?
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Old 02-26-2004, 10:49 AM   #25
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So, we are saying that the hacked stock injectors are not safe now? I see no difference from modded stock injectors to 600+ cc say RC injectors or UR injectors. They are pintle(sp) type conical spray pattern also. I think the key is tuning with any injector set. Maybe we ought to go a bit higher or lower on fuel pressure for better idle. The tuning can correct the in boost fuel maps with the UTEC easier than it would be able to correct the idle and cruise maps.

Maybe with the guys with adjustable fpr's before they get tuned(me included) can go ahead and set maybe a 43 psi fuel pressure and then go up or down a few psi and see if the idle smooths out and the fuel trims are more in line. I might not be the greatest example of that being that I have TGVless housings.

Bill,
Do you mean that you could have a lean burn with the A/F sensor reading rich because the surface area of the gasoline particles is not large enough to use up all available gas in the combustion chamber? So, in turn you get a lean burn and rich AFR's. I figured that the engine speeds would be low enough for a good complete burn to be happening. I might be totally wrong though. But, if that is they key then maybe a few psi increase in fuel pressure might be in order for us guys with the hacked stockers. Ah well, I guess time and tuning will tell.

Good luck everyone ,

Richard
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