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Old 03-14-2004, 03:03 PM   #1
Scrappy2006
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Default Pdm & Jc Sports

what do you guys know about PDM & JC SPORTS ????
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Old 03-14-2004, 03:42 PM   #2
COwannago
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I know enough to not touch that subject with a ten foot pole.

Nick C.
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Old 03-14-2004, 06:43 PM   #3
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Joel owes me, too. You're not alone.

Last edited by HamFist; 03-14-2004 at 07:06 PM.
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Old 03-14-2004, 11:07 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by COwannago
I know enough to not touch that subject with a ten foot pole.

Nick C.
why are they so bad what did they do to you????
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Old 03-14-2004, 11:36 PM   #5
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I think I am one of the few that have never had a problem with either of them. I have a lot of mods/products from both (actually every performance part I have ever bought for my car has been through them). They always seem nice and willing to help with any problems. I never had any problems with them taking my money because I would just go to the shop and pay cash. So... I guess its who you talk... some people like them, but most (actually alot) dont.

Kurt
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Old 03-15-2004, 01:19 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by mofoporn
I never had any problems with them taking my money because I would just go to the shop and pay cash.
Exactly. If something wasn't "in stock" you didn't have to hand over money. Unfortunately a good number of people have forked over money and not recieved a product in return.
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Old 03-15-2004, 08:38 AM   #7
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I think the most frustrating part is no communication. Debts are being paid off, and it doesn't happen very quickly after a near bankruptcy experience (as opposed to near death.). Phones are turned off just to get work done. I used to work there, am still owed parts, and I can't get through either. It's frustrating just wanting to get on with life and get what we're all owed, but turnips don't bleed...
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Old 03-15-2004, 04:15 PM   #8
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so where do you guys take ur cars then??
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Old 04-05-2004, 01:32 AM   #9
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I gave Joel at PDM $1600 almost 1 year ago for two sets of Pauter rods, and so far he wont return calls or emails, or give me my money.

I'm ready to go to court now.
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Old 04-05-2004, 06:15 PM   #10
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Sorry to hear about your experience Larry. So the wife made you get rid of that Beast of an RS you had, huh? I met you about two years ago and the car was just really getting impressive then. From what I saw it became quite the monster. How are you liking the STI? I just went from an RS myself to a WRX wagon and I have to say that I love having space and power.

Matt
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Old 04-06-2004, 01:07 AM   #11
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i wonder how much he as ripped people off for total?
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Old 04-06-2004, 05:31 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by CrotchRS34
I have gave Joel $3300 dollars and I have not recieved a thing. I gave him the money up front, that was a year ago. I cannot get through to him as most of you know. Im pissed!!!!!

LAWSUIT!!!!!!!
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Old 04-08-2004, 11:57 AM   #13
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larry we all know the truth about what you did you shoud not even be talking. people i am not pdm or jc sports but i do respect those people and so do many, many, many other people. i do not know your problems BUT I AM SICK OF F#$*%NG HEARING IT. STOP WRITING CRAP IN FRONT OF A COMPUTER SCREEN AND GET SOME FRESH AIR. these people DO NOT HURT people so stop thinking your specially being attacked you are not
and remember anyone can write on this page trust yourself not opinions of people you do not know if they are not truthful or simple do not have mechanical skill
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Old 04-08-2004, 06:37 PM   #14
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blurex - take a valium

That was my first negative post, and it took almost a year for me to say anything. And NO, I don't think I am "specially being attacked" as you say, Joel has screwed many people out of stuff. I am not unique. I am now convinced he is a thief.

I have paid Joel everything he was due for re-building my motor, turbo kit and tranny. I spent over $12,000 between Dec 7 2002 and July 4 2003, and over $8000 of that was to Joel, the rest being to Cobb and GTBGUY at iON Performance for cams, springs and big turbo.

I spent another $1,000 to have Heuberger motors rewire the auto tranny conversion that Joel screwed up, after $1,000 in cash and trade-in parts went his way that he made another $500 selling, when the initial quote was for $1,200 and trades for the rest of the parts. I also put in almost as many hours helping Joel work on my car as he did, despite having paid him to do it without me.

As some background - when my car broke down Dec 2002, it was my main transportation and he promised to have the car back in 4 weeks - initially all we'd planned was new pistons and rings, some crank work, new 3rd gear, and injector upgrade to 8 of them instead of 6. The estimate was for about $4,000 and I paid him up front for any parts, and later had to advance him the $1200 labor money so he could pay bills.

The longer it sat around, the more money I saved, and the more elaborate the job became. Anytime something was added, we would extend the due date for completion by 2-3 weeks. This was for like adding pauter rods, or adding cams and springs when he couldn't do the stock spring shim job, or a bigger turbo and IC. After he had the car for 4 months, I was planning to pick it up mid april after returning by plane from a vacation . The car wasn't ready and we had no ride from Denver to Colorado Springs, even though when we left on vacation he was still promising to be done when we got back. When we got back, the motor and tranny were totally apart in boxes, and many of the new parts were not in or had been used on other jobs.

All that had been done in those 4 months was the intake manifold, which had quadrupled in price and beauty, and I paid for all the upgrades at that time. He had tabled work my car to take on new projects once he had my money, so I got involved for the first time to push things along.

I then went in every weekend for 6 weeks, stressing my marriage to the max, to get the project done with Joel. I also tried to teach Joel project management and time management on his project board, so he could juggle the 4-5 jobs he had going, expecially Billy's car, Don's car and Brad's car. I gave him a palm pilot for free, and when the battery died, we traded my own personal palm pilot for an SDSEFI so he could get organized. Yet, during the week he did no work on their cars or mine, but continued to take on new jobs instead.

Finally, at the end of May, everything but the SDSEFI was done, and I took the car - It was fantastic. Even at 5-6 psi it felt like 280-300hp and mid 13's, even according to Joel. Clutch went in 3 days, got a new one, and the ring and pinon blew 3 days later. We spent the next 5 weeks installing the SDSEFI and doing a Forester STi auto tranny conversion, which after 4 weeks would only run in 3rd gear. My wife YOU ARE DONE, and made me trade it for an STi. the last week trying to finish the car was hell, and I spent 4 of 7 days in Denver working with Joel to no avail, hence paying Heuberger $1,000 to rewire it (15 hours) so I wouldn't lose out on the STi/trade opportunity.

When I sold the two sets of pauter rods to customers in April and May 2003, I gave Joel the entire $800 retail, despite $650 whole sale shipped price, and he agreed to do an extra 6 hours of labor free. I never got the rods or the refund. I refunded one custoer $800 from my pocket, and bought a set of rods elsewhere for the other customer.

I have ignored Joel's libel and slander for the past 9 months, being beneath me to stoop that low. But, i will rise to defend myself when people decide to believe joel's lies and spout those lies themselves!

Joel is an expert in the art of deceipt, having to make up for his inability to organize and run a business, where he had to make excuses to his customers. Many times he'd fib to me, and I knew it was a fib, but I didn't feel it was worth flaunting that knowledge to him, as I needed him to stay friends and finish the job.
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Old 04-08-2004, 06:54 PM   #15
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Larry i am with you!

Last edited by cnstman; 04-13-2004 at 12:49 PM.
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Old 04-08-2004, 07:18 PM   #16
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PS: That was $800 each per set, hence the $1600 paid for two sets of rods.
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Old 04-09-2004, 02:27 AM   #17
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hey guys i dident mean to start any thing here i just wanted to know what you guys thought of them not for every 1 to get in a big ass fight about it.. i also think BLUREX is right and every 1 should just leave this Thread alone its starting nuttn but probs ..i do hope every 1 gets ther money back and gets what they want and then every 1 can go on ther ways.
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Old 04-09-2004, 09:39 AM   #18
cnstman
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maybe they just wanted to warn people to be careful with their hard earned money? i don't see much harm in that.

if i knew you were might get ripped off by someone, anyone, would you want me to tell you? Or would you want me to wait untill after it happened, then tell you?

cnstman
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Old 04-09-2004, 12:28 PM   #19
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cnstman do you even know both sides have you sat down and listened to both do you even know all the people involved, i have , i have listened to larry many of times and joel's side . to help back up some one you know is good to see, but to talk flat out s&^t is bad ,would you like to talk in person? becuase i do not remember you being so foward? Larry you leave out everything that you did wrong and the situations real outcome and no one wants to here it anymore. on a computer you can talk meanly but in person it is so different? why not talk calmly to the source of your problem i knew you had this going on and have seen you with this person and not say anything but behind the computer monitor you love to talk. you and your wife is and sounds like your problem it is not fair for you to think the problem at home can be blamed on someone else for whatever the reason. we all make our own choices in life you chose something that made your wife mad i didnot chose that
this site is a ball of negativity and every time i look here i get dragged into some b*#^h fight over minor stuff what happened to the supossed 'family of suby people. i, we and everyone i know only see this problem come from one person(now it seems as if it might be 2) i along with many people feel pride in what we do to our cars i personally have struggled sometimes(never with joel) but i move on with pride. over the last couple years your hate to people and the cars has grow. negativity is all i here from you when a long time ago it was not, we, i want your positivity back not the other. suby people stick together , can we continue?
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Old 04-09-2004, 03:56 PM   #20
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sorry for any negativity, but i know for sure that they will never get any of my hard earned money. there are toooo many good venders / mechanics out there to risk it.
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Old 04-09-2004, 11:10 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by blurex
cnstman do you even know both sides have you sat down and listened to both do you even know all the people involved, i have , i have listened to larry many of times and joel's side .


Hey, the only person who will tell me Joel's side is one of his friends - calmly speaking to Joel doesn't work because he wont return calls or email. What I heard from his friend was pure BS, made up and full of lies, or delusions.

Quote:
to help back up some one you know is good to see, but to talk flat out s&^t is bad ,would you like to talk in person? becuase i do not remember you being so foward?
All I first posted was that joel robbed me of $1600, along with several other people. The "trash" started when you made it clear you believed Joel's BS without question, and attacked me for posting my first post.

Quote:
Larry you leave out everything that you did wrong and the situations real outcome and no one wants to here it anymore.
Ummm. What I did wrong, or what joel the liar say I did wrong? Trust me, you don't have the facts, you have a deposition of Joel's delusions, straight from the devil's mouth.

Quote:
on a computer you can talk meanly but in person it is so different? why not talk calmly to the source of your problem i knew you had this going on and have seen you with this person and not say anything but behind the computer monitor you love to talk.
No, I'd be happy to say this to anyone in person too. I said I kept quiet because it was beneath me to rise to the occasion and bash him. Things have gone too far now. When you saw Joel and I together, I was still trying to keep things civil so I could get my customer's parts. Kissing A$$ I suppose, which I am sorry for doing now. By telling everyone the truth, I just cost myself any chance of getting Joel to give me my money back. Why would I do that if what i had to say wasn't true?

I do not wish to meet with Joel again, because he is just full of ***** - like making up some story about me breaking a contractI made with him to race the car for a certain amount of time. No contract, never. It was my generosity for offering to spread the word about good work done and show off the car at drags and shows with his decals on the car. I even offered to let him run the car at the import drags at the end of June, the day AFTER I had a signed contract at Heuberger motors to trade it in for the STi - he couldn't finish the car in time. It was his generosity for agreeing to sell me parts at cost and do labor for $30-40/hr - he didn't keep up his part, so there was nothing for me to do in return.

Quote:
you and your wife is and sounds like your problem it is not fair for you to think the problem at home can be blamed on someone else for whatever the reason. we all make our own choices in life you chose something that made your wife mad i didnot chose that
Correct, I made the mistake of pissing off my wife by going in to DENVER to work on my car every free weekend I had, because joel wouldn't finish the work that I paid him in advance to do. It was also my mistake for ignoring what other people had to say in warning me about him, and giving him the job in the first place.

Quote:
this site is a ball of negativity and every time i look here i get dragged into some b*#^h fight over minor stuff what happened to the supossed 'family of suby people. i, we and everyone i know only see this problem come from one person(now it seems as if it might be 2)
It has been my professionallism to this point and LACK of input anywhere about this problem that has allowed the myths and lies that Joel has spread to become "the true problem" - show me where I have had any negativity or B*itch fighting about this problem, which in fact is NOT minor. Show me, because I don't see it.

The only online fight I've had here, since Shiv and I would occasionally go at it about proper tuning, was recently with HamFist's tuning procedure and inability to take constructive critisism about him not using timing control - which he now conceeds is needed. The fights with Shiv were because I was previously doing exactly what hamFist was doing. But, I gave Shiv the credit for convincing me that timing control was vital afterall. I learned from Shiv's experience and admitted it.

Quote:
i along with many people feel pride in what we do to our cars i personally have struggled sometimes(never with joel) but i move on with pride. over the last couple years your hate to people and the cars has grow. negativity is all i here from you when a long time ago it was not, we, i want your positivity back not the other. suby people stick together , can we continue?
I don't know what negativity and hate you are talking about. I don't know what you can quote to substantiate that. Help enlighten us.

Did you even read my post about what happened? Which parts do you say are not true, and when you pick them out, you better have evidence to back up your statements, or don't make them. Statements from Joel don't hold any weight with me any more.

More issues I never mentioned

(1) I had two customers also ordered JE pistons, and I prepaid joel for them in April and May when the rods were ordered (paid Joel full retail again). In july the pistons were "reportedly in" but needed to be coated and would be ready in "2 weeks". The April customer canceled after 8 weeks and I had to refund his money for the pistons as well as the rods, out of my pocket. This is after 16 weeks when we were quoted 4 weeks. I finally got the pistons in October, and had to find a new customer to take the spare pistons, while the other customer who waited 6 months finally got his. 4 weeks turned into 6 months, one lost customer, and another $650 lost until Joel was able to deliver pistons so I could sell to another buyer.

(2) When I agreed to buy TARMAC's rods to send my remaining customer in December, because Joel lied over and over about having ordered rods, TARMAC gave them to Joel to ship. It took over 7-8 weeks before TARMAC had to run over to Joel's to get the rods and have me drive up to Denver to get them. Joel almost couldn't find them, and the fuel pump joel was going to give me that was "in" when he last emailed me on 11/18/03 was now missing.

(3) After I blew the ring and pinon, I sold my PAR gear set to another customer, along with my STi center diff, to cover the costs of the auto tranny conversion. That customer shipped in his 5th gear in July 2003, to be pressed onto the main and pinon shaft that were completely done otherwise. I gave Joel the parts and used a $250 credit I had with Joel to cover the $100 that he wanted to do the job. I told him to keep it all, just do it fast. It is now April 2004 and Joel stilll has not shipped the customer the $3000 worth of gears and diff. The customer has offered to have Joel NOT DO THE WORK and just ship the unassembled parts at his cost, and he even emailed Joel his fed-ex account number. Still Joel refuses to ship them, refuses to return his calls or emails, and even though I know exactly where the parts were in Joel's garage after the move, he wouldn't give them to TARMAC when he picked up his rods (this is the third set I bought because Joel didn't order the first two sets I paid for). I have started to suspect Joel may have sold the parts to someone else for the needed money. If we can prove this, I willl post it when we have proof, and then call the DA.

(4) I sold my turbo kit in October and offered to Joel to trade one credit for a set of rods for the labor for the labor on the gears, for turbo coolant lines, for a fuel pump and RRFPR and for a wastegate actuator rod - all worth under $500. A worthy trade for the $800 he owed me. he agreed and none of the work or parts have been delivered 6 months later. In november he told me he had the fuel pump ready but wouldn't ship it, and in jan/feb claimed to TARMAC he "lost it".

(5) When he was doing the auto tranny conversion - he agreed on $1,200 or $900 plus my new ceramic cluth (which I then found a buyer for him). He was going to trade my driveshaft, shift lever, pedals, symms short shift kit, cusco bushings for the rest of the automatic parts. The problem: Then he discovered half the parts he promised to trade to me were missing/lost and I had to pay an extra $250 for a TCU from someone else, with no reimbursement from Joel despite it being part of the original deal. For the week prior to the pikes peak hill climb, I had to go up to Denver 4 days out of 7 to help work on the car, we had to strip out the entire wiring harness from a wrecked WRX, and I had to make GTBGUY work too while he was visiting our home for the hill climb.

5) continued... Since I was working at the Heuberger Motor's NASIOC meet, we wanted the car ready by then, to show off to everyone and then run at the import drags that weekend. I left Joel and GTBGUY in Denver to finish it and bring the car. It wasn't ready, and my wife blew up and said get rid of it or she'd kick me out. I ended up signing the papers for an STi that weekend if I could have my trade in there within one week. I told Joel that saturday, but agreed to let him run my car at the import drags if it was done, but when I called him on sunday while I was at the import drags he told me he refused to finish the car.

I blew up and threatened to expose the truth if he didn't finish it. By july 3 2004 the car was done, but stuck in 3rd gear. Joel convinced me it was a bad solenoid in the tranny. Because I only had 1 day to get it fixed, I worked a deal with Heuberger to fix it for a reduction in $1000 off the trade in price. They spent 15 hours to rewire the job, since the tranny was fine. It was MY fault that i didn't have time to have Joel warrantee the work, I'll admit that. But, there was still some shaddy stuff that went down, especially since up to the Friday before the drags, i was present and helping anytime Joel worked on my car even though I paid him in adavance to do it all himself. I lost 3-4 hours of every day I would drive to Denver to work on the car, plus jack and I spent 3 hours to pull the harness and the 3 hours to install the automatic pedals and shifter because Joel had too much other work to do on the car, etc... I also stayed for hours to help him tease out ALL the wires involved in the conversion and label them.

The point is, I did a large amount of the work, while having paid him to do it without me. Nothing would ever have been done if I didn't. That shouldn't make me a bad person.

(6) I've got more stories, but am too tired to continue... I do want to say that my respect for Joseph Cox has grown during this time. Working for Mike Shaw has done wonders for him, he is in a structured environment, and is a doing a much better job than when he ran JC Sports. I don't put Joseph into the category of an intentional crook, he isn't. Joel I am starting to wonder about about. In my previous delaings with joel, I worked under the assumption that he just had problems with memory and organizational skills, and was just a victim. But the way he now avoids his commitments and fulfilling his obligations makes me wonder.
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Old 04-10-2004, 12:34 AM   #22
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I'm no lawyer, however I have taken alot of pre-law before I realized it was evil and went into a different area of study, had I finished my studies I would have been a 3'rd generation lawyer, so I have a pretty decent idea of what I'm talking about.

Based on what I have seen on the boards Larry has a VERY good case to bring to small claims court against Joel. In colorado any amount of money under $7500 is fair game and no lawyers get involved. It is restrictive in that only monetary/property claims, motions to perform or nullify a contract for less than $7500, or comply with restrictive covenants (like a homeowners association). The first 2 it sounds like Larry really has a slam dunk if he were to take joel to court. For an amount over $500 it only costs $39 in court costs, there are a few additional fees depending on how things go, but it's REALLY rare for things to get over $100. Small claims court also prohibits juries, so Joels ability to be a slick SOB isn't going to help him out much. Most small claims judges look HEAVILY at any paperwork persons appearing before the court can present. I don't know how well you documented these things Larry, but if you have reciepts and work orders it should once again be a slam dunk. You can also go after Joel for up to 8% annual interest on any amount owed which should be pretty easy since it sounds like you are making car payments with some interest. It is actually alot easier to sue someone in small claims court than alot of people believe, and unless things get really complicated, time before a judge is only a few hours, however it is ALOT of paperwork. I don't know what you are doing these days Larry, but it sounds like you spend alot of time babysitting servers, perhaps something to do while babysitting? It also sounds like you had alot of 3'rd parties involved with your dealings with Joel, and being that you are a pretty popular guy around here I'm sure you would have no problem gettings tons of signed affadavits from people who have first hand knowlege of things that went down. Another thing you might consider is billing him for all your time, see what standard mechanics labor rates are in the area, last I checked it was around $65/hr, tack on an additional $10/hr to this for "specialty" labor, and come up with as much time as you can, heck you could probaly convince a judge to give you a good chunk of the time you spent driving back and forth to denver to solve the big CF joel caused for others, not to mention expenses for getting back and forth from your vacation and what not.

Colorado makes it pretty freaking easy to file papers on someone, every resource you should need can be found here:

http://www.courts.state.co.us/chs/co...allclaims.html

I know alot of people out there are very anti-suing, but I think it helps keep people honest if somone gets completely a$$ rammed by the courts from time to time for doing extremely shady dishonest stuff.

You mentioned libel and slander, and that's another thing you probably have a very good case for being that you derive income from your dealings in the subaru community especially NASIOC, any badmouthing of you can be pretty easily shown as money out of your pocket, however libel is a totally different deal and getting a lawyer would probably be needed, hell, lots of damn good lawyers out there would be willing to take the case with no up front cost with a percentage (pretty hefty) if you won. You might not see much money this way, but it sounds like you are pretty pissed off at joel and this might just be another good way to stick it to him.

I dunno, assuming you have the time, I recomend serving papers, getting a big check out of him through a court judgement might take some of the hurt off, take your wife out to dinner at the broker on Joels dime as a belated appology to her

If you have any questions, let me know, I made things sound a bit simpler than they are, but not by much
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Old 04-10-2004, 03:42 AM   #23
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Thanks, I'll keep that in mind - so far, it has too much of a PITA to pursue, but I am looking to take some action. I am planning to look into how hard it would be.

Part of the problem is I am a house daddy while I baby sit those servers, and can't travel to Denver to file in small claims court with kids in school who need rides home, etc...

Part of the problem was Joel wasn't much for paperwork, ask anyone, and so I paid for parts with checks to prove payment, but most labor was with cash, with occasional trades. I DID give him checks for both orders of pistons/rods, which he cashed, and the memo states what they were for, so I should be covered.

I have a typed memo of all payments made and services received, that accounts for at least 90% of the money paid to Joel and 100% of the money spent elsewhere on the build up of the car, as well as a written estimate on the original job and canceled checks on the parts for the original estimate.
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Old 04-10-2004, 11:48 AM   #24
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larry, I sent you a PM about your questions, I don't want to post it for the world to see because some of it could help Joel and friends out if any of them still read this and you decide to go through with this sometime down the line.
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Old 04-12-2004, 03:33 PM   #25
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truth can not be change. it is funny to watch the energy you all put in this ha ha ha . please proceed in making remarks on every other word written. Just to funny. also thank you for caring so much about me and taking out all the time in your day to write
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