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Old 01-17-2006, 01:07 AM   #51
Butt Dyno
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Yeah, but it's not the H6 upgrade at that point

$250 < $500... I am not gonna need the vents for autox and the occasional super-rare track day.
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Old 01-17-2006, 02:21 AM   #52
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Yeah, I'd agree. The new Leg upgrade is better but $250 better??? Then we have the new 06 4 pot upgrade....

I've been asked to do a full Brake FAQ, so maybe one day I'll tackle it, but DAMN there are a lot of options to discuss.
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Old 01-17-2006, 10:35 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unabomber
Yeah, I'd agree. The new Leg upgrade is better but $250 better??? Then we have the new 06 4 pot upgrade....

I've been asked to do a full Brake FAQ, so maybe one day I'll tackle it, but DAMN there are a lot of options to discuss.

Huge number of options, indeed. The new GT brakes are vented, so that's a big benefit in and of itself. Same rotors I think as those that are on the '06 WRX in the rear, the ~11.3" (290mm I think) vented ones. Just with single-piston calipers, versus the aluminum two-potters on the WRX (formerly GC STi).

I did my H-6 upgrade last year. Photo op!

OE rotors. Ugly. And old.






Old vs. New




Hammer vs. Dust shield. Hammer wins.




Done, dude.



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Old 01-17-2006, 10:36 AM   #54
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And with the wheels on...









Once I have time or ambition, I'll take some new photos of my car.

Review?

Love the rotors. It feels weird.... Not like the car's stopping faster, just.... flatter I guess. You don't notice nearly as much dive, which I suppose is good.

=Chris
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Old 02-11-2006, 02:43 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX
good thing you aren't going to use the H6 rears with the 4 pots up front...that would give you a rear braking bias big time!!!
I see in this thread, this combination (H6 + 4-pot) is discussed in detail with the consensus being that the brake bias will be negatively impacted(?). I’ve also seen this same point discussed elsewhere.

Contradicting to this, I see in other threads that reputable guru’s are saying the exact opposite, and I’m very confused… I would like to run a similar setup consisting of JDM 4-pots and H6 rears but it’s very unclear if the bias will be negatively impacted???

For example, from THIS thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow
...IMHO the best brake setup for any non STI imprezza is 4 pots up front, the Legacy upgrade in the back, and stainless lines. I ALMOST liked the braking in my WRX with that setup better than my STI. Its that good.
~Anybody know if this setup will work?

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Old 02-11-2006, 04:11 PM   #56
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it depends on the car initially.. read up some of the stoptech tecnnical info.. that's your best bet.

as for brake bias, you will have to come to a point of making the brakes work for you as a driver and whatever is comfortable for you to use.. there's no sense in making an upgrade that the driver can't control. It's up to the driver to upgrade the brakes to whatever they feel is necessary. Too much brake bias in the rear will make the car harder to keep under control as the rear end wants to lock up and slide out.. there's comfort zone to look for as it can get really scary when the rear end gets tail happy under trail braking...

2005 Legacy GT front brakes actually have larger pistons than the Subaru OEM 4-pots.. this change in size for me is actually a smaller caliper system, which will shift the brake bias to the rear (takes less fluid to move the smaller pistons and such).

If you go with too big of a brake kit in the rear and smaller in the front, you will have a car that will feel twitchy under braking (trail braking) into a turn, it's really going to rotate (but again, it depends on your mod and setup of the brakes).

I am currently looking for a set of used 2005 LGT brakes front and rear so I can upgrade the other RS for some better pedal feel and handle some good track hard braking track days for a much lesser cost and a full BBK kit. I have been looking around and at $800-mark for front and rear 05' GT brakes, it's gonna be a hell of a car to drive deep into the turns and a definite bang-for-the-buck. Another thing to note is that it's probably not neccessary to even upgrade the Master Cylinder (unless you really want to get even more clamping force out of the entire system).
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Old 02-11-2006, 04:17 PM   #57
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Unabomber, could you also add the prcing for the rear 05 brake parts (rotors, and calipers) to the 1st post in case anyone wants a set of vented brakes? It's a good upgrade for the track guys.
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Old 02-11-2006, 05:17 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xcntrk75
I see in this thread, this combination (H6 + 4-pot) is discussed in detail with the consensus being that the brake bias will be negatively impacted(?). I’ve also seen this same point discussed elsewhere.
don't hold my statement true, I had not run the numbers and was only repeating what I had been told (dumb)...I can however run the numbers in my brake torque spreadsheet if I can get effective braking diameters or the rotors, piston sizes, and number of pistons...I will set the pads coefficient of friction equal so we just see the torque produced by the caliper and rotor...
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Old 02-11-2006, 07:41 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xcntrk75
...~Anybody know if this setup will work?

Tim ran Stoptechs up front (much like the 4-pots they decrease front brake torque, smaller piston area IIRC) , and Legacy GT rears (big and vented) for a while and was totally happy with it, even at the track. Just from my brief time with Stoptechs + H6 rears (including bedding them in) I don't feel at all like the car is too loose/rear biased.

One other thing is you can always run more aggressive pads up front than in the rear if you're too worried about it. If I was tracking my setup, that's probably what I would do. *eyes Tim's leftover track pads*

john
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Old 02-11-2006, 08:01 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ButtDyno
Tim ran Stoptechs up front (much like the 4-pots they decrease front brake torque, smaller piston area IIRC) , and Legacy GT rears (big and vented) for a while and was totally happy with it, even at the track. Just from my brief time with Stoptechs + H6 rears (including bedding them in) I don't feel at all like the car is too loose/rear biased.

One other thing is you can always run more aggressive pads up front than in the rear if you're too worried about it. If I was tracking my setup, that's probably what I would do. *eyes Tim's leftover track pads*

john
I want some dimensions...subie four pots, the sti brembos and the stoptech piston diameters...also the diameters of the rotors that go with each...
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Old 02-11-2006, 10:35 PM   #61
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http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...el+spreadsheet

No piston diameters, but some torque numbers.

The 4-pots use the stock WRX rotors AFAIK (294x24)
The StopTech kit is 328x28
The stock rears are 266x10
The H6 rears are 290x10
[not 100% sure on all of those]

As far as the StopTech kit goes, it's 10% less front brake torque, BUT if you leave your rears completely stock, and use the Axxis pads in the BBK, it is roughly equal to stock brake torque:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Kelsch from StopTech
Although our kit for the 2002-2005 WRX has about 10% less brake torque
than stock when you ignore friction, the roughly 10% increase in
friction that Axxis Ultimate represents over the stock pads makes our
kit roughly equivalent to stock front brake torque.
So [ButtDyno's inference, not based on information from StopTech] the wierd thing is, they ended up deciding that the stock brake bias was ideal, since that's what they settled on, and all us H6'ers are pushing too much bias to the rear.

Or possibly more rear is still better, but they didn't want to get sued by someone who made a mistake with too much rear bias.

All speculation

For me, it doesn't feel unstable at all, and if I do track it I'll be adding serious pad to the fronts, and for autox speeds I'm not worried about it...

john
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Old 02-11-2006, 10:40 PM   #62
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Their research is great, but I just can't believe that a 10.3" (266mm) solid rotor is "ideal."

*shrug*

Oh, and yes, Subaru 4-pot rotor is the same as the OE WRX rotor.

=S2=
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Old 02-12-2006, 01:55 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Siper2
Oh, and yes, Subaru 4-pot rotor is the same as the OE WRX rotor.
yes, I know that...but everyone says it has smaller diameter pistons...I have the WRX fronts and can measure those...I need the calipers piston diameters that I don't have...
but oh well...I still want to see hard numbers so I can calculate the brake torque with various front and rear brake set ups...of course assuming line pressure, and coefficient to be equal...on variables would be pistons and rotors...neglecting caliper& mount deflection
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Old 02-12-2006, 02:15 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX
yes, I know that...but everyone says it has smaller diameter pistons...I have the WRX fronts and can measure those...I need the calipers piston diameters that I don't have...
but oh well...I still want to see hard numbers so I can calculate the brake torque with various front and rear brake set ups...of course assuming line pressure, and coefficient to be equal...on variables would be pistons and rotors...neglecting caliper& mount deflection
Check this out if you haven't seen it:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ighlight=excel
It's an Excel spreadsheet that Legacy777 put together:
http://www.main.experiencetherave.co.../brakemath.xls

Might shed some light on some of this, but we still wouldn't have the stoptech piston area numbers.

john
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Old 02-12-2006, 04:48 PM   #65
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eh...my excel is being retareded...I'll have to view it after I reload it from my office pro...
stupid computers
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Old 02-17-2006, 12:46 PM   #66
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what do you guys think of 4 pots in the front, stock brakes in the rear w/ carbotechs?
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Old 02-17-2006, 01:10 PM   #67
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That's not bad. I'm gonna probably do a setup like that but it's on a 97 with a swap, so the car is lighter.
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Old 02-17-2006, 01:39 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX
yes, I know that...but everyone says it has smaller diameter pistons...I have the WRX fronts and can measure those...I need the calipers piston diameters that I don't have...
but oh well...I still want to see hard numbers so I can calculate the brake torque with various front and rear brake set ups...of course assuming line pressure, and coefficient to be equal...on variables would be pistons and rotors...neglecting caliper& mount deflection

I'm guessing here that the 4-pot probably has a bit less torque than the 2-pot, but of course drastically improves modulation/feel and fade resistance...
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Old 02-17-2006, 07:00 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Siper2
I'm guessing here that the 4-pot probably has a bit less torque than the 2-pot, but of course drastically improves modulation/feel and fade resistance...
well, if the four pot has the same diameter pistons the it has the same torque and the benefits that you mentioned....
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Old 02-21-2006, 12:28 PM   #70
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Question

02 WRX Wagon owner:
I've installed Powerslot slotted cryo rotors in the front with Carbotech Bobcat pads. They definitely feel better than the stock rotors; no pad squealing either. I thought cryos would be a good investment - less wear.

I'm thinking of installing the H6 upgrade (using Powerslot cryo slotted rotors, 290x10) and Carbotech Bobcats in the rear also. Perhaps just plain cryo rotors would be fine?

Does anyone have any comments on this setup? Too much rear bias again?
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Old 02-21-2006, 01:22 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aclaz
02 WRX Wagon owner:
I've installed Powerslot slotted cryo rotors in the front with Carbotech Bobcat pads. They definitely feel better than the stock rotors; no pad squealing either. I thought cryos would be a good investment - less wear.

I'm thinking of installing the H6 upgrade (using Powerslot cryo slotted rotors, 290x10) and Carbotech Bobcats in the rear also. Perhaps just plain cryo rotors would be fine?

Does anyone have any comments on this setup? Too much rear bias again?
Lots of people have reported that 4-pots/H6 is a fine combination, and now that I have autocrossed it I'm no longer concerned about my StopTech/H6 combination. With stock fronts you should not have any problems.

My Bobcats on the stockers squealed a little, but it went away with a fresh application of blue goop...

john
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Old 02-25-2006, 08:56 AM   #72
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Finally got this upgrade finished and wanted to post up some local results. Run of the mill H6 setup; OE rotors, pads, and brackets. I had to swap out my rear calipers since they were the older 1-pot design and not compatible. Running newer H6 calipers instead and encountered a minor problem with the brake-line routing which must be different on the newer Outbacks. The H6 caliper brake-line mount directs the line towards the rear of the vehicle (no they’re not backwards) which is different from my original and therefore required some creative line mounting/routing. This took a bit of time to address but is otherwise good. I decided to keep my dust shield and after beating on it with a block of wood and hammer, I found that a plastic dead-blow hammer worked the best. They’re plastic so you can whack the shield directly without scaring it and they pack the power to bend the shield out enough to clear the rotor. I worked mine over so I have roughly 1/4~3/8” all the way around once the rotor is mounted. Figured it was better to keep the shield and have it protect a little, then with no protection by removing it all together.



Next up, front JDM 4-pots..
Thanks UB for putting together this info…
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Old 03-02-2006, 12:40 PM   #73
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Just ordered the upgrade for Shannon's WRX.

H6 Rotors(and brackets) in the rear with Carbotech Bobcats
Stock WRX Rotors in the front with Carbotech Bobcats.

Got the rotors and brackets from Jackie @ Annapolis. Good prices!
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Old 03-02-2006, 12:56 PM   #74
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I am looking at getting new calipers, brake pads, 2005 GT rear rotors and caliper brackets for an upgrade.. is there anything else that I would be missing?
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Old 03-02-2006, 12:59 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xenonk
I am looking at getting new calipers, brake pads, 2005 GT rear rotors and caliper brackets for an upgrade.. is there anything else that I would be missing?
Different upgrade... no?
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