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Old 11-16-2000, 09:20 AM   #1
JJTheSubeDriver
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Have a Nice Day? Why I think a 246HP USA WRX can not be a reality

I've learned alot about cars in general over the past year or so, and have also seen all the rumors about the new WRX fly around this board. Autoweek just came out with a 215HP figure, and some people are saying 227, and still more people are saying 246. Now, let's take a look at the reality of it:

1) Assuming the models use the same EJ20T engine with lower boost levels, maybe a different ECU, to get from a Japanese spec 246 to a european spec 218, it would make sense that they would also change those items for the US WRX.

2) We get crappy gas in the US compared to the rest of the world, so a 246HP figure would not make sense. With 215, I think you will still have to run premium either way, but do you really think SOA is going to give us a car that will detonate on our "Premium". Do you think they want us to stock up on octane boost? I don't think so.

It is for these simple reasons that unless they have some super-new technology that can get us the same boost and timing on our gasoline here, we should not expect anything over the 215HP mark as Autoweek has stated. Now, there is a chance to swap ecu's maybe, and get some octane boost, and get up to the 246, but then there goes the warranty

Just my thoughts, what are yours?

JJ
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Old 11-16-2000, 09:26 AM   #2
WRC666
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Build an all motor RS with properly done heads, cams, throttlebody, fuelsystemupgrade, headers and exhaust and you have about 200hp(guesstimated) in a 2 door.
The WRX will be something on its own anyways, because the body is stiffer, diiferent looking and the turbo. Is an evolutionstep higher than the RS. So is the price.
And it has 4 doors. The 218hp are plentyful in a small car like the RS, everyone talks big numbers, but who actually drove a 250hp car? I didn't, just passenger in a GT with WRX motor on US gas(about240hp). But that was already enough for me.
If its 218hp, everybody should be happy.
666
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Old 11-16-2000, 10:17 AM   #3
ColinL
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Post

#2 is wrong. Our pump gas is better than what everyone else in the world can get, except Japan's 101 RON, and Sunoco 94 is pretty close.

227HP is the number, believe it or don't.
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Old 11-16-2000, 10:34 AM   #4
Kevin Thomas
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Im no expert in the analysis of gasoline vs detonation in vehicles by any means. If what you say is true about 246hp'd WRX's having problems with detonation, then how is it that many 2.5RS's (with higher compression to boot), drive around all day without worry of detonation.....with more horsepower?
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Old 11-16-2000, 10:38 AM   #5
FatChanceTi
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he he he....

Colin, yer a sharp cookie......

RP
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Old 11-16-2000, 10:43 AM   #6
WRC666
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Ryan, I wonder who told you all this hp stuff.....
Let it snow , let it snow....
666
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Old 11-16-2000, 02:12 PM   #7
N/A
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I think what you left out is that the new cars will have to pass the new California emissions so they will require alot more detuning and added emissions equipment in order to pass the emissions test. Yes Sunoco 94 is somewhat close to the Japanese gas. Only in octane though since the US has more of certain chemicals in the fuel that the rest of the world doesn't. Sulfer for starters. Some states also don't have very many places where you will find 94 octane. When I was in Maryland all you ever saw would be 92 octane. Would you really want the factory to claim 240hp versus 215hp? Think about it by claiming more your only going to pay more for insurance and sticker price. You could always void your warranty and up your power later on. Reason I say void the warranty is because of what I've seen dealers go to in order to keep you from tampering with your engine. Oh and the final thing would be that the US has gotten screwed every year up to now so why think this next year would be any different. A slow phase in of turbo motors like what was done in the UK would be more likely.
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Old 11-16-2000, 04:22 PM   #8
subywuby
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The new copy of Automobile magazine has a review of the WRX and say that the US version should make between 220 and 230 giving us the same power that Europe is getting versus the Japanese version at 247. They say that the Japanese version has variable valve timing that had to be left off the US version to comply with our emission standards. They said Subaru claims 0-60 in 5.7 for Japanese version and they are guessing probably about 0-60 in 6.0 for us. Very glowing review.

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Old 11-16-2000, 04:54 PM   #9
T-WRX
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The big thing about the gas is that US gas does not have as strict a specification on sulfur content as Japan or Europe. This is why it is called "crappy gas."

The higher sulfur content means that we have to have bigger (and different) catalytic converters, and the compression ratio can't be as high. The cat is obvious, but I don't remember why the compression has to be lower. If someone knows, please post.
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Old 11-16-2000, 11:16 PM   #10
22 Lou
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hi all,
i know its off the post topic a bit but....N/A said that sunoco 94 is pretty close to japan ron 101. but he also said our gas has xtra chemicals in it(esp. sulfur).
does this mean our gas is more prone to produce detonation in an sti engine from japan b/c of those chemicals,or is detonation more a byproduct of the octane rating or is it both?
thanx in advance all!

-Lou
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Old 11-17-2000, 12:44 AM   #11
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The problem is that peopel don;t understand how US gas is trated. There is two methods, reaserch and motor. In the US we average them to keep people less confused about the rating. Elsewhere they use te much higher rated reserch. So if I recall corectly the 91 octane is something like 96-98 RON.

Then add the fact that Subaru ECU's are learning ones, and will play with timing and KEEP a lower setting on bad gas so detonation is not a problem on piss gas. However it throws away power doing this. My 88 Wagon would run fine on 15psi and 86 octane, but made about 5hp more than stock 8psi. Switching to premium after that made very little extra power, but reset the ECU and say hello to LOTS of power.
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Old 11-17-2000, 05:11 AM   #12
AKGC8
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I just wanted to add a few things.

The compression of the engine will not be a problem in the WRX as far as detonation goes. The Celica GTS has 11.5/1 compression ratio and has no problem on US gas(the S2000, and ITR are both up there as well). The problem with detonation would be having an engines timing set for very high octane gas. High octane gas has a very precise burn rate, but its also a slower burn rate. To tune a car to run on high octane, you have to time it so that the spark goes off while the piston is still on its way up. That way the slower burning gas has time to fully egnite at the precise point where the piston is on its way back down. If you run a lower grade gas in an engine like that you will be having combustion occur before the piston has reached full compression and thus you have detonation. Do not worry though, whatever SOA gives us there is no chance the engine will not be able to run fine on regular unleaded. Imagine how many warranty claims they would have to deal with if the car needed premium to run without detonating.
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Old 11-17-2000, 02:05 PM   #13
Jude DeMeis
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Lightbulb

According to email I once recieved from Don Cook, Sunoco Fuels Quality Specialist, "The research octane number for Sunoco Ethanol Ultra 94 gasoline is 98.0"

England gets 97 RON (equivalent to USA 93 octane)
Mainland Europe gets 98 RON (equivalent to Sunoco Ultra 94)
Japan gets 100 RON (would compare to 95-96 in USA)

As for the HP spec on the US car, I'm going to place my bets on 215hp as well. Look at all of the other 2 liter turbos that have been sold here like SAAB and Mitsu- the US tune is usually between the 185hp-205 hp mark. To me, 215hp sounds very realistic for the US WRX which will be designed to run on 92 octane (the best fuel available in some parts of the country).
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Old 11-18-2000, 08:09 AM   #14
MarbleTurtle
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The horsepower issue is not gas related, its insurance related. How many Japo mega horsepower cars have flopped after 3 months of sales success... RX7, SupraTT, VR4, etc. Only gold chained clad old farts way past middle age can afford the insurance and they want to parade around in drop top Porsches. Eclipse turbos sold reasonably well at 220hp... (RX7s at 250 did not) Subaru is watching Mitsubishi recent success closely so we won't see anything more than 220hp.
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Old 11-18-2000, 08:16 AM   #15
T-WRX
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Let's hope that the fact it has 4-doors will help with the insurance classification. Afterall, 4dr Cadillacs have 300 hp, and those rates can't be too bad.

Doesn't the class have to do with hp/wt ratio, and past model history? All these recent 2.5 RS's getting totalled is not a good thing. Drive careful out there!!
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Old 11-18-2000, 09:47 AM   #16
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Cool

I just saw the december issue of the Automobile magazine and it has confirmed that we are getting the 247 Hp with 247lbs of torgue.I saw it at the news stands and they say the price estimate is 25000. Well I know I will be putting my order in.
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Old 11-19-2000, 09:57 PM   #17
P.K. Motorsports
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1) The insurance rating is not a function of horsepower, number or doors, or any physical feature of the car, for that matter. It is based on the mean claim dollars filed on that car. If a Cadillac turned out to have a higher average claims volume than a WRX, the Cadillac would get a higher collision premium. The reason for the high insurance premia on the Japanese supercars here is not their horsepower rating, it is too many kids wrecking them.

The liability figure is based largely on your area, driving history, and age/sex, and only in small part on the car. Comprehensive is based on the average cost to the insurance companies of covered repairs on the car.

2) In Europe gasoline has a nominal (and in some places mandated) sensitivity of 10 in most countries. That means 99 RON would get an octane (or "anti-knock") rating of 94. Sunoco 94 might have a sensitivity as high as 15 or 16, which would mean a RON of 102. Anyway, you can't compare anti-knock and RON unless you know the sensitivities. The MON is a better indicator of the tendency to knock, but companies don't like to quote that because it is easier to mix a fuel which gets a good RON than it is to get a good MON. Sunoco 94 might have a MON of only 87 or so, no better than 92 octane fuel with an honest sensitivity of 10.

3) You can get a 280 horse WRX here, legally, even if it starts with 220. The reason is that unlike a NA engine you have an avenue through which to force the engine to consume more air and fuel. Exhaust design and quality has a big effect on a turbo car. You can save the stock exhaust and fit a big-ass collector, downpipe, and free-flowing muffler for better spool-up and more power. A good intake has a magnified effect on a turbo car due to the volume of air which must pass through it. But the biggest thing you have power with is the boost. A performance chip can up the boost and alter the fuel and timing curves to match for immediate power. In some engines (Audi 1.8T, for example) 35 horsepower may be added by the chip alone. Combine the intake, exhaust, and chip and you've got a 280 hp WRX. If things go wrong you can put the stock intake and exhaust back on, and (if you were thinking ahead when you wired it in) remove the chip with no traces.
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Old 11-20-2000, 02:59 AM   #18
WRXrumors
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Didn't somebody in another post mention the extent that most car companies in other countries will go to to keep somebody from altering their car and trying to get away with it. Has anybody actually looked around and asked how many of these EJ20 parts are CARB approved? Since the engine hasn't been in the US before its a pretty good bet that alot of the parts we'd want won't be legal to use on street driven vehicles. I wonder what the cats on the new WRX will look like on the US model. Or should I say how many and how large are they?
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Old 11-20-2000, 04:39 AM   #19
KC
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WRXRumors...

If the aftermarket parts are not Carb Certified, all that means is that they can't be used in California. (CARB - California Air Resource Board). It's almost an open market on all the other states. All it takes is time and the parts will be approved for use in CA.

Federal law prohibits removing of a functional Catalytic converter. It says it right on Random Technology's ad in the last SCC. But you do it anyway. And it's still a cat so it'll pass emissions.

2.5" - 3" Exhuast...can probably come right from Subaru parts. (I want to order one when I order my WRX). If the car "came that way" (with the exhaust) from the dealer, who can complain?

--KC
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Old 11-20-2000, 02:58 PM   #20
AlphaDog
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Can't we all just admit that none of us know as much as we think we do?

-Dog
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Old 11-20-2000, 03:22 PM   #21
glenstiles
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Yeah, I think that as long as the car has over 200 horses and a turbo, its gonna be OK. Really.


Glen
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Old 11-20-2000, 03:54 PM   #22
MarbleTurtle
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... and I hear the new undercoating protects against scurvey!

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Old 11-20-2000, 05:55 PM   #23
direwlf
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Wouldn't a melon-launcher help in this regard as well? Eat your fruits, ladies and gents
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Old 11-21-2000, 03:05 PM   #24
Silky
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Thumbs down

Silky says American Auto companies have small nuts. the mitsu gsx does have 215 so be real and expect that. And that's pushing it. Lame @$$ American auto crap frick #$#@#$@#
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Old 11-21-2000, 03:17 PM   #25
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?
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