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Old 03-28-2004, 10:13 PM   #1
ilmaestro
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Default Swapped headgaskets... car won't start. PLEASE HELP!

As the title said. I checked all the connections and everything looks ok. I can't find anything that I missed. I had a friend helping so we double checked everything along the way. The engine turns and sounds like it wants to start but it just won't. The exhaust sound is like boom boom..... boom boom............ boom boom...... boom boom.... I think that's the typical subaru noise when starting the car? My fear would be the timing belt not being on right but we checked it many times before putting everything together. There were 5 yellow lines on the belt. The center line went on the crank sprocket. The other lines lined up with the sprockets and the sprockets were set so the double hash marks faced eachother. I followed the manual. I have no idea what to try. How do we know if the car is getting enough fuel (The tank is getting close to empty, but the light isn't on yet)? What could be wrong?

Please help.
jonathan
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Old 03-28-2004, 10:48 PM   #2
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Could be a variety of things.

Make sure you have your injector plugs going to the right places.
Make sure the crank sensor and cam sensor are plugged in.
My car wouldn't start at first either. The main engine harness didn't have a good connection and I wasn't getting anything. Try disconnecting everything, applying a little dielectric grease and reconnecting the main harness, cam, and cranks sensor plugs. If doesn't work then the timing belt might be off.

Make sure the engine ground on top of intake manifold is securely snugged down and has good contact. I spent a long ass time trying to diagnose electrical gremlins after I did my HG's only to find that I never torqued the engine ground down all the way.

Did you actually count teeth when doing the timing belt or did you just rely on the markings of the belt?

Is the fuel pump priming when you turn the ignition on? After cranking is there fuel on the spark plugs?

Ok that was kinda scattered, but should give you some things to look over. More than likely it is an electrical problem...but I'm not sure about the exhaust noise. If you counted teeth and double or triple checked your tooth count then you can kinda rule out the timing belt.

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Old 03-28-2004, 10:53 PM   #3
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Did you set the crank gear hash marks up before you took everything apart?

there is a mark on the engine cover and a mark on the crank gear that needs to be lined up, as well as the double hash marks facing each other.

the each yellow line will line up with the single hash at the 12 o'clock postion, where the notch is in the plastic timing cover as well as on the side there is also a notch in the timing cover that the other yellow line has to match up with.

IIRC there should be a dotted line that lines up with the crank gear hash mark not a solid line, but im not 100% sure about that.

It sounds like your out of time, the boom boom noise makes me think that even more. Ive heard many out of time motors and you get that popping through the exhaust when its out of time.

LMK if you set up the crank right, we can go from there.

Jay
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Old 03-28-2004, 11:15 PM   #4
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Good point about the crank sprocket. Though I recommend counting teeth over lining up the lines on the belt with the cover or marks on the cam sprokets.
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Old 03-29-2004, 01:09 AM   #5
ilmaestro
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Thanks for the responses. I feel like I want to have given up a long time ago. This is very stressful. The crank and cam sensors are plugged in ok.

When I turn on the ignition, I hear a squeal or something that I think is the fuel pump priming for a second? Not sure. It's the same sound I've always had. I also am not sure how to tell if there is fuel on the spark plug wires. I smelled them a while after we cranked the car, but I didn't smell anything.

I lined up the timing using the yellow lines as oppose to counting teeth. I had no idea how many teeth I should count. The alldata reference just said to use the yellow lines and showed diagrams of the sprockets and the timing belt markers all lined up, just like the diagrams in the subaru manual I've seen. With the timing belt and all the lines... it would seem pretty hard to screw up, although I have no idea what my problem is. There are two solid yellow lines on each side and one dotted line in the middle for the crank. Each cam has the double markers on them that point towards each other and the lower cam has a single mark that points out, and the upper cam has a single mark that points up. The timing belt yellow lines line up with these, and the dotted yellow line lines up with the crank sprocket which has a marker pointing up. The driver side cam sprockets had to be held into position with a wrench in order to get the markers lined up right before putting the belt on. All went well though. One thing to note... this is very very terrible.... but the timing belt guide is not in there. I am not sure what this does, but how would this effect timing? I've heard someone mention before that it isn't needed.

The sensors are all plugged in and the engine ground is on good I think. That's the one that connects to the bracket on the upper tranny bolt... right? The car is at a friends house where I did the work so I won't be able to get to it tomorrow... but I don't think I want to take it all apart again.

Is there an easy way to tell if the timing is off? I can pull off the two side timing covers without taking out the radiator or any belts. Can i just manually crank the crank pulley until the markers line up and verify that it is all good?

One more thing. The check engine light is on. I am not sure what it could be about and I don't have a scanner. Maybe I can purchase one tomorrow and return it later? Any guesses?

jonathan

Last edited by ilmaestro; 03-29-2004 at 01:26 AM.
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Old 03-29-2004, 02:15 AM   #6
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If you can get the code that would help.

I know you said the marker on the crank gear was facing up, I dont remember if that is exactly where the marker is on the engine cover.

Did you have that marker on the crank gear lined up with the mark on the engine cover, that is very important. When I say engine cover I mean the aluminum part there is a mark embossed in the aluminum on the engine. There is a single (i think) mark on the pointer on the crank gear, these have to be lined up. The dotted line should be lined up with that marker.

Before you take things back apart pull that code. Ive done quite a few DOHC timing belts, I know how much of a pain they are to get lined up, especially when those driverside cams descide to spin.

was there alot of coolant left in the cylinders or did you clean them out.

on the chance it may be flooded, try holding the gas pedel to the floor, crank the engine while doing this for 10 seconds at a time, repeat about 2 to 3 times, giving the starter a 10-15 second break inbetween cranking.

then see if you can start the car.

Jay
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Old 03-29-2004, 02:18 AM   #7
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You can take the covers off but you will have to crank it forever to get those to line up again. And just because the cams are lined up doesnt mean the crank is in the correct position.

But like I said get the code pulled first. I think you just might be looking over something that is unplugged, It really sounds like you follwed all the steps correcty. Im just leary about wether or not you lined the crank up properly.

Jay
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Old 03-29-2004, 08:51 AM   #8
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The ground on the top of the intake manifold is the one I was referring to. It sounds like things should be good. Like I said before, go get some dielectric grease from the autoparts store and disconnect your connections, apply some grease to the connections and reattach them. It could easily be something that "looks" connected but actually isn't.

I always counted teeth when I did it. It seemed to work better.
Did I send you the service procedure for the Timing Belt? It has the tooth count. If you end up taking the belt off try using that method to ensure that it's on correctly.

Don't give up man, you've come this far. It'll work, you just need to keep at it.

Brian
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Old 03-29-2004, 12:26 PM   #9
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Thanks for the responses again guys. The manuals (subaru and alldata) didn't mention lining up the crank sprocket with the engine cover.. I'm pretty sure. I know that alldata didn't. I just didn't know to do that. All I did for the crank sprocket was point it straight up and make sure the dotted line on the belt was right on the marker on the sprocket. The cam sprockets on the drivers side were a pain, but I had a friend hold them steady with a pair of breaker bars while I put the timing belt on, so the marks lined up fine. I wish I counted teeth now though!!!

As for coolant in the engine... the cylinders were clean and there was a tiny bit of coolant around the outside of the cylinder walls, but I left it there. I tried pretty much every technique of starting the car, cranking it, giving it gas... it just wouldn't go. I'm going to pick up a scanner and scan the code in a few hours when I get back there. I'll post my findings. Also, I'll try checking connections and using dialectic grease. Hopefully though the engine error code will help. Suppose that the timing is off... what engine code should I expect?

Edit: by the way, what do you guys think about the timing belt guide not being in there? Like I said, I heard that it is not necessary and is only used for when the cars are shipped, that the belt doesn't slip.

Also Brian: The only engine ground I remember disconnecting was one that goes to a bracket on the upper drivers side transmisison bolt... I don't remember one on the intake manifold?

jonathan

Last edited by ilmaestro; 03-29-2004 at 01:10 PM.
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Old 03-29-2004, 01:23 PM   #10
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Well the timing belt guide is there to keep the belt from jumping teeth. That is the area where the most stress is placed on the belt and it has the greatest likelyhood of jumping with sharp torque increases or fast changes in engine speed.

I'll have to dig out a picture of the ground I'm talking about. It's on the passengers side of the plenum on the top, kinda in front of the IAC. I'm not sure if you "need" to remove it to get the manifold off or the engine out. I can't remember. But I know it has a 10mm bolt It's the ground for the main engine harness/sensors and stuff.
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Old 03-29-2004, 06:19 PM   #11
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Ok. So about the worst thing happened that could have happened. I had the crank sprocket in the wrong position when the timing belt went on. I had the arrow pointed up as oppose to the marker. I wonder what the arrow is for other than to throw me off since I didn't see any other marker. What can happen bad if the crank isn't lined up right. Bent valves, scraped pistons, etc? I'm screwed.

jonathan

Last edited by ilmaestro; 03-29-2004 at 06:37 PM.
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Old 03-29-2004, 06:44 PM   #12
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how far off was the crank? IIRC the marker on the engine cover is at maybe 1 o'clock.

take everything apart and line it back up the way it should be, I think you'll be fine.

Jay
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Old 03-29-2004, 06:58 PM   #13
ilmaestro
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Ok, so initially the crank sprocket has that arrow on it. I had the arrow at 12:00 and lined that arrow up with the timing belt mark. I didn't know that the arrow wasn't what I was suppose to go by and that there was another mark somewhere that needed to be at 12:00... I couldn't find anything else. So.

I ended up having the covers taken off again and the belt lined it up... car started... bang bang boom bang, and I turned it off really fast. I guess the valves or pistons got messed up when I was trying to start it before? What do you think? It sounds like internal damage though. I am trying to get a hold of a really good local independant subaru mechanic, but havn't gotten a hold of him yet.

jonathan
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Old 03-29-2004, 07:06 PM   #14
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Hard to say. It doesnt sound like you had it to far out time that it would have damaged the valves.

I might be brave and try and start it up again. Did it run like crap for the brief time you had it running?

You could do a compresion test if you have a compresion tester, that will let you know right away if your fugged up a valve.

Jay
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Old 03-29-2004, 08:26 PM   #15
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I am pretty scared to start it again. It made some loud noises and it isn't right for sure... something isn't normal. Since the crankshaft was off by about 45 degrees when I initially had the timing belt on, I probably bent some valves when I was cranking it? Who knows. At this point I'll be happy if the block and pistons are ok and all that is wrong is bent valves. I'll just chalk it up as an expensive valve adjustment. I talked to the local independant subaru mechanic and he's going to have a look at it on Wendesday. I will feel safest with my car in his hands since he is well known locally for doing very good work much cheaper then a dealer. I'll post back with some findings and stuff. Now I gotta find some cashhhhhhhh.

jonathan
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Old 03-29-2004, 08:41 PM   #16
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Dude, that sucks hard. Keep us posted as to what's up.
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Old 03-29-2004, 08:47 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mancini
Dude, that sucks hard. Keep us posted as to what's up.
Yeah. If I had a ton of free time, I would tear it back apart myself. But I rented the engine hoist, and at this point (during the week) I have school and work and homework and I just have to take it to the mechanic. The one bit of good fortune is that the mechanic is 5 miles away from where the car is now, so at least towing the car won't kill me.

Let this be a lesson to all. Know that there are two markers on the crank sprocket, not one, and that the arrow is not the marker you want to follow.

jonathan
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Old 03-30-2004, 10:03 AM   #18
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Second lesson: never rent an engine hoist. Always buy one. Usually, if *everything* goes *exactly* right... you'll end up spending about half of what it cost to buy the hoist!

And do you really think you'll never need one again in your whole life?!?!

You should be able to look up whether this is a interferance or non-interferance engine pretty easily. Somewhere.

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Old 03-30-2004, 06:04 PM   #19
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the subaru 2.5L engines are all interference engines.

45 degrees is a alot. Sucks you had this happen.

Good Luck with the repairs.

Jay
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Old 03-30-2004, 09:52 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by anders8
Second lesson: never rent an engine hoist. Always buy one. Usually, if *everything* goes *exactly* right... you'll end up spending about half of what it cost to buy the hoist!
I wouldn't mind buying an engine hoist, except I live in an apartment and the hoist would be a little big to fit in my closet I look forward to the day I live in a house though!

jonathan
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Old 03-31-2004, 02:25 AM   #21
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ru8 sure theyre all intereference engines?
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