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Old 04-06-2004, 10:16 AM   #1
makofoto
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Question What Spring Rates are Wagon AutoX'ers using ?

See my thread "Possible Solution to Mako's Camber problems?"

We want to add spring rates and ratios to the mix ... to see what successful Wagon campaigners are using ...
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Old 04-06-2004, 10:38 AM   #2
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8K (450#) front
10K (550#) rear

JIC FLT-A2's

-Steve
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Old 04-06-2004, 10:42 AM   #3
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8K Front 10K rear. Tein RA
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Old 04-06-2004, 10:44 AM   #4
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Would it make a difference if one has the rear gutted, ie. no rear seat, seat back, spare, jack, light fuel ...
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Old 04-06-2004, 11:01 AM   #5
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Rear seat doesn't weigh much, and the spare, jack are removed along with running on less than 1/4 tank of gas.
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Old 04-06-2004, 11:03 AM   #6
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Not really. I have all the above removed, except for the rear seat.

-Steve
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Old 04-06-2004, 11:06 AM   #7
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The seat back has a decent amount of weight ... I'm under 3,000 lbs ... and that was before going to a 12 lb battery ... but I understand what you are saying.

Anyone know which conversion to use going between K and pounds/inch

conversion site: http://www.onlineconversion.com/
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Old 04-06-2004, 11:54 AM   #8
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kgmm x 56 = "lb

the wagon doesnt weigh that much more than the sedan. so specivic wagon rates arent necessary.

10k all around on spidey's sm monster
JIC (and plenty of dampening to go)
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Old 04-06-2004, 12:02 PM   #9
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Stock. On both my 02 and 04.

Although, "successful" can certainly be debated...
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Old 04-06-2004, 12:22 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by lo-buck
the wagon doesnt weigh that much more than the sedan. so specivic wagon rates arent necessary.
However where it's located is a big issue when talking about controlling a car in a turn.

85lbs, up high, in the rear of the car, behind the axles.

Gives a totally different feel to the car than a sedan.
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Old 04-06-2004, 12:27 PM   #11
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However where it's located is

yea, ur right about that
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Old 04-06-2004, 12:34 PM   #12
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Why MORE spring weight in the REAR of an AutoX Wagon ... as opposed to the stock and usual after market spring pairings?
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Old 04-06-2004, 12:44 PM   #13
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all the off the shelf springs are soft and (sometimes) progressive as well as stiffer front. thus promoting understeer (albeit less than stock). they may feel nice on the street, but in an autocross situation, they just arent enough to control roll. esp in a mac strut car, roll is your enimy more so that other suspension designs because you will loose camber on compression of suspension. also, progressive springs increase spring rate as they compress. which means they sick till they compress which means body roll. roll is the last thing you want. makes transittions slower.
a linear spring is constant all the way from static to full compression.

now, as for stiffer rear rates, that helps the car rotate better. i like to stay away from big sways on awd cars because you dont want to lift the tire. once u do that, you loose corner exit acceleration grip (unless u get a clutch type diff )

hoe that didnt confuse you too much.
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Old 04-06-2004, 12:45 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by makofoto
Why MORE spring weight in the REAR of an AutoX Wagon ... as opposed to the stock and usual after market spring pairings?
The issue is getting rotation on (relatively) slow autox courses. The higher rear spring rates help significantly for autox, at the expense of some high speed stability. Car setup is all about trade-off's.

BTW - It's not just the wagon. Tom's running the same spring rates on his sedan.

IMHO - most of the stock coilover setups are overly front-biased (8/6, 7/5, etc.). For general/track use, I prefer even F/R spring rates.

-Steve
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Old 04-06-2004, 02:16 PM   #15
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I missed that day when K was introduced to measure spring rates; I'm used to lb/square inch.

What is "K"? After some searching, I came up with: kgf/mm? Read: Kilogramfoot/milimeter? Is this correct?

and why is it used instead of #?

Thanks!
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Old 04-06-2004, 02:29 PM   #16
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It's used for metric spring rates. It is kgf/mm.
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Old 04-06-2004, 02:31 PM   #17
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Euros don't use # ... Japanese are being nice to us when they use #
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Old 04-06-2004, 02:53 PM   #18
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Got it! That makes sense now. Of course, now I need to figure out which one I like more!

KC: How's it going??? When are you going to come down my way so we can go toe-toe in our wagons?

Oh, and to reinforce what was said above about higher rates in the rear: They definitely help improve rotation. I had 400/450# f/r in my RS, and it handled beautifully for autox. After playing a bit with the sway bars, I was able to get a very NEUTRAL handling car that worked well on all kinds of autox courses, as well as street and highway.
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Old 04-06-2004, 02:59 PM   #19
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Come down there? I thought it was your turn to trek up here? And bring that sally ass p-car loving friend Pilot with you.
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Old 04-06-2004, 03:16 PM   #20
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Quote:
And bring that sally ass p-car loving friend Pilot with you.


I think I'll have to do that!
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Old 04-06-2004, 03:30 PM   #21
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i can't divulge much information without kC's expressed consent, but i can offer this much. i helped convince keith to use the 8k/10k setup after i rode with him on one run and felt how the car didn't want to turn. if i had known at the time what i now know about keith's setup, i would have recommended 10k front/8-10k rear.

nate

ps. don't sacrifice roll stiffness to prevent "lifting" a tire. swaybars are good!
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Old 04-06-2004, 05:16 PM   #22
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yey, another vote for 10kf/r
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Old 04-07-2004, 10:43 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by solo-x
i can't divulge much information without kC's expressed consent, but i can offer this much. i helped convince keith to use the 8k/10k setup after i rode with him on one run and felt how the car didn't want to turn. if i had known at the time what i now know about keith's setup, i would have recommended 10k front/8-10k rear.

nate

What about his setup makes you want to recommend 10k front / 8-10k rear?
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Old 04-07-2004, 11:06 AM   #24
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Rephrased:

Quote:
after i rode with him on one run and felt how the car didn't want to turn on 8K/6K, i helped convince keith to use the 8k/10k setup
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Old 04-07-2004, 11:15 AM   #25
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Right, but why 10k front? The 8k/10k makes sense; not sure how the 10k/8-10k thing would work? That's where my comes in.

On a side note, I'm presuming that this car is a trailer queen with spring rates like that.
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