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Old 04-07-2004, 07:35 PM   #1
Machine Age Victim
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Default My ram air from hood scoop setup

I just redid my intake setup, this should be the best way to use the hood scoop on an N/A:







give me ideas!

-jeff
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Old 04-07-2004, 07:42 PM   #2
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So the air goes through the scoop into the K&N panel filter? Is there anything to protect it from water ingestion?
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Old 04-07-2004, 08:04 PM   #3
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Whoa that looks pretttyyy freakin cool. But yeah.. what happens when it rains?
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Old 04-07-2004, 09:07 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aphex28
But yeah.. what happens when it rains?
as someone else said:

Quote:
Originally posted by Dr Ken
Uggh, I don't mean to inflame, but I just feel I need to speak frankly.
There is a deeply held belief of the culture of this forum that rain ingestion is a real damaging entity. I would ask for substantiation of this theoretic concern, as I will contend that it is simply a myth.
I would advise that the aviation community has been using our Subaru engines, with raw ingestion of foul weather for decades. Their intake is basically some foam and about 8 to 12" of wide ducting... pretty much like a 'gravelsport'. What is more is that the typical cruising revs of these aviation engines is about 2400 RPM, not atypical from ours. The interest in the EJ blocks with essential stock internals, has only grown in interest as a very robust and reliable engine in the interim. As you can imagine, this is with very strict concern of resultant damage from adverse weather conditions. The fact remains, ingestion of rain into these engine poses no adverse effect as determined by people who places the lives of themselves and their passengers on their engine's performance ... and of the liable bureaucrats that insure this practice. I would defy (and, in fact, appreciate) anyone to find evidence to the contrary.

Now, hydrolocking is a large and sudden bolus of ingested non-compressible fluid, such as from a cold air intake introduced into standing water. No question this is a cause of real damage. This is an entirely different entity from that of raw rain ingestion.

Thanks,
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Old 04-08-2004, 01:23 AM   #5
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dude dont worry about the water ingestion its rain like mad a couple of times since i did mine three weeks ago and i havnt had any problems. to keep people from arguein the same stuff again go to http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...hreadid=531385 i dont think any new info has surfaced. and before anyone says anything about mine being a cone and his being a panel i taped a t shirt at the base of the scoop and drove around in a rainstorm for about a hour and the shirt barely got even a drop on it. how did you do it are there still parts of the factory airbox still there.
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Old 04-08-2004, 03:16 AM   #6
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so have you noticed any difference since you've added this extra scooping part?? I'm curious because i'm thinking about doing that to my current setup which is:

http://www.rs25.com/forums/showthrea...=custom+intake

I'm thinking it'll bring back the "torque box" characteristics if i enclose all of that air going into the box.

Any experience or advice is appreciated...
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Old 04-08-2004, 10:04 AM   #7
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What I noticed: immediatly after I noticed that when my car goes through the pattended Subaru hesitation at 4k when it comes out at about 4.5k it pulls ALOT harder (it throws you back) I don't know if thats because of wind flowing in or not, but the top end is optimized, my bottom end is the same as my old setup with pretty much a panel filter and open back.

I think the "torque box" characteristics include the shape of the back of the box to be able to distribute the air evenly, from left to right, over the whole filter (like an A/C system, the duct gets smaller and smaller but all blows the same) with my setup I'm betting on there being a surplus of air that's "trapped" and then forced to the top of the filter.

As for making your own...... it wasn't fun, and if you wait long enough you can plop down a little money and buy an ABS plastic version from me once I get them made

-jeff
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Old 04-08-2004, 11:12 AM   #8
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Wow, that really looks like a great design, Jeff. Heavy particles (like water drops, grasshoppers, etc) will impact, then ride down the back wall, away from the panel. It even looks like any water collection (like car wash, etc) would simply drain out the bottom 'hinge.' I like the lower lip where the bonnette mates onto it. I suppose when the engine kicks (especially at startup) it would need sufficient cushioning to allow for that movement. Now that I think of it, I wonder how much actual 'ram' we'd get so close to the surface layer of the car at anything less than scary-fast speeds. My guess is that the intake of air into the plenum is pretty much entirely driven by suction of the motor, as it is rather hard to compress air into a box. Which may call into question the necessity of sealing the lower lip at all. Certainly, it would minimize contamination of hot air from the engine bay. It would be nice to experiment a little. I think that you should be nominated for the Clever Scoobie award.
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Old 04-08-2004, 11:13 AM   #9
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when will they be made? im not the kinda person who likes to wait
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Old 04-08-2004, 12:01 PM   #10
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very cool design. keep us informed
Shane
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Old 04-08-2004, 12:12 PM   #11
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Dr Ken, I plan on doing a string/tape test (to see air flow across the surface of the car) we'll see what happens at different speeds

Piker, the CF place said it would take 5-7weeks once I give the go ahead, I don't have a price yet but I would imagine I'd need 20 orders first

if anyone knows of a good ABS fabricators then let me know

-jeff
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Old 04-08-2004, 02:30 PM   #12
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how did you attach the plastic extension (scoop) part onto the existing half of the stock air box? Also what material did you use for the scoop part???

I'm very interested and might change my setup to yours because Dr. Ken brought up a good point about rain running down the back side and down into possible drilled holes at the bottom...instead of directly into the filter like my current setup does.
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Old 04-08-2004, 02:48 PM   #13
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i wonder if people know it takes approx a teaspoon of water in a combustion chamber to hydrolock an engine

nice idea, but when it rains you might want to put a towel in there
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Old 04-08-2004, 03:22 PM   #14
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it's sheet metal, when water does enter the scoop it does what Dr Ken said, my old setup was tested and tha is what happened. btw the filter has an edge on it so that the filter doesn't touch where water would drain to

your right, one teaspoon in a single combustion chamber would hydrolock an engine... however i think that would be pretty hard to do considering the characteristics of an air filter and the number of cylinders
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Old 04-08-2004, 03:38 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by HndaTch627
i wonder if people know it takes approx a teaspoon of water in a combustion chamber to hydrolock an engine

nice idea, but when it rains you might want to put a towel in there

Quote:
Originally posted by Dr Ken
Uggh, I don't mean to inflame, but I just feel I need to speak frankly.
There is a deeply held belief of the culture of this forum that rain ingestion is a real damaging entity. I would ask for substantiation of this theoretic concern, as I will contend that it is simply a myth.
I would advise that the aviation community has been using our Subaru engines, with raw ingestion of foul weather for decades. Their intake is basically some foam and about 8 to 12" of wide ducting... pretty much like a 'gravelsport'. What is more is that the typical cruising revs of these aviation engines is about 2400 RPM, not atypical from ours. The interest in the EJ blocks with essential stock internals, has only grown in interest as a very robust and reliable engine in the interim. As you can imagine, this is with very strict concern of resultant damage from adverse weather conditions. The fact remains, ingestion of rain into these engine poses no adverse effect as determined by people who places the lives of themselves and their passengers on their engine's performance ... and of the liable bureaucrats that insure this practice. I would defy (and, in fact, appreciate) anyone to find evidence to the contrary.

Now, hydrolocking is a large and sudden bolus of ingested non-compressible fluid, such as from a cold air intake introduced into standing water. No question this is a cause of real damage. This is an entirely different entity from that of raw rain ingestion.

There are many who have plugged a cone on the intake and noticed loss in low end ... something about a standing wave to maintain this...but the physics is beyond me. The intakes that perform have a minimum length.

Thanks,
learn to read PLZKTHX
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Old 04-08-2004, 03:54 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Alpha_32
learn to read PLZKTHX
he was bringing another view to the table

learn to **** and not make pointless posts, people can easily see both posts without needing you to quote em
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Old 04-08-2004, 03:57 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Alpha_32
learn to read PLZKTHX
yes i know how to read, and it's wonderful but you can't funnel out a downpour at 70mph furthermore since i do work on cars EVERY DAY OF THE WEEK i would say that i have a pretty decent knowledge base to be able to say that this DOES run a high risk of hydrolocking an engine, i have watched a purley stock vehicle get over 1 quart of water pulled from the intake manifold and pistons, that was driving thru an 8" puddle...it happens, you can't prevent it, remember that airplane engien intakes are shaped different and have drain holes.


don't assume just because it works for an airplane it works for a car.....in any case good luck
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Old 04-08-2004, 03:59 PM   #18
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when you do your string tape test i think you will find dr. ken was on the right track its not so much ram air as it is the engine sucking in the cool air. watch out for plastic bags though. the day before i put mine in for the tranny i was going down the high way and had a plastic grocery bag get sucked in and it wrapped it self around the filter and almost sufficated my engine before i could pull over and shut the car off. all i had to do with my setup was put some screening across the base of the scoop but were your intake cant pull air from the engine id be careful.
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Old 04-08-2004, 07:29 PM   #19
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hey uh..piker? ****you KTHXBI
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Old 04-08-2004, 07:49 PM   #20
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your such a tool
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Old 04-08-2004, 10:05 PM   #21
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I was just trying a little thought experiment. If you mentally imagine a few square inches of your windshield driving fast through a downpour there still isn't just a huge amount of water there, and one could argue that if we're talking a true blinding deluge, you should be driving close to zero mph. What is a heavy downpour? Still only a few inches an hour. Also, what form is the water in after it passes through the filter? tiny droplets? mist? Plus, I suspect some of the water is going to turn to steam upon getting close to or entering the combustion chamber on intake.
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Old 04-08-2004, 10:11 PM   #22
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exactly, unless you got bored one day and decided to take a teaspoon of water, remove ur intake an poor it threw the throttle body, yeah you will hydrolock ur engine.
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Old 04-08-2004, 10:23 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by 1 Lucky Texan
I was just trying a little thought experiment. If you mentally imagine a few square inches of your windshield driving fast through a downpour there still isn't just a huge amount of water there, and one could argue that if we're talking a true blinding deluge, you should be driving close to zero mph. What is a heavy downpour? Still only a few inches an hour. Also, what form is the water in after it passes through the filter? tiny droplets? mist? Plus, I suspect some of the water is going to turn to steam upon getting close to or entering the combustion chamber on intake.
your right on man

the opportunity for a full teaspoon to enter a single combustion chamber is pretty tough to do

HndaTch627, I agree with you about the increased chance of hydrolock with an "exposed" filter, but if I had the slightest chance of it happening then I wouldn't have this system on my car. To compare my setup with someone who hydrolocked their engine with any different system isn't relevant. I kept the intake up high so I didn't run the chance of submerging the filter, I added a non-direct flow of air to distrupt the current of rain, and I do have drain holes at the bottom incase any sizable amounts of water do enter... what else is there?
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Old 04-08-2004, 10:25 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Alpha_32
exactly, unless you got bored one day and decided to take a teaspoon of water, remove ur intake an poor it threw the throttle body, yeah you will hydrolock ur engine.
it would have to be more, like four teaspoons and you would have to make sure that all of it was injested at the same time
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Old 04-09-2004, 01:48 AM   #25
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so what kind of gains did you notice from the stock setup??? I'm thinking of converting my setup to urs.....wondering if there will be a difference in performance...aside from the safety aspects.
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