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Old 08-17-2004, 07:01 PM   #326
STi_Drift
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Where is Phil from Element? For an expert he doesn't seem to be giving ANY advice to people. I realize some of us never bought from him, but it would be good of him to offer his help. I know it would have saved me tons of time and pain.
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Old 08-17-2004, 07:13 PM   #327
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So, you guys went around him, bought a unit, can't get it to work, and expect his help?

Seriously though... my car started right up, with the default map. I didn't even turn my laptop on, it just fired right up. It was PIG rich, and undrivable, but it would idle. Phil's map was much better, although for my car (frankenstein that it is) I needed to do some work on it.

If it cranks and cranks and cranks... and you're not getting any kind of indication that the car is turning over at all (misfire or otherwise), I'd say you are lean. Rich, normally you'll get a stumbling idle, or at least trying to catch. Try adding some fuel (mabye 1ms of fuel) in the 0,400, and 800rpm zones, in the 160mm to 385mm vacuum zones.
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Old 08-17-2004, 08:08 PM   #328
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Thats really not a fair statement Darth... When I purchased my Hydra it wasn't even mentioned on this board (as far as vendors go). I remember back then it was this BIG top secret thing that World had to keep underwraps because it was such a big deal...

I put my down payment down before Element even came out that they were exclusive. This is a community... But I guess I should stop helping people too... maybe I can benefit out of it too.

But to be really honest, the veils behind the hydra are starting to piss me off. its an EMS, simple and plain. There are no magic buttons or easter eggs that you need to find in the system... As far as I'm concerned this EMS is not fit for consumption at this moment... Why... ? one reason. Support... We ain't getting any and Andrew has been a great help but it won't last forever as he is/going to be busy with ALL functions and updates for ALL dealers. I'm VERY surprised that a subaru vendor has said nothing. I don't mean to phone us up or let us email him every day, but sheesh... a word here and there would be great. I will recommend that anyone that wants to get this ECU serious consider the single fact that support is still very limited by a new vendor. To sell more hydras phil should be happy to lend his expertise to all new hydra buyers... why...? look at the post view count on this thread... how many people have considered a hydra based on my posts? I would say quite a few. but if you don't have support... look somewhere else... because its important... very important...

Not happy.
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Old 08-17-2004, 10:27 PM   #329
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I agree 10000%

i am happy with the EMS and the software, it seems to be easy to use, i like the display, and i like the functions the EMS offers... BUT NO ONE CAN HELP ME! and that is REALLY starting to piss me off... i mean, i understand its new... but the ONLY people i can get help from are Andrew, Dan from Godspeed... and HOK... I haven't heard ANYTHING from phil at Element... i didnt even know they were selling/supporting them... And i was along with HOK, i sent my money a few months after it became available for purchase.... and then patiently waited MONTHS more to recieve the unit.. and have even MORE PATIENTLY waited MONTHS more... to try to get it to run my damn car... and STILL no one can figure out what is going on...

i KNOW its not my car, because it will start on the stock ecu even with the WRX fuel pump and injectors flooding the **** out the engine... but as soon as i plug in the Hydra... i get nothing...

and what really confuses me.. is andrew tested the harness, its ok... plugged the unit into his car.. and it runs... so whats going on here? He said he would refund my money, but thats besides the point... i bought the Hydra, because i wanted the Hydra... (even though i should have went for the LINK...)

oh well.. i guess thats my little rant...

he said he flashed the EMS with the newest upgrade.. which in return requires new software.. which hes also sending... so we'll have to wait and see if anything changes...

if it starts, i have a feeling that he swapped me a new EMS, or a new harness.. and just said it was all good so he wouldnt look bad.. but i guess no one will ever know... and i wouldnt care.. as long as the car starts!

All and all.. andrew has been a great help, and has been very patient with my situation (although, he never did admit that the Hydra blew my... and others... coils.. he refuses to believe it.. oh well). He paid for me to next day air it to him when we figured out it was the EMS... and he paid for it to get shipped back out to me again... and he said that if it still doesnt work.. he'll pay for the shipping BACK to him.. and give me a full refund... That at least makes me happy..

In the end.. i hope the Hydra starts my car...

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Old 08-17-2004, 11:02 PM   #330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthChicken
So, you guys went around him, bought a unit, can't get it to work, and expect his help?

Seriously though... my car started right up, with the default map. I didn't even turn my laptop on, it just fired right up. It was PIG rich, and undrivable, but it would idle. Phil's map was much better, although for my car (frankenstein that it is) I needed to do some work on it.

If it cranks and cranks and cranks... and you're not getting any kind of indication that the car is turning over at all (misfire or otherwise), I'd say you are lean. Rich, normally you'll get a stumbling idle, or at least trying to catch. Try adding some fuel (mabye 1ms of fuel) in the 0,400, and 800rpm zones, in the 160mm to 385mm vacuum zones.

Ya it's true I never bough tit from him, I never knew he was a vendor. But to be honest I have posted more help on this thread than him and me a a couple fo friends figured this system out. All I am saying is it would be nice of him to help other ppl out once in a while if its an obvious solution and not to go around totally out of his way to help everyone. At this point I think there are maybe a couple others aside from Me and Hok who are tuned and running by our own efforts
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Old 08-17-2004, 11:06 PM   #331
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Ya, It would be nice, but I know if I was Phil I wouldnt be helping out. He has got to be insanely busy right now with the back orders and problems and just over all nightmare of running an aftermarket shop thies days. To help people out would be done in the little to no spare time that exists.
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Old 08-17-2004, 11:36 PM   #332
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I'd say Phil's in a tight spot. He wants to sell his units. It's a business. But greed is not the issue that I think keeps Phil off of the Hydra threads. I looked at Motec too, but decided against it because there was no support for it in a Subaru. Motec is very similar in function, but it does not come with any pre-installed maps. I'm not ready for that level of responsibility, and responsibiltiy is the issue for Phil. He can't take responsibility for units he didn't sell. Phil is taking some responsibility for my car, or at the very least I am entrusting him with my car. He's not ready to extend responsibility to HOK's (or other's RSs) car.

Hydra does not have any support to speak of and for that reason it has floundered. Motec/Haltech/etc has no support for Suby's but it does offer support in general for it's software and functionality. Their software is more sophisticated than the Hydra as well and so it cost more and the big buck racing teams use it. Unless a tuning guru steps up to map, program, and test Motec/Haltech, I won't touch them because I don't know enough (yet).

The Hydra has been around for a couple of years but went nowhere except with the MR2 crowd. Phil is not in the business of selling or supporting Hydras per say. Phil has made Hydra's accessable to Suby owners. He sells access to his creation that is based on the Hydra, but is more than just a Hydra, it's the Element Hydra.

I think that HOK is incredibly brave to have purchased the Hydra without any real proof that it would work in a Suby. I admire HOK's efforts/skill with the Hydra, but it was/is a very ambitious quest. I think in the long run he will benefit from the similar risks that Phil took by developing Suby maps for the Hydra, and the collective knowledge of our community.

I'm grateful that HOK has shared as much as he has with all of us, and I for one will share back when I get my Element Hydra. Sharing is the essence of these boards, but I don't expect vendors to support a product (in this case the product is the mapping and programming of the Element branded Hydra) that they do not have intimate knowledge of and confidence in.

It would seem Phil is not ready/too busy to sell Element Hydra's for the RS community. In time, I think he will, and the small number of early purchased, non-Element branded Hydra's will probably be supported under a grandfather clause, with future Hydra's used on Subys falling under Phil's exclusive contract. Phil is very generous, but for now, not ready to support what he has not yet mastered for himself.
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Old 08-18-2004, 12:09 AM   #333
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mmm I think you maybe right bboy... it may be more a point of learning about the ECU then sharing... If I was a tuner and did not know every thing in the box that I had to... then I would not post either... But if there was more visibility and tuning tips from Phil, especially in regards to the Hydra do you think that there would be more sales for him just based on participation and "support". I've always thought that users are what sell the product... not the vendor. especially with high performance products.

Without this support or at least a glimpse of what support is to come I just can't recommend this to people. But we also need documentation... any knowledge database or any updating of whats to come would be nice from any vendor.

But anyways I am ready to send out my excel spreadsheet mapper.. my buddy made the spreadsheet so that I could trace my log on the map cells and know what cells I hit during my runs. This is the third version. I will find webspace for all of you to download. It doesn't look like much and if you don't like it, just delete it. It was just a great tool for me when I was tuning. All it does is enable you to change the cells using excel so you can extrapolate and change a mass of cells. Instead of limited to the hydra software changes of one row or one cell. I still need to type up instructions.

For tweaking I used the hydra since the spreadsheet was not as useful for small changes.
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Old 08-18-2004, 12:13 AM   #334
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btw masiolli did those guys say your settings were all fine?

how about pre start up stuff like fuel pump priming and electricals were they all fine?

other then it being the maps its very confusing why it won't start.
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Old 08-18-2004, 02:09 AM   #335
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Nobody seemed to have caught my " " in my response.... sarcasm is such a lost art

Phil will help out where he can, when he can. I can guarantee it, I've known the man in passing for a number of years, and he WILL help when he can. I'm doing everything I can as well to learn the unit, so I can help folks out as well (as is HOK). As was said, its a VERY new unit to Subarus in general, and a lot of learning needs to be done. I'm trying out new things every day, new settings, trying to make the car run as smoothly and seamlessly as possible - thats the fun in these things.

Back to my point - add some fuel, I think you're running lean. Plugs are getting fouled in the stock ECU in 5 minutes - not in the hydra. Add some fuel, keep adding until you get to 4ms of fueling... if that doesn't work, then you went the wrong way
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Old 08-18-2004, 08:37 AM   #336
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DarthChicken:

Can you please e-mail me the software version you have? I have not received my Hydra yet, but I have been "playing" with the software as well. Maybe you can send a base map so I can familiarize with it as well?


HOK: If possible can you e-mail me the spreadsheet as well? Intrigued on how it works.

juliogsr@yahoo.com
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Old 08-18-2004, 10:41 AM   #337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthChicken
Nobody seemed to have caught my " " in my response.... sarcasm is such a lost art

Phil will help out where he can, when he can. I can guarantee it, I've known the man in passing for a number of years, and he WILL help when he can. I'm doing everything I can as well to learn the unit, so I can help folks out as well (as is HOK). As was said, its a VERY new unit to Subarus in general, and a lot of learning needs to be done. I'm trying out new things every day, new settings, trying to make the car run as smoothly and seamlessly as possible - thats the fun in these things.

Back to my point - add some fuel, I think you're running lean. Plugs are getting fouled in the stock ECU in 5 minutes - not in the hydra. Add some fuel, keep adding until you get to 4ms of fueling... if that doesn't work, then you went the wrong way
the easiest way to tell if you are cranking rich or lean is try cranking it then pull the plugs. If they are dripping, it's rich.
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Old 08-18-2004, 12:27 PM   #338
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The Hydra has not been available "for two years." It has been in development for about that long. Andrew blamed my car's harness, not his, over and over until I proved it to him. He built me a new harness and suddenly my mysterious problems went away. After that, it was just an issue of the ecu sucking big time. He also offered to give me my money back. When I tried to take him up on it, he dropped the amount he would pay for it saying it was used. Shadey.... Do a swap and get an Ecutech. I did. My car starts right up, idles, runs smoothly and effeciantly....
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Old 08-18-2004, 05:55 PM   #339
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SubaFastR - so far you're the exception. ECUtek reflash IMO will only get you so far, the MAF sensor was driving me up a wall. Inability to control throttle pump, inability to control hot start vs. cold start parameters, inability to control SO many things. The Hydra is not for everybody, but if you know how to use it, I find my car is running SMOOTHER with this than it did with my ECUTek reflash. And my ECUtek reflash was done by myself, over days of working on it.

Julio - the map that is in the software download you can get from the mrcontrols.com forumn is pretty good actually. Its a good "learning" map.

As for support - pick up the phone, and give him a call! EVERY time I've called him, he's either answered the phone, or called me back within the day. Just because he doesn't post here doesn't mean he's not available, call him!

(this forum is not the end all)
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Old 08-18-2004, 06:08 PM   #340
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Well, I've tried to warn as much as possible. I'm done with this ecu and thread. Have fun guys.
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Old 08-18-2004, 06:14 PM   #341
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suba... can you be more specific about the problems you had with the ECU itself when you got it up and running?
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Old 08-18-2004, 06:21 PM   #342
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Darth... thats my point... a few pages back people were telling me that support only extends to people that have bought the units from phil... thats fine.. I accept that... but the irony of this situation is that I'm probably phils greatest ally and yours Darth...
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Old 08-18-2004, 06:36 PM   #343
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If you bought a unit from Phil, you use Phil for support. If you bought one from Andrew, Andrew is your support. Those of us that know the units (HOK, myself, a few others) should help out wherever we can - however those of us that bought the units from Phil can only go so far (ie I can't give you my map for example, as thats Phil's intellectual property, which is what gives him the advantage, and he probably would never talk to me again if I gave his work away).

Subfastr's problems are exactly what Phil is going to be there for. Andrew is a great guy, but he's not a subaru guy. The default WRX map shows it too, its WAY off and doesn't follow normal subaru turbo tuning conventions at all. So, while Subfastr has had some problems, it just drives home the point that Phil is making distributing these things.

If you bought from Andrew, before Phil came along on this thing, I'd suggest giving Phil a call, and see what happens. He realizes that it's up to him AND the market to get the good word out on these things, otherwise there will be a handful of us users, and thats it.
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Old 08-18-2004, 09:20 PM   #344
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It Started!!!

i got the Hydra back today... got new plugs (again) and it fired right up... well it cranked for a while... but it fired up.. and it idles nice.. and it actually drives preatty smoothly...

i have to get excel on my laptop so i can log some data... i'll get back

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Old 08-18-2004, 09:31 PM   #345
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congratz! i've been playin with the maps and software all evening... fun stuff, it like playing with legos! lol
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Old 08-18-2004, 10:52 PM   #346
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well it ran for about a half hour.. then it burnt up another set of plugs

i used autolight.. they have a 3yr warrenty.. so i just keep excanging them... haha.. maybe i should try some better plugs.. then they wont burn up?

i think even with the hydra its running way way too rich

i logged the data.. but didnt have excel... i found my office disk.. installed it.. and went to go on a drive.. and thats when it stalled, and never started back up.. so i have to go get new plugs so i can get a log...

any suggestions? (to get it to not kill the plugs so often.. i have to get it to run for at least 4 hours.. so i can make it to GodSpeed in MI which is a 4 hour drive..)
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Old 08-18-2004, 11:07 PM   #347
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you could try a step or two of some hotter plugs... that might help keep them from getting so fouled up so quickly. id be more concerned about your rings if you're running that rich... a 4 hour drive to michigan could eat em up.
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Old 08-18-2004, 11:20 PM   #348
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bboy
I looked at Motec too, but decided against it because there was no support for it in a Subaru. Motec is very similar in function, but it does not come with any pre-installed maps.
OT, but I wanted to clarify your statements about Motec support. Crawford Performance is a Motec dealer specializing in Subarus. Motec also makes a p-n-p M800 variant that's compatible with the V7 WRX, complete with base map.
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Old 08-18-2004, 11:50 PM   #349
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so a FYI guys I got EVRYTHING working now (with the help of imprezakid)even the Hydra based boost in 2.5 weeks. even with having harness wideband and timing setting issues ^^
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Old 08-19-2004, 01:16 AM   #350
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STi_Drift
so a FYI guys I got EVRYTHING working now (with the help of imprezakid)even the Hydra based boost in 2.5 weeks. even with having harness wideband and timing setting issues ^^
good!

Now fix mine!
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