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Old 04-21-2004, 07:32 AM   #1
Scooby Freak
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Default STX vs. DS

I keep considering moving to STX, because of all of the fun things you can do to the car, but I'm confused.

Is your STX prepped car faster than your DS prepped car? I know you can get 10 - 20% more power, get a fully adjustable suspension w/ any spring rate you want, but are limited to street tires.

The reason I ask is because the PAX for the two classes are so close.

DS - 0.794
STX - 0.795

In other words which class am I more likely to win PAX in?

-jeff
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Old 04-21-2004, 07:46 AM   #2
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I think the STX PAX is quite generous (oops, meant to say "very fair" ) this year. It got a bit easier than last year, while STS (which was often a strong candidate to win) got harder. And IMHO the WRX is more competitive in STX than DS. So STX would be my choice.

Looking at the other angle: Especially on a nice sunny day on concrete, top DS cars are very fast on their Hoosiers! It will be difficult for any car on street tires to keep up.
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Old 04-21-2004, 11:06 AM   #3
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Quote:
And IMHO the WRX is more competitive in STX than DS.
Although the PAXs are so close, IMHO the DS PAX is based on cars that are faster than the WRX. The STX PAX is probably more WRX friendly, but, to get a WRX up to the point where it can fully exploit the STX PAX is going to be a lot of work and money. Plus, can you really use a full STX car as a daily driver?

Just based on other's results (definetly not mine!) you are probably going to have more potential for winning class at big events in STX than DS.

Personnaly, I wish you'd stay in DS so I can see what a good driver can do with the "stock" car!

Andy.
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Old 04-21-2004, 12:03 PM   #4
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There are a few things about STX that are very appealing.

Rear Swaybar and Full exhaust minus two catalytic converters would be very streetable. I'm sure the high spring rates would wear you down if you used them everyday, but the engineer in me wants to tinker with more than just air pressures. I already have the wheels & tires for STX, which I've been using everyday. I wouldn't have to swap wheels twice at each event I raced at.

On the other hand, I like DS, because I have eliminated most variables and have been able to focus on improving my driving. And R-compounds are a blast!

I won't be switching this season, unless my hoosiers wear out too quickly.

-jeff
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Old 04-21-2004, 12:09 PM   #5
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I point the nod to STX.

I think an STX car with street tires will be much faster then a DS car. Its all in the suspension setup. Plus, we can probably put down about 50whp more then stock.

Speaking of PAX, the STX pax is kind of weak this year, so expect it to go up next season......

-Tom
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Old 04-21-2004, 12:24 PM   #6
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Quote:
but the engineer in me wants to tinker with more than just air pressures
I know what you mean. I got all excited doing my DS prep, then I realized that was the end of the road for car mods and it seemed a shame!

I wonder if anyone's tried the Praxiss air suspension in STX? I read a good review of it as an HPDE type setup and being able to switch so quickly from a stock ride to a "race" setting seemed like a cool idea.
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Old 04-21-2004, 12:35 PM   #7
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Jeff,

I think whenever you run in the south Jersey region, you should stay in STX. I won't look as slow in DS

Mike (silver WRX w/ Yakima rack you met @ Atco on 4/4)
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Old 04-21-2004, 12:45 PM   #8
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*much* faster?

I vote a little faster =)

but lets look at the times, what are the top DS vs STX times so far this year at national tours and pros? (dont count houston since rain will mess up the results)


Quote:
Originally posted by trhoppe
I point the nod to STX.

I think an STX car with street tires will be much faster then a DS car. Its all in the suspension setup. Plus, we can probably put down about 50whp more then stock.

Speaking of PAX, the STX pax is kind of weak this year, so expect it to go up next season......

-Tom
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Old 04-21-2004, 12:53 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by jmott
*much* faster?

I vote a little faster =)

but lets look at the times, what are the top DS vs STX times so far this year at national tours and pros? (dont count houston since rain will mess up the results)
if they actually had results on the newly redesigned SCCA website.
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Old 04-21-2004, 01:00 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by leecea
I wonder if anyone's tried the Praxiss air suspension in STX? I read a good review of it as an HPDE type setup and being able to switch so quickly from a stock ride to a "race" setting seemed like a cool idea.
Not leagl in STX or SP.

SM or Prepared/Mod due to the change of the 'type' of suspension from Coil over strut to airbag.

--kC
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Old 04-21-2004, 01:02 PM   #11
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If memory serves me right:

Houston: rain
Cali: No WRXs
Ft Meyers: STX WRX beat DS. (Mike King)

--kC
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Old 04-21-2004, 01:09 PM   #12
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I think the big difference between the groups is the way the PAX score is calculated. The DS PAX has the use of R tires already built in and so is faster then what a DS with onlystreet tires would be. So it's a balance between the two classes with STX have more power and handling on street tires, while DS has the R advantage. Neither's better then the other, they are just differently prepped cars.

I would chose where you want to run from a budget, other motorsport, and comfort level evaluation. Remember r tires are expensive and wear out quickly, so DS might not be the cheapest class in the long run.
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Old 04-21-2004, 01:27 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by rsotak
I think the big difference between the groups is the way the PAX score is calculated. The DS PAX has the use of R tires already built in and so is faster then what a DS with onlystreet tires would be. So it's a balance between the two classes with STX have more power and handling on street tires, while DS has the R advantage. Neither's better then the other, they are just differently prepped cars.
One is better than the other. The PAX number is supposed to reflect that. The lower the PAX, the 'easier' the class. If the numbers were the same, then they should be running the same times at the events that are used to calculate the PAX for the year. It's an index to 'guess' what THIS YEARS times are going to be based on LAST YEARS results from various events (that are kept secret by the guy that came up with the factor)

Quote:
Originally posted by rsotak
Remember r tires are expensive and wear out quickly, so DS might not be the cheapest class in the long run.
I would disagree to a point. Running locally, stock can be cheaper than STX. There's a limit to what can be done in stock, for the beginning. In the long run, it's a tough call... there hasn't been a long run for STX yet to compare it to.

But year one saw me put close to $5K in parts and labor.
Last year was about $3.5K
This year? Maybe $500 to $1K for tires as I think that the car is just where I want it to be.

Until you get to where you feel good in the car, you'll always be spending $$ no matter what you drive.

--kC
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Old 04-21-2004, 03:30 PM   #14
rsotak
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In reading hte post my point wasn't exatly clear. My point is that the reason they are as close as they are (.791 vs .794) is because of the use of the r rated tires in DS, not that he actual method to calculate the PAX is different.

As for being cheaper in DS vs STX...it all depends on how competative you want to be within the STX class. I agree that it can run thousands of dollars in order to go for 1st, but one could also run locally and be very competative with a near stock set-up and driving skill.
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Old 04-21-2004, 03:48 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by rsotak
In reading hte post my point wasn't exatly clear. My point is that the reason they are as close as they are (.791 vs .794) is because of the use of the r rated tires in DS, not that he actual method to calculate the PAX is different.
But that's the thing... DS has an easier pax than STX. So theoreticaly, STX should be faster than DS. DS PAX is made up of the fast cars of the class... which really aren't WRXs, it's Type-Rs, 300cis and IS300s. WRXs are sort of at the middle-upper part of the DS equasion I would beleive, whereas it's mostly WRXs at the top of STX.

So if there's any doubt... STX is the way to go if PAX is what you're after. Sure PAX is harder, but a fully prepped DS WRX vs a Mostly Prepped STX WRX, I'd pick the WRX hands down. (And an STX WRX Wagon at that)

--KC
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Old 04-21-2004, 04:32 PM   #16
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Regionally I think STX is a touch faster. When I had fresh Hoosiers my (otherwise stock, no shocks or front bar) times were always just a touch behind Tom's. It didn't help that I had a serious case of cone-itis last season...

But like KC says, DS is a tough class and nationally the 330Ci and Type-R are hard to beat. Nationally I think DS is as even as it gets with STX.

--Kevin H.
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Old 04-21-2004, 05:01 PM   #17
rsotak
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Unless the link I'm looking at is wrong, it has DS at .794 and STX at .791. I'm not an expert by any means, but don't you take you raw time and multiply it by the PAX factor. That would mean that the lower the PAX factor the lower the "normallized" time?

I agree that the cars in STX seem more evenly matched with the WRX once you factor in the possible mods...I finally see your point.
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Old 04-21-2004, 05:32 PM   #18
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The link you're looking at is wrong.

This is the PAX that most regions use: http://www.scca-chicago.com/solo/indexes/rtp2004.html Regions can, however, adopt their own PAX for classes.

For the most part....
DS is .794
STX is .795

So STX is still tough... but only a tad.

In 2003, DS was .795 and STX was .798. Which means on a 60 second course, STX had to be .18 seconds faster to beat DS in pax.

So for now, they are very close, with STX still tougher/higher pax, which means that STX only has to be .03 seconds faster on a 60 second course (yes, almost equal). The lower the number, the easier the PAX.

Example... if it took everyone 60 Seconds to get around a course.
AM: PAX 1.00 x 60 = 60
STS: PAX .791 x 60 = 47.46
DS: PAX .794 x 60 = 47.67
STX: PAX .795 x 60 = 47.70

So I'd still give the nod to STX as being faster.
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Old 04-21-2004, 07:23 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by KC
If memory serves me right:

Houston: rain
Cali: No WRXs
Ft Meyers: STX WRX beat DS. (Mike King)

--kC
It did rain in Houston but only during 1 heat. I know stx got dry runs I though DS ran before STX?
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Old 04-22-2004, 01:24 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by leecea
Plus, can you really use a full STX car as a daily driver?
Sure! I drive mine every day, it's the only car I have. I have gone up to 1200 miles (one way) for events, and my car has never seen a trailer.
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Old 04-22-2004, 07:08 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by TheWRX
I drive mine every day
How about the rest? Do you ride on those crazy spring rates every day? I think the springs would be the only tough part about the daily driver comfort.

-jeff
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Old 04-22-2004, 07:38 AM   #22
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I just drove in mine for a week, with all my tools and stuff in the hatch... fully loaded. It's be better if I took the tools out... I'd drive it *if* I didn't already have a daily driver. (96 Cherokee).

But no problems. A good deal also depends on the valving of the struts, if they can keep up with the springs. If you get a well matched set, then the ride is only much more firm, but not tough.

(And a comfy seat helps too)

--kC
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Old 04-22-2004, 07:54 AM   #23
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Default Re: STX vs. DS

Quote:
Originally posted by Scooby Freak


In other words which class am I more likely to win PAX in?

-jeff
So now you want to WIN PAX in Philly Region huh

I think STX will be your best bet with the lots that we have, although a good driver could win in either of those classes.

Corey #89 STS
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Old 04-22-2004, 08:21 AM   #24
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seems philly region mentioned anywhere draws us to it there corey

It's too bad you're not doing any BOING! events this year. Suprised at that really since you pushed so hard to get 3 allowed drops.

Anyway, back on topic. I agree with most all of you above in that the WRX doesn't really shine until it's in a good STX trim/setup.
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Old 04-22-2004, 09:00 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by trojan9x
seems philly region mentioned anywhere draws us to it there corey

It's too bad you're not doing any BOING! events this year. Suprised at that really since you pushed so hard to get 3 allowed drops.
I didn't push for 3 drops for me... I did it out of principle. No need to penalize someone for attending National evetns. I took myself out of the running for anything in Philly anyway.

Now back to your regularly scheduled DS vs. STX discussion.

Corey #89 STS
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