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Old 07-26-2000, 07:02 PM   #1
Patrick Olsen
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Question Suggestions to correct inside front tire spin at auto-x?

I've noticed at just about every auto-x I go to that on the really tight corners I'll spin the inside front tire. I honestly don't remember if this happened on street tires, but it's definitely happening with my Kumhos. Perhaps with the extra grip, the car is rolling more, unloading the front tire too much. Anyway, it makes the steering kinda vague coming off the corner, and obviously isn't the fast way out of a corner.

As of now the suspension is stock with the exception of an 18mm rear sway bar (this is on a Legacy) and a front strut tower brace. I'm pretty sure the way to keep that inside tire planted is to put in a bigger front sway bar, and I know those are available in the aftermarket. What I'm unsure of is how that bigger sway bar will affect the overall handling of the car. A bigger front sway bar means more understeer, so will the bigger front wipe out the benefits of my 18mm rear bar? If I then upgrade to a bigger rear bar (let's say Whiteline's 20-24mm adjustable), does that then wipe out the benefits of the bigger front bar? I guess that's kind of a stupid question, but I don't want this to develop into a vicious circle of bigger front, bigger rear, ooops now I need an even bigger front, oh wait now I need more in the rear.....

Has anybody else experienced the inside tire spin problem? Perhaps the smaller Impreza is not susceptible to this. Actually, KC, who I auto-x'd with this past weekend, lifts his inside REAR tire, not the front, so it appears the Legacy and Impreza are different in that respect.

Anyway, any advice you could give me would be greatly appreciated.

Edit: I wonder if an anti-lift kit would help to minimize this problem. Any thoughts on that?

Pat Olsen
'99 Legacy 2.5GT 5speed sedan

[This message has been edited by Patrick Olsen (edited July 26, 2000).]
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Old 07-26-2000, 07:08 PM   #2
Mike Moffa
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Hi Pat, I had the same problem with my RS with the stock suspension last year.. I did not race this year.( the car have been in the garage all summer dammit)

Last year mods that I was having was 20mm sway bar and a front strut bar.. Stock RE92 was going that, and also my Toyo T1-S.
Maybe one thing that can help between changing all the suspension is Anti-Lift kit by whiteline. but now, I dont know if they fit the legacy..

This is my little suggestion .. let heard other opinion ???
Maybe after I get my car back, I will be able to help you more, because, I did more mods on it (a lot) but did not have the chance to go test them yet.. grrrrrr
hehe

take care
Mike
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Old 07-26-2000, 07:41 PM   #3
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Yeah, I wonder how the STi cars deal with this if our lowly US-spec cars can so easily spin the front tire when exiting corners.
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Old 07-26-2000, 08:57 PM   #4
Patrick Olsen
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As far as I can tell the anti-lift kit will fit any Subaru. I've looked under my car, Imprezas, Outbacks, no Forester yet - they all appear to have the exact same front control arms and the exact same mounting brackets.

I'm going to talk to a Teague's, Rallispec, etc, see what some of the tuners have to say.

Keep them ideas coming.

Pat Olsen
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Old 07-26-2000, 10:32 PM   #5
PeterPan
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Read the present issue of scc, it will bring some light to your situation, that is if the drive train is the same on a 99 legacy as it is on the 99 rs.
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Old 07-26-2000, 10:49 PM   #6
kelley nelson
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I have heard that the STi cars actually have some kind of anti-lift measure that the other cars do not.
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Old 07-27-2000, 12:05 AM   #7
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Cool

The easiest solution is to move the "trunk monkey" to the the front...

Larry

PS: make sure you leave the hood scoop open for him, to avoid heat stroke!
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Old 07-27-2000, 06:31 AM   #8
Travis R
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It actually seems to me that a larger front sway bar would actually make it worse. The inside tire spins because it doesn't have enough load on it, and it has been discussed a lot that sway bars reduce the load on the inside tires (while increasing it on the outside tires). What you actually need are stiffer springs. Springs will not only decrease the body roll, but they will also not take away from the inside tire in a turn.
If your larger sway bar theory were correct then it would also stand to reason that I need a larger sway bar in the rear of my RS. I lift the inside rear wheel while braking into a turn (I have the 20mm bar). If I put on an even larger bar, sure my car might roll less, but there would also be more pull on the inside tire (from the stiffer bar).
Good luck
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Old 07-27-2000, 06:56 AM   #9
ColinL
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How about feeding in the gas more slowly instead of going right to WOT?

I like Travis' answer about springs myself. A stiffer front bar would actually help but would bring about other undesirable handling traits, like more understeer.

More front camber would be good too.

Time for coilovers I guess!
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Old 07-27-2000, 07:14 AM   #10
8Complex

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Front tire? Hell I pull my inside rear tire up off the ground 4-6" almost every turn at the autocrosses. Which of course spins like hell, but it's not too bad since I've got LSD in the rear (MY00).

To correct the problem is simple. Get stiffer springs. It won't allow the car to all load to the one corner and pull up that front inside (if you're sure thats what it's doing).
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Old 07-27-2000, 07:26 AM   #11
crxrocks
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Wouldn't replacing the open front diff. w/ a LSD also solve this problem? May be costly, but it is an option.


Chris
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Old 07-27-2000, 08:00 AM   #12
ColinL
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Yeah, putting in quaife differentials front and rear would be great for autocross. But that's a long road away from suspension upgrades, not to mention you're at least in Street Prepared or Street Mod -- neither is friendly.
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Old 07-27-2000, 08:29 AM   #13
Gary (gg)
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I say live with it. That means your driving the car hard. But seriously, as Colin suggested, feed the gas slowly because if your spinning the front inside tire the car should be understeering.
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Old 07-27-2000, 06:38 PM   #14
Pilot
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Holy cow! I have been getting an error message on this thread for three days!

Anyway, Patrick I am mistaken or do you have an automatic? If so that drivetrain pushes 90 percent of the power to the front wheels and then as they spin , moves the power back. In my experience it does this more slowly than the VC in the manual tranny cars. This may be part of your problem, I know I have this problem in my old man's SVX when I flog it hard around tight corners.

To remedy you can either change your driving style, fit a front limited slip or (my preference) increase the spring rates all teh way around. Say 350# in the front and maybe 275# in the rear? You will definetly need new shocks for those though.
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Old 07-27-2000, 07:13 PM   #15
Patrick Olsen
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Pilot!! How dare you insinuate that I drive an automatic!! Bah!!

Nope, all stick here (hence the signature that says "5speed sedan", by the way ).

So stiffer springs, eh? Hmmm, I think I'd prefer the coil-overs that somebody suggested. I don't really want to lower the car/stiffen the ride too much, so coil-overs would give me some adjustability. Soft and high for the street (and my occasional muddin' ), firm and low for auto-x/open track.

I think Colin has a good point about taking it a bit easier on the throttle. I'm very much an ON/OFF kind of guy when I'm driving hard - it was one of the things my instructor pointed out during my first OT event, and I don't think I've gotten much better at modulating. I think in particular in the tight confines of the auto-x I feel like if I'm not on the gas I'm losing time. Need to work on that.

As for the coil-overs, they're gonna have to wait for a bit - maybe next summer. Right now I'm spending all my money on my other car , so the Subaru has to wait. I may go ahead and do the anti-lift kit now to see if that helps any. The other problem with trying to do coil-overs now is that there seems to be very little knowledge of what combinations work well with the Legacy. I'll probably have to do some looking overseas to see what they run, since most everyone on the board is an Impreza owner.

Pat Olsen
'99 Legacy 2.5GT 5speed sedan
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Old 07-27-2000, 10:43 PM   #16
jeffvanstone
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My instincts tell me that you are on the right track with the stiffer springs, but a stiffer REAR bar should actually decrease it. It'll help keep the rear of the level, and the inside front will be forced to stay down. It's not the best way of fixing it, but maybe the cheapest.
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Old 07-28-2000, 06:40 AM   #17
ColinL
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Going from my stock 13mm bar to a whiteline 20mm bar didn't seriously affect my front tire spin. I know that more weight is being kept on the front tires, but it seriously didn't make a real difference.

Pat, the way I deal with it is to drive hard the first time and if I get wheelspin, ease into the throttle more. I'm not very smooth either, my other local scooby buddies Gary (gg) and Fstrmnky are much smoother.
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Old 07-28-2000, 11:16 PM   #18
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Patrick.....The Legacy and the Impreza are both constructed on the same chassis and susp basis. Behavior on the road of both models should be very similar EXCEPT for the extra weight of the Legacy.That is in my opinion the main reason for over spining the front wheel. Checking the answers you got I would recomend:
1.... NO bigger front bar. It will definitly make the inside wheel lighter under load
2... Get the antilift kit. It changes the front susp geometry giving more positive caster which also provides more dinamic negative camber resulting in improved traction and better front pointing.
3... Run a little toe out (1/8). This helps the inside wheel to achieve a better circle pattern (like Ackerman steereing).
4.. Heavier springs all around will also help , if you want to make that investment.

KIKOS
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Old 07-29-2000, 12:16 AM   #19
8Complex

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If you want to stop your inside front tire from coming off the ground, you need to stiffen up the outside rear spring (or with a sway bar back there). If you've got enough power to lift it when coming out of a corner, 1. you're probably taking the corner wrong (carry your speed through more), or 2. you should have a suspension on the car already.

One of the things that you should also note is that when you take a corner like that and lift the inside front tire, take note of whether you put in the clutch and let it out to get it to do it or if you just romped on the gas and did it. You shouldn't be taking it ouf of gear around corners, it unbalances the car (I haven't figured it out yet, but it helps staying in gear). Just remember that if you're about to spin, push that clutch in fast, though don't be afraid to drift.

BTW, sorry if you know this all already, just the first thing that came to my mind when re-reading this thread.
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Old 07-29-2000, 12:17 AM   #20
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Geez, you guys are too serious.

Not one positive comment on my ingenious trunk monkey solution...
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