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Old 04-27-2004, 03:09 PM   #1
Xybermage
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Default Are ceramic headers worth the $$$?

I know that ceramic coated headers dramatically reduce under the hood temperatures, but is it actually worth the extra money? Borla headers can be found for less than $300, but are not ceramic coated. Ceramic coated headers are running between $600-700. Some say get the borla and then wrap them in a heat sheilding material. I want to get a group consensus. Should I spend the extra money on the ceramic headers???

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Old 04-27-2004, 03:39 PM   #2
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i say just wrap them...especially cheap borlas - it was easy and if u paint them (the wrap) should be pretty clean and safe
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Old 04-27-2004, 04:40 PM   #3
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what kindof headers are you referring to for 600-700 ceramic coated?

if their equal length, then yes they are definitly worth it over the borlas
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Old 04-27-2004, 06:47 PM   #4
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You can send Borlas in to be coated as well, any ceramic coating CO such as Jet Hot will do this no problem. Not sure how much it will cost though. As has also been mentioned, wrapping and then spraying the wrapped headers will work pretty well.

What you really need to be deciding on is unequal or equal length. Unequal is cheaper and produces less power, than the more powerful expensive equal length counterparts.
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Old 04-27-2004, 08:01 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by Compressed
You can send Borlas in to be coated as well, any ceramic coating CO such as Jet Hot will do this no problem. Not sure how much it will cost though. As has also been mentioned, wrapping and then spraying the wrapped headers will work pretty well.

What you really need to be deciding on is unequal or equal length. Unequal is cheaper and produces less power, than the more powerful expensive equal length counterparts.

But unequal length generally give a more deep, mean, sounding exhaust while the equal length have more of a ricer sound.
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Old 04-27-2004, 10:45 PM   #6
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yeah, but in the quest for power, equal length just have to much of an advantage to offer, look at the cobb combo since those are the only ones with solid dyno's compared to borlas, theres midrange gains that borla's can't even compare to even matched with a random tech cat
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Old 04-27-2004, 10:45 PM   #7
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what kind of power gain differences are we talking between equal and unequal lenght. Are we talking 1-2 hp or 10-20 for 1-2 it's not worth it for me. If anyone knows how much it would cost to ceramic coat the borlas that would be great, or possibly who I could talk to.

Jeremy
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Old 04-27-2004, 10:57 PM   #8
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i'm curious about this also.. chicago right here! so not to far from u.. im bout to put my headers on and was wondering if i needed to do the same and where could i do it at? i'll try to post up a picture had to resize it... i got hks headers
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Old 04-27-2004, 11:14 PM   #9
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my hks headers...
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Old 04-27-2004, 11:32 PM   #10
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GARBAGE
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jk nice
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Old 04-28-2004, 12:17 AM   #11
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If you're getting the Cobb headers, I HIGHLY recommend ordering them Ceramic coated. Two main reasons, the piping is thin and they're made of mild steel. And the last thing you want is your $600 headers getting rusted and corroded. Also I disagree with wrapping the borla headers. By doing that, you're retaining heat, moisture, dirt, etc. Keep those puppies clean!
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Old 04-28-2004, 02:02 AM   #12
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not such a huge difference up at high rpm, but keep in mind this dyno was done at 4500 ft, comparing another dyno they had to their stage 2 dyno with the same setup at sea level, past 5000 rpm the car has trouble breathing



Stage 1 Peaks: 126 HP @ 5400 RPM
(Stock Header) 141 ft-lbs @ 4000 RPM

COBB Header: 134.1 HP @ 5400 RPM (+8.1 HP)
158 ft-lbs @ 4000 RPM (+17 ft-lbs)

For comparison purposes we dyno tested the latest generation Borla header with the Random Tech cat using their newest high-flowing Metallic Substrate cat. Measured between 2000 RPM to 6000 RPM, sampling every 100 RPM, the COBB header setup produced +9.4 HP on average and +12.7 ft-lbs of torque on average. The Borla/Random combo produced only +5.5HP on average and +6.9 ft-lbs of torque on average. This represents a 71% higher average HP gain and an 84% higher average torque gain with the COBB header compared to the Borla/Random combo.

The highest gains recorded with our header were +14.7 HP and +17.5 ft-lbs torque. Nowhere in the power band did we find a reduction in performance. In fact, low-end torque was significantly improved. At 2000 RPM, our header is making +16 ft-lbs of torque compared to stock. FWIW, the Borla/Random combo produces +1.9 ft-lbs at 2000 RPM. In fact, from 2000-4000 RPM, our header showed an average torque increase of +13.5 ft-lbs whereas the Borla/Random combo showed an average torque increase of +6.5 ft-lbs. This represents a 107% higher average torque with our header compared to the Borla/Random combo in the portion of the powerband we use the most.
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Old 04-28-2004, 02:10 AM   #13
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any suggestions on wat i should do with my hks headers??
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Old 04-28-2004, 08:44 AM   #14
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put them on your "sti turbo"



















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Old 04-28-2004, 12:50 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by ttboy19
Also I disagree with wrapping the borla headers. By doing that, you're retaining heat, moisture, dirt, etc. Keep those puppies clean!
Well the whole point of wrapping exhaust manifolds is just that dude... retaining heat, keeping exhaust velocity up. The only downside of wrapping as opposed to coating is that you do retain heat (dirt I doubt if you went through the process correctly)... yes moisture so you may have to rewrap in a few years but it's a great cost effective way if you don't want to spend the crazy $$$ on coating.
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Old 04-28-2004, 02:15 PM   #16
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I have Gruppe-S V2 with jet-hot coat and was thinking about wrapping it until I saw this page.

http://www.centuryperformance.com/heatwraps.asp

I've heard about adverse effects of wrapping headers but people seem to do it anyway.
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Old 04-28-2004, 02:40 PM   #17
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good read, coating is definitly the way to go though, for all the reasons listed on that page, plus the fact thats its just better at retaining the heat then wrapping
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Old 04-28-2004, 03:58 PM   #18
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so should i coat my hks exhaust manifold?? and where can i do it at in chicago??
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Old 04-28-2004, 04:10 PM   #19
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Where did you get your HKS and how much? I am also interested in where I might be able to get a set of headers coated.

Jeremy
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Old 04-28-2004, 05:10 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dougeefresh
I have Gruppe-S V2 with jet-hot coat and was thinking about wrapping it until I saw this page.

http://www.centuryperformance.com/heatwraps.asp

I've heard about adverse effects of wrapping headers but people seem to do it anyway.
borla warranties header wrap, and has even sent out header wrap to someone with a CEL

borlas are SS as well..so rust is not a big issue.

if that website was 100% accurate wouldnt we
A) see more header failures
B) how would ceramic coatins be better...

Quote:
The EGTs stay the same but the properties of the header material changes in a way of amplifying the temperatures because of the insulation. This action goes against normal laws of thermal dynamics, but this effect is fact, and you have to pull the ears off most engineers before they believe you. This is the trouble with plenty of education, but NO "common sense"!
yah i dont believe....i guess im an engineer as well.

its laws of 'thermodynamics'


http://www.thermotec.com/products/full/11001/11001.html

"Thermo-Tec exhaust wrap will not over-insulate a system when properly installed due to a proprietary coating developed by Thermo-Tec - Thermal Conduction Technology (TCT) - that conducts heat across the wrap's surface. This coating controls heat build-up and dissipation."
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Old 04-28-2004, 06:34 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Xybermage
Where did you get your HKS and how much? I am also interested in where I might be able to get a set of headers coated.

Jeremy
i got a good deal on it jeremy. it cost $1160 but this guy sold it to me for about 700 cause he had a extra one.. he was sponsor by hks.. hopefully i'll see u jeremy at one of the meets.. see each others cars
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Old 04-28-2004, 08:33 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by nySulli
not such a huge difference up at high rpm, but keep in mind this dyno was done at 4500 ft, comparing another dyno they had to their stage 2 dyno with the same setup at sea level, past 5000 rpm the car has trouble breathing



Stage 1 Peaks: 126 HP @ 5400 RPM
(Stock Header) 141 ft-lbs @ 4000 RPM

COBB Header: 134.1 HP @ 5400 RPM (+8.1 HP)
158 ft-lbs @ 4000 RPM (+17 ft-lbs)

For comparison purposes we dyno tested the latest generation Borla header with the Random Tech cat using their newest high-flowing Metallic Substrate cat. Measured between 2000 RPM to 6000 RPM, sampling every 100 RPM, the COBB header setup produced +9.4 HP on average and +12.7 ft-lbs of torque on average. The Borla/Random combo produced only +5.5HP on average and +6.9 ft-lbs of torque on average. This represents a 71% higher average HP gain and an 84% higher average torque gain with the COBB header compared to the Borla/Random combo.

The highest gains recorded with our header were +14.7 HP and +17.5 ft-lbs torque. Nowhere in the power band did we find a reduction in performance. In fact, low-end torque was significantly improved. At 2000 RPM, our header is making +16 ft-lbs of torque compared to stock. FWIW, the Borla/Random combo produces +1.9 ft-lbs at 2000 RPM. In fact, from 2000-4000 RPM, our header showed an average torque increase of +13.5 ft-lbs whereas the Borla/Random combo showed an average torque increase of +6.5 ft-lbs. This represents a 107% higher average torque with our header compared to the Borla/Random combo in the portion of the powerband we use the most.

You know what....I'd like to see someone take a Cobb header, random tech cat, and whatever 2.25" catback up against the MRT header back system.

I'd like to see that because teh Cobb header is supposed to put out 9hp & 12 tq more than stock but the MRT system puts out 14-16hp/tq total.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...light=mrt+dyno
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Old 04-28-2004, 09:12 PM   #23
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well their designed totally differently

yeah, you get 16 hp gains from the mrt, but i'd like to see the cobbs at sea level, i'm sure you'd see more like a 10-12 hp gain

also from dyno's i've seen the mrt's don't make any power below 4000 rpm, which is where cobbs power really is, 16 ftlb gain at 2000 rpm which keeps going all the way to 4500 rpm, so it just really depends on what your going after, total high end or whatever, personally i would have loved cobb to design those headers to bump the powerband 500 rpm higher then they made it, but thats just me, cause i'm sure they could have done that without losing to much at 2000 rpm, which i wouldn't really be concerned about anyways, i'm more looking for 3000-5500 rpm gains
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Old 04-29-2004, 12:00 AM   #24
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Maybe soon I'll have up dyno results for the cobb headers.
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