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Old 04-28-2004, 04:25 PM   #1
MRF582
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Default Ladies class...why?

First of all, I don't mean to flame. I'm trying to learn something here. Why does Solo II have ladies classes? is the PAX for the ladies classer easier than the PAX for the men's version of that class? like DSL vs DS?

if the PAX for the ladies version is easier than the men's version, i'd be kind of upset if i was a woman. that would mean that SCCA thinks that women can't drive as well as men.

There is one woman here in CFR who drives a DS Protege on R compounds with her significant other who competes in the men's version of DS. I have more respect for her since she isn't competing in the ladies class.

so basically, is the PAX for ladies easier and what are women's thoughts on this?
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Old 04-28-2004, 04:27 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally posted by MRF582
that would mean that SCCA thinks that women can't drive as well as men.
Duh...


~runs away
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Old 04-28-2004, 04:32 PM   #3
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Reminds me of National Honor Society or something, you get the award for doing so well on the PSAT.

My school is a bunch of nerds and 2/3 of the class gets the award. So they call every one up, and then they have the Hispanic National Honor Society. Basically the standards were lower. So all the hispanic kids that were called up (including my buddy) were basically shown to not be smart enough to get the actual award, but got one anyway because they were hispanic.

My buddy told me it was humiliating.
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Old 04-28-2004, 04:39 PM   #4
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my school didn't have a Hispanic NHS. I went to HS in Pennsylvania though so the Hispanic community isn't as big there. My school wasn't very diverse. I was the only Indian in my school. I didn't need a handicap to make NHS although i should've petitioned for an Indian NHS. I could've been the president, secretary, treasurer etc. I could make my own awards and give them to myself.

i read a thread in the SE region forum where some woman was bitching about how the Subaru Challenge doesn't have a ladies class for STU. So it inspired me to make this thread.

All the women who register into ladies classes at Solo II events have consequently admitted defeat. you are saying to the world that you yourself don't think you are better drivers than men. all the women signing up at these events should be made to sign a form agreeing with that statement. And they must be required to wear a white wet t-shirt that says "most men are better drivers than me which is why i'm in the ladies class"

btw, are there ladies classes at Nationals? and do they compete with the men with easier PAXes or are the women drivers in a seperate points group?
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Old 04-28-2004, 04:44 PM   #5
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n00b Q:

PAX?
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Old 04-28-2004, 04:46 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by fliz
n00b Q:

PAX?
I don't know all the intricacies of it, but it's like a handicap.
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Old 04-28-2004, 04:49 PM   #7
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I ran in ladies class at the subaru challenge! why? because even though it was my first AX in the subie I was guaranteed a trophy!

but, when it's just for normal competition, I don't bother with women's classes, I'm friends with the boys, so I want to see how my driving stacks up against theirs rallyx is teh better, no classes except the number of wheels putting power to the ground, and stock vs modded.
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Old 04-28-2004, 04:52 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by sonicsuby
I don't know all the intricacies of it, but it's like a handicap.
the fastest car in Solo II gets a index PAX of 1.000 (like A-modified) the slower cars will get a number between 0 and 1 like .794 for DS. so you take .794 * time on course = PAX time. this way it evens the playing field for all the cars competing. it's a good idea but very hard to make it fair.

however, i'm not sure about this but the ladies version of the class will have a lower PAX index number than the men's version. so a woman in the same exact car with the same exact time as a man gets a better PAX score. which is complete bull**** btw.

i'm just waiting for a woman to say something about this and try and justify it so i can get both sides of the story.
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Old 04-28-2004, 04:52 PM   #9
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I haven't a clue why this is needed. Plenty of chicks driving Z06s that are far better than I will ever drive. It isn't necessary.

Too bad Solo 2 = drive for 5 mins, stand around and chase cones for 2 hours, and fat chance you can get anything else done that day....
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Old 04-28-2004, 04:54 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by bleuquila
I ran in ladies class at the subaru challenge! why? because even though it was my first AX in the subie I was guaranteed a trophy!

but, when it's just for normal competition, I don't bother with women's classes, I'm friends with the boys, so I want to see how my driving stacks up against theirs rallyx is teh better, no classes except the number of wheels putting power to the ground, and stock vs modded.
i think that is respectable. i'd take a free trophy too, lol.
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Old 04-28-2004, 05:10 PM   #11
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the PAX is the same for women's (ex. DSL) and open (ex. DS) classes, the only difference is who you're competing against.
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Old 04-28-2004, 05:16 PM   #12
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I don't think there should be a ladies class. It's not like running a marathon where men/women are clearly built differently; Auto-X uses equal skill regardless of gender.




-Matt
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Old 04-29-2004, 08:50 AM   #13
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women are generally lighter, and hence should be faster....

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Old 04-29-2004, 09:08 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by robmarch
women are generally lighter, and hence should be faster....

I just wanna know who screwed up and let them out of the kitchen? (it's Thurs. - I have no choice)
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Old 04-29-2004, 09:17 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cobreth
I don't think there should be a ladies class. It's not like running a marathon where men/women are clearly built differently; Auto-X uses equal skill regardless of gender.

-Matt
I agree totally but my guess is that the ladies classes were created to get women to come to the autocross and not feel intimitdated by all the men.
At our autocrosses, there is rarely more than one woman in any of the L classes. I guess they get trophies for showing up.
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Old 04-29-2004, 09:28 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by MRF582
First of all, I don't mean to flame. I'm trying to learn something here. Why does Solo II have ladies classes? is the PAX for the ladies classer easier than the PAX for the men's version of that class? like DSL vs DS?
No, they are the same.

Quote:
Originally posted by MRF582
if the PAX for the ladies version is easier than the men's version, i'd be kind of upset if i was a woman. that would mean that SCCA thinks that women can't drive as well as men.

so basically, is the PAX for ladies easier and what are women's thoughts on this?
Since the PAX is the same, nothing to be worried about now, is there?

The ladies class is around to increase participation for teh wimmenz. However, I know quite a few that refuse to compete in womens class and run in Open.

They have that option available to them. It's their fight to fight, not yours. Some like it, some don't. They solve it by picking to run in Women or Open. Rather simple actually.

Quote:
Originally posted by MRF582
There is one woman here in CFR who drives a DS Protege on R compounds with her significant other who competes in the men's version of DS. I have more respect for her since she isn't competing in the ladies class.
Is it an Orange Mazdaspeed?

Tell Andy & wife I (KC from New England) said Hi. They're nice people. Also tell them I expect to see him again at Mazda RevItUp finale like last year. (He finished 3rd overall last year)

--kC
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Old 04-29-2004, 09:32 AM   #17
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why isn't this in the motorsports forum? Anyway, they should have the same PAX. There are certainly women AutoXers who are better than I am.
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Old 04-29-2004, 09:43 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by JGard
why isn't this in the motorsports forum? Anyway, they should have the same PAX. There are certainly women AutoXers who are better than I am.
you are a woman!!
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Old 04-29-2004, 10:46 AM   #19
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Oh my, oh my, where to start...

First, let me state I am a woman. Just to clarify.

Second, as others have said, the ladies classes have the exact same PAX as the open class. There are no "ladies tees". The entire point of the PAX index is to take the car's ability out of the equation, so you can compare driver-to-driver. So of COURSE the women's index is the same as the men's. Sheesh. I've gotta say, some of these posts have been pretty insulting. It would have taken about 20 seconds of searching through results to verify that the women's PAX index was the same as the open index, for instance.

Third, as KC stated, the reasoning behind the ladies classes was to encourage female participation in the sport. I am constantly amazed at how few women we have compete. I simply can't imagine having one partner in a relationship be totally into this sport, while the other has zero desire to even attend the events, much less compete. My husband and I are both addicts. It works out well.

Fourth, there are a TON of reasons that a long-time lady autocrosser might compete in the ladies class:
  • Because there are lots of women competing in that particular ladies class, and they have a good, healthy competition going.
  • She's the only one in the ladies class, there are people in the open class she could compete against, but she wants a guaranteed trophy.
  • She's the only one in the ladies class, there are people in the open class, but she just does this for fun, and doesn't want to deal with the "fierce" competition that boys sometimes display.
  • The car is co-driven by a guy/gal team. They want to "give the car a break". It can sometimes be rough on a car to co-drive a car in the same class.
  • The event limits the number of people who can compete in the same car in a given class. So if the limit is 1 driver/car/class, the woman would probably compete in ladies, and the guy competes in the same car in open. Very few events have a higher limit than 2. So frequently, 2 guys will co-drive a car, and then the 2 ladies will co-drive it in ladies.
  • There are prizes/money at stake.

Personally, I always race open locally. (Except for my very first season, when I was in FPL, and there was no one in FP to compete against if I wanted to.) I much prefer having good competition than racing in a ladies class all by myself. I personally wouldn't find that nearly as much fun.

That said, I just registered for the Toledo Pro and the Toledo National Tour. And I registered for the ladies classes. Why?? A few reasons:[list=1][*]There is money at stake at the Pro. I want the best chance I can get to take home some of that contingency money![*]I do NOT want to unnecessarily put the wear-and-tear of a co-drive on the car, especially at the Pro. It is hard enough to keep the car's tires and IC cool when co-driven at a normal event. And with this year's change in the Pro rules, people are expecting problems during the hot summer events for one-driver cars. It would be much, much worse for a two-driver car, from what I've read of the Pro procedures.[*]At least at the Pro, I am guaranteed at least 4 competitors, because of the bumping rules.[*]Even at the National Tour, I'm hoping/expecting that there will probably be at least one other woman to compete against.[*]These are my first National-level events. If it turns out there's no one to compete against at the National Tour, then next year, I'll probably race open. But I'll try the ladies class first. [*]Did I mention there was money at stake at the Pro (and at the National Championships)?? [/list=1]
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Old 04-29-2004, 10:57 AM   #20
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I think it's a nice way to draw women into the sport -
it can be intimidating - being female and wanting to try something so complely male oriented and dominated.


We dont have this luxury in Rally tho.
And it was very intimidating starting out...


Jamie
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Old 04-29-2004, 10:58 AM   #21
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One thing to point out... there are only 2 ladies classes at a ProSolo... L1 and L2. For Solo-II, there is a ladies class available for each open class.

--kC
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Old 04-29-2004, 11:06 AM   #22
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Also note that many regions (like the region I run in...Central Carolina) run the Ladies class as a PAXed class due to the small overall turnout of the Ladies classes, so this gets rid of the whole "no competition" problem as there is only one "class" when it comes to trophy time.

(This is also how the "Novice" and "Street Tire" classes are done. Many clubs have a "Pro" class setup that way as well.)

But yes, I'd have to say the primary reason for the "Ladies class" concept is increased participation from the ladies. Some ladies feel they can't (or shouldn't have to) compete with the men and likely wouldn't run otherwise. Many of the ladies class entrants are also "spouses" who are there more for supporting their husband's sport, moreso than competing for his trophy (though some ladies seem to find quite a bit of pleasure in outrunning their husbands in the same car in open class... )

Shane -- SM 729
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Old 04-29-2004, 11:26 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Warp3
(though some ladies seem to find quite a bit of pleasure in outrunning their husbands in the same car in open class... )
Ah, that's a great feeling!! (Almost never happens for me, but when it does, it ROCKS! )
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Old 04-29-2004, 11:43 AM   #24
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I think it's good to get females out there but if you're the only one in your class and you get a trophy for just showing up then what's the point???

I say if yer serious then take the harder path and fight it out.

I'm an autoX n00b so why am I posting to this.


-mykr.
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Old 04-29-2004, 01:03 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by mykrrrr
I say if yer serious then take the harder path and fight it out.
Personally, I agree. But having that "ladies class" option does make it less intimidating when you're first starting out.

Somewhat off on a tangent, I was one of the autocross chairs for our local club last year, and I rather liked the suggestion that one of our members had. There was a discussion about getting some "nicer" trophies. And this guy suggested that maybe the "nicer" trophies should be awarded only to people in contested classes. In other words, if you were the only one in your class, you were only eligible for the "normal" prizes, not the "nice" prizes. If you wanted to be eligible for "nice" prizes, you should bump yourself to a class with some competition.

Only problem I see with that is that sometimes, the reason you're the only person in the class is because your car is much more modded than any others. For instance, EM and DM locally usually have 0, 1, or SOMETIMES 2 drivers. But the EM and DM cars don't have anywhere to "bump" to.
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