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Old 05-03-2004, 01:16 AM   #1
FuJi K
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Default Dual port EJ22 heads VS single port EJ22 heads

How much better is the flow off a early Normally Aspirated MY90's EJ22 compared to a MY99 EJ22? I may pick up a set if the numbers are good enough.

Will the EJ25 headers bolt right up to these EJ22 heads?
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Old 05-03-2004, 09:56 AM   #2
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flow will not be as good on the dual port ej22's because the valves are smaller then the single port ej22's.

The newer single port ej22's and all ej25's I believe have the same size valves.

The ej25 headers will bolt up to the dual port ej22 heads. You may have to do some tweaking on the exhaust later down the line, depending on what car/exhaust is currently on there, but they will bolt right up to the heads.
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Old 05-03-2004, 01:49 PM   #3
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The valve opening may flow more, but that doesn't mean that the head will have better perfromance. With the complete lack of exhaust tuning available for the single port, your overall performance will not be as good at the heads with duall ports and an equal length header. A tuned exhaust that eliminates a good deal of pumping losses is going to be providing more usable power than the engine that sucks more air, and uses more energy to evacuate the computsion chamber.

Its a system, not a collection of parts.

cheeRS,

Greg
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Old 05-03-2004, 07:58 PM   #4
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There's plently of threads out there that support what I said. Just got to search.

The intake and exhaust ports are both larger. That's a system for input and output last I checked. The new H6 uses a single exhaust port dump. It can't be that bad...
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Old 05-03-2004, 08:10 PM   #5
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No its not a system. A system would be from the inlet of the intake tract to the exit of the exhaust pipe. I could care less what other threads menton this. THe likely hood of those people reading someone elses trash and spewing it all over again is to high for that to even be legitimate. Espically on an internet forum. Please.

I would put a dual port head with equal length headers against a single port head with what ever exhaust you want to put on it while remaining naturally aspirated, and I will make more power. Everytime.

With legitimate size primaries, ALL the time.

cheeRS,

Greg
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Old 05-03-2004, 08:15 PM   #6
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Oh, and the last time I checked the EZ30 has absolutly no path for upgrading it. There will never be a header for it, you will have two dump pipes with a single merge. With 6 cylinders, that is really crappy. SInce there is no exhaust tuning that is at all worth while, doing anything with the itake manifold is pointless, as you might as leave the variable manifold in place. You you put a tube intake on it and a higher flowing exhaust.

WOW! Sweet set up.
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Old 05-04-2004, 12:36 AM   #7
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Because some engines respond well to certain upgrades may mean they were poor systems to begin with. The Single port 2.2l have more HP AND (did we forget about exhaust velocities?) more torque than their twin port ancestors - from the factory.

Perhaps they don't NEED an exhaust upgrade. That's a good thing.
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Old 05-04-2004, 10:37 AM   #8
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If you are nickle and diming a build, and only buying the parts you need to make the engine run while money is an issue and you don't want to pay for a real exhaust. Do what you want. Money was never mentioned in the original question.

ANY kind of exhaust tuning, and the single port design is the lesser of the two.

ABSOLUTLY NO engine in a modern car with any kind of sporting asperations has ever had single port exhausts. The design is poor. It saves money when manufacturing exhaust manifolds. Nothing more. Casting holes in the head is cheaper than manufacturing twice as many dumps in an exhaust manifold.

Those heads are better for turbo applications, NOT NA. You guys have obvioulsy never heard of exhaust scavaging. You will never get over 100% volumetrivc effeciency with single port heads (with out charging), without the aid of a set of headers.

Since you guys obviously belive everything that you read, I imaging that you also believe that Trey Cobb is god. Why don't you call him and ask them this question. Ask him which head flows better, and then which head is going to produce more output when actually in the vehicle.

Single port exhaust heads do not respond to exhaust tuning because the "restriction" is inside the head, to the point where you can't change it. You have also read to many pages regarding torque (where people mindlessly repeat the trash they read somwhere else). torque under 2000 RPM is useless, for anything other than crawling in stop and go traffic and parking your car. If you launch your car at all, the RPM's are always above 2000 RPM, you shift, and guess what, your RPMS are above 2000 RPM. HP is a function of torque, so more torque is always good in the middle and higher in the rev range. Low end torque is a useless quantity for anything other than a heavey vehicle, or one that carries or tows a heavy load. It has no bearing on the standard performance numbers which people judge car. quarter mile, 0-60 ect. If you have an automatic, there is a limit of how much low end torque you want to trade for the high end.

If you are so concerned about torque and exhaust velocity, I recomend that you install a smaller exhaust diameter to increase your exhaust velocity. You will have more off idle torque. Your car will be so much faster, it will be AMAZING.

Little snipets of information about how to increase certain parts effeciency do not make a engine produce more power (such as exhaust velocity, to increase output, the exhaust is always changed for something a little larger, never smaller. Lots of velocity is bad, it means there is a restriction present where velocity is the highest, the lesson of exhaust velocity is that you need to retain some velocity to keep the car running smoothly at lower RPM, and keep some drivability an torque). You have to think systamatically, as one part affects the system. Have you ever heard of "rice math"? It is thinking that all the parts add up individually to produce power. It doesn't work that way, they all work together, and they don't each produce more power additively as a system.

cheeRS,

Greg
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Old 05-04-2004, 11:22 AM   #9
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So now, will it make a difference in my mid-range rev-band?
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Old 05-04-2004, 01:37 PM   #10
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If FujiK wants to sacrifice low end torque and build a 1/4 miler that's fine. I think he'd be better off swapping in a turbo plant and forget about actually trying to ever turn the car while going quickly. That would make Greg happy and that's what we all want.
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Old 05-04-2004, 02:04 PM   #11
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Sacrificing midrange usually ends up in a quarter car, sacrificing torque under 2000 RPM doesn't. Cobb spicy cams are not a wild track only cam (Cobb does grind one of those if that is waht you want), this is what I run in my car. it putter around under 2000 RPM, over that they are very lively. Before I put the 9.5 pound flywheel in the car, it was a easy to drive car. With a full exhaust, and an intake it ran 14.6 in the quarter (this is a 2001 RS).

You are not sacrificing ALL of the low end torque, just some of it, and you are clearly producing more torque at 3000 RPM on up.


FuJi-

Will what make a difference in mid-range?

cheeRS,

Greg
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Old 05-04-2004, 02:53 PM   #12
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Believe me, I'm all about car control. A little good midrange would be helpful too when coming out of a corner. I can get some MY90's dual ports for a good price, which is why I wondering if it'll benefit me if I did swap the heads. If not, I'll just save my pennies for the swap.

The 1320 isn't my kind of racing. I'm looking at doing a few road racing events this summer with www.AARRF.com

EDIT: Will the MY90's heads make a difference in mid range rec-band.
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Old 05-04-2004, 03:25 PM   #13
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With out a header, no.

If building the engine isn't your ultimate goal (sounds like a complete engine swap is) don't spend any money on it. Buying parts that you can't use later is not a cost effective method of upgrading your car.

cheeRS,

Greg
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Old 05-04-2004, 03:29 PM   #14
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Oh and since everyone here seems to think that I run in a straight line (I have been to the drag strip twice), I roll AO32R's with Tein HA's (That have been sold for the RA's sitting on my floor) on a daily basis.

cheeRS,

Greg
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Old 05-04-2004, 03:55 PM   #15
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"Low end torque is a useless quantity for anything other than a heavey vehicle, or one that carries or tows a heavy load. It has no bearing on
>> the standard performance numbers which people judge car. quarter mile, 0-60 ect."<<

That is the main reason I thought you were pushing for 1/4mile performance. I recognize you have more knowledge and experience than I do, and perhaps my (our) first mistake was in not asking Fuji what his goals were and in defining 'low end torque'. There are a lot of things one could do to increase 'twisty fun' before swapping heads. And, that is especially true for the 2.2l, partly perhaps, as you maintain, because of the head ports (though the valves are better than pre-99MY), but also because it is somewhat the 'bastard child' in terms of aftermarket options. Lightened f'wheel/pulleys, pulling out xtra weight, lighter/better wheel/tire combos, camber adj. ,ALKs,etc. And even perhaps a little higher comp. and some toluene for the serious NA guys. I don't believe in rice math or sticker HP and , for the 2.2l there is even scant dyno numbers for intake, exhaust, or other mods.(regardless of whether you can believe the manufacturer).
sorry for any confusion on my part - I'm out.

Carl
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Old 05-04-2004, 09:05 PM   #16
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ok you guys have me confused now.
which heads are dual port and which are single?
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Old 05-05-2004, 12:00 AM   #17
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Carl,

Yes, that would have been effective. Everyone seems to be talking about full bore builds lately.

Dual port heads have an exhaust port for each cylinder. 4 cylinders, 4 exhaust ports, for pipes forming a manifold/header.

The single port heads have one exhaust port for each cylinder, but they travel through the head and meet before they exit the head through a singele hole. In these heads there is only 2 pipes that bolt to the engine, one on each side.

Here is a crude drawing of the idea, circles are the exhaust ports:



cheeRS,

Greg
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Old 05-05-2004, 02:05 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by greg donovan
ok you guys have me confused now.
which heads are dual port and which are single?
(uh - 2.2l of course)

Greg D - MY '98 and older - dual port

MY '99 up - single port
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Old 05-05-2004, 10:07 AM   #19
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So why not just swap newer 2.5L heads onto your newer 2.2L block? Wouldn't that make more sense than swapping on the older (lower hp/dual port) 2.2L heads? Or would it lower compression to the point of lowering overall hp/torque even with a tuned exhaust setup?


Mick
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Old 05-05-2004, 10:58 AM   #20
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phaseII sohc ej25 heads are about 10cc bigger than the ej22 heads and would lower the already low 9.4:1 CR even lower. would be good for turbo though i bet but thats a discussion for another forum.

i am going to to the opposite.
90ej22 heads on a new ej25 shortblock. should have a geometric/static CR of about 11.6:1 and a effective CR of 10:1.

i plan on using a DIY water injection kit to stave off detonation and keep the more aggressive timing.

been researching this alot over on the legacy centrall BB and think i have got figured out.

greg
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Old 05-05-2004, 06:15 PM   #21
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FYI,

Theres some good water injection talk here too!::

http://www.mr2oc.com/search.php?s=&a...der=descending


Randy
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Old 05-06-2004, 01:03 AM   #22
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this place is cool but not very busy and it takes about 6-12 hrs registration to become active. but it is a huge resource for WI:

http://www.h20injection.com/forum/ph...3223436c930781

there are some really smart guys there. i dont know why all performance cars dont come w/WI from the factory.

it seems like the perfect solution. high boost/high CR/only crap gas in your area just add water.
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Old 05-06-2004, 01:29 AM   #23
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Lowest Common Denominator.

The dependence on the buyer to do something other than add gas and change oil on a constant regular basis to maintain a critical system is asking for problems.

Manufactures already have enough problems with people who intentionally put cheap gas in their cars that call for premium.

cheeRS,

Greg
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Old 05-06-2004, 01:39 AM   #24
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that what i think too. everyone is too lazy. i have worked with people that have never changed thier oil. and i dont mean DIY they have NEVER had it done. dont even get me started on airpressure.
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