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Old 05-03-2004, 05:59 PM   #1
jds
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Default New 2008 F1 Rule Proposal. Discuss.

According to Autoweek, the FIA is proposing major changes to F1 rules to begin the 2008 season. Full article is at Autoweek.com

The Cliffs notes include:

NA 2.4 l V8 Engine
Each engine to run for two entire race weekends
Manual gearbox and clutch
Electronic diffs & power steering disallowed
Carbon-carbon braking systems disallowed
Spec tires, no changeout during races

You really should go to the trouble of reading the whole article.

Would these proposed changes be good or bad for F1? For F1 fans? For F1 constructors and teams?

Discuss amongst yourselves.
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Last edited by jds; 05-03-2004 at 07:19 PM.
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Old 05-03-2004, 06:19 PM   #2
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that's different (at least the engine part is) than rules changes proposed for the 2005 season

link to discussion a few days ago


edit: nevermind, didn't RTFA until just now, it's 2.4L NA V8. The rules come about in 2008 because the agreement of the teams doesn't apply more than three years out.
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Old 05-03-2004, 07:25 PM   #3
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You're right. It is a 2.4 l V8. Edited original post.

Personally, I'm happy to see many of the electronic driver assists like launch control go away. After all, it's about DRIVING.

However, the new rules will also eliminate variable-length runners, high-pressure direct injection, and other bits of engine technology that could (or already have) trickle-down to us lowly consumers. I do want to see F1 remain the most technologically advanced race series in the world.

I suppose if the cost of entry into the F1 series can be lowered, we may see more diverse teams in F1. Maybe even an American team again someday...

-jds
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Old 05-03-2004, 08:06 PM   #4
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they shouldn't do that.
that's biting IRL

seriously, that's tkaing 10 steps backwards. this isn't houseleague; if they can't pay, don't play

i believe in technological advancement. if they go thru w/ this they might as well run downdraft carbs while they're at it
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Old 05-03-2004, 09:40 PM   #5
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Interesting. It would be nice for them to retain things that could possibly trickle-down to passenger cars - competing tires, active diffs, clutchless manuals, cylinder direct injection. Losing the tech that will never trickle-down, like carbon-carbon brakes, isn't IMO that much of a loss.

Making the engines smaller is probably just going to give them the ability to rev them higher. It'll be a physically smaller and lighter package too, meaning lighter car and better cooling with existing bodywork, or even tighter bodywork will be possible aft of the cockpit.

Personally, I'd like to see a lot of the aero go away. Going to 2-element rear wings with with spec-area endplates this season was a start.
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Old 05-03-2004, 10:02 PM   #6
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No spec anything in F1. Certainly not something as major as tires!

Eliminate good brakes... yeah, there's a good way to make the series safer

Argh... the FIA is gonna kill both F1 & WRC before the decade is out...
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Old 05-03-2004, 10:12 PM   #7
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champ cars still run steel brakes, they're fine.

I don't mind steel brakes, but no spare car, no tire change is a bit too much IMO.
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Old 05-03-2004, 11:39 PM   #8
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What this will do is turn the sport into just another spec racing. Which is NOT what F1 is about. F1 is about technology, screaming high horsepower V12s, and beautiful cars. We dont need another Champ Car or IRL to come up. I'll be SEVERELY disapointed if these changes get put in place.
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Old 05-04-2004, 12:15 AM   #9
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Of course, F1 is currently v10, and has been for years.
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Old 05-04-2004, 12:29 AM   #10
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We are just now seeing modern F1 technology drip into modern road cars. Look at the the new M5 that will have a V10 in it. The Enzo has giagantic ceramic brakes. Every manufacturer and their dog is putting in"f1" paddle shiffters in their cars. Revs are going up ( Honda S200) and relative mileage is going up too. I think all of these things are directly linked in a positive way to the heat of competation in F1. I like to see technology go into road cars and putting the kiabosh on it in the series will do nothing to advance automotive technology. I say more driving (manul shifts, no ABS, no launch control) AND more technology.
I would also like Americans to step up to the plate in F1. I know Ford is kinda Jag (I don't count the blue oval on the Jordans)and Chrsyler is kinda Mercedes but I would like the big 3 to have a presence and prove their worth to the world.
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Old 05-04-2004, 04:18 AM   #11
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If they are going to stop advances in technology, they should bring back the 1100hp 1.5L turbo I4.
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Old 05-04-2004, 07:52 AM   #12
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IMHO the stupidest thing is that they're doing away with tire changes, yet still requiring a fuel change Go back to the old days of no fuel changes and optional tire changes. Think of all the money teams could save without having two or three fuel rigs, breathing aparatus for the fuel guys, etc. etc.

Anyway, these rules suck, and make me hope the "breakaway" series to replace F1 will be a success. It'll be a shame to lose the history of the sport, but it already seems like Bernie is having his way with its corpse anyhow.

-tim
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Old 05-04-2004, 09:12 AM   #13
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Apparently today is the big day, and it seems like the rules changes are all but a foregone conclusion...

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/ar...097809,00.html
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Old 05-04-2004, 10:24 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by jds
After all, it's about DRIVING.
Quote:
Originally posted by NC2.5RS
F1 is about technology, screaming high horsepower V12s, and beautiful cars.
Obviously, there are different opinions on what this sport is about. Sounds like no matter what happens, half of the people are going to be happier, and half not.
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Old 05-04-2004, 03:27 PM   #15
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Teams agree to Mosley's F1 plan
F1 summit a success as teams accept F1 revolution in 2006


Max Mosley's plans to revolutionise Formula 1 have been met with approval


Formula 1's team principals have fallen into line over Max Mosley's proposals for a revolution in the sport at a summit called by the FIA in Monaco today.

The rules aimed at reducing costs and making the sport more entertaining have been met with widespread acceptance by the teams and 95 percent of them are expected to be ratified in time for 2006, two years earlier than expected.

However Formula 1's engine manufacturers must attend further meetings starting with one at the Spanish Grand Prix this weekend in order to thrash out a definitive set of technical regulations.

At present the choice is between a long-life six-race 3.0-litre engine based on current specifications or an all-new 2.4-litre V8. Either way they have tasked to reduce costs by 50 percent. They also have to decide whether they will resist the introduction of standard ECUs until 2008, automatically banning traction control, or whether this will become part of the 2006 regulations to be ratified at the World Council meeting on June 30.

In summary the meeting decided:

ENGINES

Discussions to take place over size of engines, with change expected to take place from 2006

Standard ECUs will be mandatory from 2008 and discussions are now taking place about whether these can be introduced for 2006

TRANSMISSION, BRAKING AND STEERING

Agreement that the ‘least expensive solutions' to be implemented as soon as possible for braking, steering and transmission

The return of manual gearboxes has been rejected because the current semi-automatic units are more economical

Standard brake discs, pads and callipers will be introduced as soon as possible

CHASSIS

The weight limit reduction could be greater than the proposed 50kg because of the increased weight loss caused by the loss of heavy electronic systems

Discussions have taken place about reducing the number of electronic sensors on the cars and the possibility of introducing a standard data logger

SPORTING

No spare car as it is currently known will be allowed – only a spare monocoque in a pre-packed box

Cars will be held overnight in parc ferme and teams will be allowed to adjust the car but not rebuild it

The creation of new championships, like engine manufacturer or constructors with more teams is open for discussion

A ban on tyre changes in races could happen by 2005

A dramatic reduction in testing will be imposed – to the extent that teams will no longer need to run second test teams alongside their race outfits

The FIA has instructed the teams and Bernie Ecclestone to come up with a better qualifying system to replace the current format

Tender to go out to tyre manufacturers for a single tyre supplier by 2006. The tyre width will be reduced at the front and increased at the rear – with slicks most likely returning

GENERAL

The teams are open to the idea of no restriction on the sale, loan or exchange of chassis and components between teams or new entrants, but require certain guarantees about not devaluing Formula 1 or their own teams' financial situation

Unanimous voting on short term technical rule changes to be replaced by majority voting

There will be no new Concorde Agreement to replace the current one, which runs out at the end of 2007
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Old 05-04-2004, 04:29 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by gtguy
Tender to go out to tyre manufacturers for a single tyre supplier by 2006. The tyre width will be reduced at the front and increased at the rear – with slicks most likely returning
Just about the ONLY thing I agree with, other than that:
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Old 05-04-2004, 05:01 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by TimStevens
Just about the ONLY thing I agree with, other than that:
I'm with you, Tim. I just don't understand all of the changes. One tire manufacturer and a reduction in testing makes for a significant cost savings. They already had a long-life engine program in place, without necessitating a "spec" motor.

There isn't any question that costs in F1 are getting crazy. I can't believe that Toyota spends more than any other team. But testing, where you're schlepping the whole team around from track to track, is incredibly expensive. Part of why Ferrari was against a testing reduction (and part of why Mosley wants a majority rule, instead of unanimity) is that Ferrari can basically drive to their testing facility, so it's (comparatively) cheap for them to test.

But I think that measures aimed at reducing costs could have been discussed without resorting to such draconian changes.

And as we know, the rich are still going to be rich, and the Minardis are still going to be the Minardis. Mosley has been after something like this for a very long time, for at least 10 years. I wonder if he didn't wave the prospect of continued Ferrari domination in the faces of the other teams.

Unreal stuff...

Kevin
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Old 05-04-2004, 05:30 PM   #18
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There isn't going to be a spec motor. There is a lot of misinformation going around (like people thinking they still run v12's, thinking its supposed to be for the 2005 season, etc.)

I like a lot of the changes. V8's will reduce the horsepower, which will mean easier overtaking. Having only one manufactuer (not a spec tire btw) will mean times will go up, but it will also mean that races will be decided by the teams, not by the tires. Reducing testing will help bring down costs a ton, and also help the competition. One of the reasons ferrari is doing so well right now is that they're testing ALL the time. They won the constructors championship because of that. After the hungarian GP, they tested with 4 drivers for a long time to fix their problems. I like the control ECU, no more complaints of cheating with traction control (like ferrari was using with their gear shifts, etc.)

I don't like that they're going to allow refueling. That is one thing I really don't like right now about qualifying is that you have no idea how much fuel people have on board. It is also dangerous. Changing tires is okay (although I would like to see it disappear as well) but refueling is not.

Having all the teams agree to it provisionally is also HUGE. I doubt anything has been agreed to as quickly or unanimously in F1 ever.
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Old 05-04-2004, 05:34 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by StuBeck
Having only one manufactuer (not a spec tire btw) will mean times will go up, but it will also mean that races will be decided by the teams, not by the tires.
Spec tire or no, everyone will be on the same rubber each race. With no tire changes allowed, I can't imagine anyone will be taking any risks with a soft compound.
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Old 05-04-2004, 05:41 PM   #20
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How can there possibly be a standard ECU when (almost) every team has a different engine, from a different manufacturer, with different specs?

I don't see how this will work unless each team gets to program it however they choose, which sort of seems to negate the point of a "standard" ECU.

Any return to slicks sounds good to me, but the competition between Michelin and Bridgestone was fun.

No more hi-tech brakes Bad idea IMO in cars that just keep getting faster and faster despite rule changes.

If they're going to remove ONE hi-tech thing I say the transmissions. How can a manual transmission POSSIBLY be less economical than the computerized ones now, I simply don't buy it.

Eliminate traction control, etc, but to eliminate hi-tech brake materials is stupidity... it's like outlawing carbon fibre in the chassis. Sure aluminum and fiberglass can work, but CF is simply better. The current brakes are simply better than steel brakes.

The simple fact is that they're never going to be able to regulate away the fact that the top teams (Ferrari) budget more for a single race than some of the lower teams have for the whole season. No matter how much they try to compromise the base platform (make it cheap), those with the most money to pour into it are going to achieve the best results.

I realize the series needs to stay economically viable to remain existent, but at some point you have to stop and say, "You know, this is supposed to be the highest form of motorsport on the planet; why aren't we using the best materials availible to our modern age?"

I don't want to see the fastest cars in the world based on 1980's technology in 2004/5/6/8.

And Schumi will still conquer all until he retires at this rate, even if the cars get pulled down to F3000 standards... feh

And we're not being told something here... why are all the teams suddenly so compliant with bizzare & widesweeping rules changes? There's something going on behind the scenes here, I wonder what it is.
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Old 05-04-2004, 06:12 PM   #21
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geez that all happened kind of fast. didnt expect all the teams to agree so fast.

they didnt mention aero, i suppose they will reduce the aero downforce if they go back to slicks.

so wheres the room for innovation?
aero?
suspension?
engine?

i hope some teams can come up with some nifty new stuff even with these new regulations.
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Old 05-04-2004, 06:46 PM   #22
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Well, by the time these changes are implemented, M. Schumacher will have driven off into the sunset.

I think that some of the changes are good, I would agree. The regular brakes thing means that people will be able to out-brake each other, for example, particularly with the improved grip from slicks. The incredible braking performance of carbon fiber means that people can't out-brake another car without running wide, or hosing it off.

The fact that the teams all agreed, means they understand the danger of runaway costs. But we'll see what the other manufacturers (engines, etc.) have to say.

I think that in F1, however, everybody tests like crazy. It's crazy expensive to bring two other cars to every race, like the BARs, etc. of the world are doing. And the Ferraris of the world are still going to have more money. I think what helped them last year, btw, was the unified nature of the car. It's all made in-house. It certainly didn't hurt to have a test track right down the road.

Kevin
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Old 05-04-2004, 08:21 PM   #23
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F1racing.net just said that the rules could be in place as early as 2006. Sounds way too radical for my taste but I will still watch.
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Old 05-04-2004, 08:31 PM   #24
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i'm pretty sure we'll see those 2.4L V8s pumping out stupid horsepower in 5-7 years of implementation.

as it is now, who'd ever expect 3 litre V10s to pump out 900+?
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Old 05-04-2004, 08:44 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by TimStevens
Spec tire or no, everyone will be on the same rubber each race. With no tire changes allowed, I can't imagine anyone will be taking any risks with a soft compound.
Wasn't everyone on Bridgestone's just three season's ago? There were still a variety of tire compounds and characteristics to work with.
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