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Old 05-12-2004, 02:19 AM   #51
sube151
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Quote:
Originally posted by Subie Gal
personally...


*lanes were way way way too narrow
*there was no real division between lanes (very dangerous!)
*jump was too arched
*water crossing and back straight --->WAY TOO WET
(clogged my radiator causing overheating, let alone no grip)

Many cars crossed over into the other lane.... including me.
this is just damn dangerous - i feared for myself and my competitor once this occurred... and it was this fear that drove me to try to get back into my lane asap - at which point i high centered.... my fault for caring i guess... but it was just too damn dangerous at that point. all i can say is it's a good thing i was well ahead of Chris when this occurred or it would have been very very ugly.


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I was almost creamed out at the back straight. Ralph Kosmides went over the birm directly towards my car. Luckily the over watered road also caused me to slide out of my lane and avoid the impact.

-Victor
#423 Club Rally
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Old 05-12-2004, 11:53 AM   #52
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Quote:
*lanes were way way way too narrow
I thought lane width was a great sized based off some of the roads we drove up on the mountain. They were no smaller then any rallycross we have in the NW.

Quote:
*there was no real division between lanes (very dangerous!)
The division between lanes was about as tall as that berm you and I hopped over down in reno. I will agree to this, it could have been better with haybales or tires to separate.

Quote:
*jump was too arched
This has it's various causes. The drivers hard braking right before the jump caused a small dip right before it. The first time, we didn't take it so well, the second time was perfect. The next two times we were in the right lane which was a jump, but not as "moto-crossy."

Quote:
*water crossing and back straight --->WAY TOO WET
When the racing gets tough, the tought call it.... RALLY.

Quote:
(clogged my radiator causing overheating, let alone no grip)
gotta clean that out. We ran into the same problem, but caught it soon enough to take care of the issue.

Quote:
Many cars crossed over into the other lane.... including me.
As did we, but i calmed down the driver and told him to let the other guys take it, it wasn't worth the heartache for 2 seconds.

Quote:
REAL special stages (wrc) have a cross over so that the car in the outside lane doesnt get shafted if you drew the outside lane (like i did 3 times) you either got completely dusted out.. or played catch up trying to stay with the competitor on the shorter, inside lane....
You'll notice that the outside lane is longer through the front straight, corner 1, and the back straight. Through the slalom it evened up, then through the center field the previous outside lane was on the inside with the shorter line. I feel the organizers did a very good job with what they had to work with.

Quote:
I feel horrible for those that DNF'd on that stage.
Sure, I feel bad for 'em. But If they can't keep a cool head on stage, then they break things. When you and I were running super-hot down in reno, what happened? We crested smack down onto a rock. I didn't know how to at the time, but I should have been able to rein you back in and get you to drive more conservatively. We had plenty of lead at that point... I can now and thats just what I did. Maybe that's part of the reason why we came home with the G2 Pro win.

-Jason
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Old 05-12-2004, 12:01 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by sube151
I was almost creamed out at the back straight. Ralph Kosmides went over the birm directly towards my car. Luckily the over watered road also caused me to slide out of my lane and avoid the impact.

-Victor
#423 Club Rally
although Jason's point of view is interesting - this is exactly what I was referring to.

we're lucky nobody was T-boned or sideswiped....

Jamie
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Old 05-12-2004, 03:45 PM   #54
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I have to chime in that I didn't enjoy driving on the superstage at all. The track was watered down all to heck, but there was still blinding dust, so you had no grip (ok fine), no seperation of lanes (not fine), no visibility since you were running right next to another car (or in my case slightly behind the car in the next lane), which by the way is generally something that's avoided in rally for safety reasons (via floating reseeds and such). I hope it was entertaining for the fans, because it was very frustrating and annoying for me as a driver.
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Old 05-12-2004, 05:15 PM   #55
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Quote:
Other comments: Hats off to Verdier; that guy is FAST. 5th overall in a PGT car...wow. Stage times were really incredible compared to N and Open cars.


mmmmmkay yeaah.

Next time I'm going to bust out a stopwatch and clock him because his accelleration down the front stretch seemed to be about as fast as Burke's.

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Old 05-12-2004, 05:54 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by Subie Gal
*water crossing and back straight --->WAY TOO WET
Er... How wet can a water crossing get before it's too wet?
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Old 05-12-2004, 07:01 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by datageek
Er... How wet can a water crossing get before it's too wet?
Water crossings have limits to depth on rallies under normal circumstances datageek, this is mainly to stop the engines ingesting water and hydrolocking, destroying thousands of $ worth of engine. It's important the organisors do as much as posible to protect the competitors and their equipment, it's an expensive enough sport as it is without dealing with avoidable damage.

The only WRC event that used to not comply with this was the Safari rally in Kenya, and for that the teams installed snorkles for the inlet systems of the engines, so you wouldn't have mass retirements. Jamie also mentioned the back straight in her comment about the level of water used which you didnt address yet quoted.

I am glad you are now learning how to co-drive Jason, it apears there is still a lot you dont understand about what makes a good co-driver though. Good luck with the future events you take part in and keep on building experience.
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Old 05-12-2004, 07:07 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by johnfelstead
Water crossings have limits to depth on rallies under normal circumstances datageek,
Four letters for you: STPR.

/Andrew
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Old 05-12-2004, 07:09 PM   #59
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come again Andrew?
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Old 05-12-2004, 07:18 PM   #60
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I think he's referring to shots like this (Stoney Fork Water Crossing):
http://linaracing.com/pics/picturede...icturenumber=1
http://jenisys.com/fkr/rally/stpr_99/stpr99_2.jpg

Not so typical for us in the states, but a commonplace for Rally Argentina or what was the Safari Rally.
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Old 05-12-2004, 07:56 PM   #61
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This is what Safari rally water crossing looks like, see the snorkle.

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Old 05-12-2004, 08:08 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally posted by johnfelstead
Water crossings have limits to depth on rallies under normal circumstances datageek,
The water splash on the SuperSpecial at Rim didn't exceed 25cm at any point. Not to mention it was only about 2 meters wide at its maximum.

I recognize that a lot of people felt the jump was oversized, but I think it's time to take a step back and apply some critical rigor.

The SSS was approximately 1.2km long, and the max and min clean times in any class never varied by more than 7-8 seconds. We set a 1.25, 1.23, and 1.20 or something, driving quite conservatively. If anyone really thought that hammering it on the SSS was the way to win the rally, they deserved to lose it there.

Additionally, as we've already discussed, competitors were allowed to walk the stage before their run, and had at least 45 minutes to do so, given that each SSS was preceded by a service.

Lastly, if a 20-year old Supercross star has enough sense to lift over a jump, so should you.

- Christian
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Old 05-12-2004, 08:15 PM   #63
Subie Gal
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Christian..... addressing this to you...
all in all, did you think the super-special was safe?

if so i'm suprised.
especially based on your experience(s)

I sure didnt. not when i slid into my competitors lane.
and no, i was not pushing... I know better.... yet i still managed to get m'self stuck... the car just went WHEEEEE.... and there i was

i saw the exact same scenario happen to many other competitors as well, some with much more driving experience than most...

I walked the stage...
Still, was quite different when attempting to navigate it.

*shrug*

this is not a bash fest on the organizers nor the rally
just a few things that could be 'better next time' perhaps???


Jamie
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Old 05-12-2004, 11:14 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by johnfelstead


I am glad you are now learning how to co-drive Jason, it apears there is still a lot you dont understand about what makes a good co-driver though.
Well, the almighty John has spoken! I'm shocked, SHOCKED! you weren't there to co-drive, as I'm sure your car would have been victorious simply because John Felstead was in the vehicle...

Tell us what makes a good co-driver...a quick google search didn't turn up much record of your WRC wins...

I'm sure you meant well by that statement, but it made you sound a bit of a tall poppy...
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Old 05-13-2004, 12:04 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by Subie Gal
Christian..... addressing this to you...
all in all, did you think the super-special was safe?

if so i'm suprised.
especially based on your experience(s)
*Shrug* Was it perfect? No. It would have been better with a larger spacing between the lanes, a higher berm, and some bales. Yes.

But from a risk standpoint, I sure don't think it compares to Wilson Mills or Painter Run, and very few (any?) drivers are advocating significant changes to those stages.

I guess my point is, I think putting up a round-bale chicane in the middle of Wilson Mills will do more for our collective safety than any change to the SSS at Rim. Or ensuring that all rallies are made to run sequencing on stage.

But sure, I get your point re: better next time. I'm just saying, I didn't feel like I was in mortal danger at any time and that it wasn't necessary to take the jump at 110%, and anyone who did, should have known better.

Cheers,
- Christian

PS: When you gonna offer me a ride in that wagon, eh?
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Old 05-13-2004, 02:54 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jgrahn555
I think he's referring to shots like this (Stoney Fork Water Crossing):
http://linaracing.com/pics/picturede...icturenumber=1
http://jenisys.com/fkr/rally/stpr_99/stpr99_2.jpg

Not so typical for us in the states, but a commonplace for Rally Argentina or what was the Safari Rally.


Wow, that would be something to see in the California desert in summertime!

Oh, wait. Didn't we see something like that at Rim last year?
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Old 05-13-2004, 04:23 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by horatio102


mmmmmkay yeaah.

Next time I'm going to bust out a stopwatch and clock him because his accelleration down the front stretch seemed to be about as fast as Burke's.

A really well built pgt wrx can almost keep up with a group N car ...........they can use as much boost as they can shoot threw that restrictor ..........they can use all of the group N diffs and other little tricks .............. Verdier isnt cheating hes just a really good driver in a very well built car

Last edited by WRXMaster; 05-13-2004 at 05:01 AM.
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Old 05-13-2004, 08:56 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mako
Well, the almighty John has spoken! I'm shocked, SHOCKED! you weren't there to co-drive, as I'm sure your car would have been victorious simply because John Felstead was in the vehicle...

Tell us what makes a good co-driver...a quick google search didn't turn up much record of your WRC wins...

I'm sure you meant well by that statement, but it made you sound a bit of a tall poppy...
Where do i mention me or my ability to win at Rim in anything Mako? It wasnt in reference to winning anything at all. What are you so SHOCKED about?

I met you at Rim last year didnt I? If so i am suprised at your tone in this post, especially as you havnt a clue what i said to Jason meant.
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Old 05-13-2004, 02:35 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by WRXMaster
they can use all of the group N diffs and other little tricks ..............
That is not true. If the car comes with an active diff you can keep it, but you can't retrofit them. So an STi 6MT+DCCD+Suretrac in a WRX would not be ok for PGT.

Glenn
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Old 05-13-2004, 02:47 PM   #70
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Aren't ECU choices open --AS LONG AS-- they plug into the factory harness? In the case of an impreza, get a plug and play aftermarket ECU and you can program to your hearts content your fuel, timing, and boost maps... very handy if the car is in the right hands.
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Old 05-13-2004, 03:58 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn Wallace
That is not true. If the car comes with an active diff you can keep it, but you can't retrofit them. So an STi 6MT+DCCD+Suretrac in a WRX would not be ok for PGT.

Glenn
You can use the sti diffs in a pgt car ..................I can stick it in my little rs ........but it would be pointless because I have no power ......... Tranny you cant touch
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Old 05-13-2004, 04:11 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jgrahn555
Aren't ECU choices open --AS LONG AS-- they plug into the factory harness? In the case of an impreza, get a plug and play aftermarket ECU and you can program to your hearts content your fuel, timing, and boost maps... very handy if the car is in the right hands.
Good question. Glenn, what do you think? By the way, I'm sorry I didn't catch up with you at Rim. Had I known you were there with the ALCAN crew I'd have definitely looked you up.

Abel
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Old 05-13-2004, 05:03 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jgrahn555
Aren't ECU choices open --AS LONG AS-- they plug into the factory harness? In the case of an impreza, get a plug and play aftermarket ECU and you can program to your hearts content your fuel, timing, and boost maps... very handy if the car is in the right hands.
No, PGT doesnt allow for changes of the factory ECU, you are only allowed to alter boost and fueling control acording to the rules, which means you cant change ignition control system or ignition mapping.

This is why a groupN engine should be producing a lot more torque than PGT, because under groupN rules you can alter all parameters and also replace the ECU with an aftermarket item running ALS etc. If a PGT car is producing the same performance as a groupN car in a straight line drag i would be tempted to look a little closer at that car.
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Old 05-13-2004, 05:09 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally posted by WRXMaster
You can use the sti diffs in a pgt car ..................I can stick it in my little rs ........but it would be pointless because I have no power ......... Tranny you cant touch
What glenn means i think, is you have to retain the diff setup for that model of car, for example the WRX has a diferent type of gearbox centre diff design to the WRX and doesnt have any active control systems. To install the STi DCCD system you would need to physically modify the gearbox and install aditional wiring which wouldnt be legal IMHO. The use of LSD's is free though, so you can install a plated LSD from a groupN car for example. Gear ratios have to be retained though, so if you go installing TypeRA or Spec C gear and diff ratios into a PGT car that will be illegal.
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Old 05-13-2004, 05:14 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally posted by johnfelstead
No, PGT doesnt allow for changes of the factory ECU, you are only allowed to alter boost and fueling control acording to the rules, which means you cant change ignition control system or ignition mapping.

This is why a groupN engine should be producing a lot more torque than PGT, because under groupN rules you can alter all parameters and also replace the ECU with an aftermarket item running ALS etc. If a PGT car is producing the same performance as a groupN car in a straight line drag i would be tempted to look a little closer at that car.
John,

I've been curious about this. How do you alter boost and fueling without re-flashing the ECU or installing hardware? Is an ECU re-flash legal? Sorry for the silly questions, I'm away from my printed copy of the Performance Rally Rules and the online version is currently unavailable.

Regards,
Abel
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