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Old 05-13-2004, 04:14 PM   #76
akuhner
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It's simple in the rule book, PGT diffs are open. Period, that's all it says! Adding an active diff would problably require modifcations to the transmission, which would make it illegal. But the main point is that you can put what ever diff you can cram into your stock drivetrain...

Regarding Verdier's speed, isn't it funny how accusations (which may or may not have been in jest) fly when someone in a lesser car beats the better cars? We all know that in rally there are an unlimited number of possible reasons he could have beat guys in better cars with similar talent. One simple mistake could have cost Workum the 3 minutes Verdier beat him by - it could have been a spin, or a flat tire, or dust delays.

That said, I do think Verdier is damn fast to get a 3 minute lead on an Open class car, but you have to see my point! You can't make judgements like that based on almost 2.5 hours of flat out racing over rough terrain. It would be different if you were comparing lap times at a track of two cars with the same driver and found a 2% speed difference (that's what Verdier's lead equates to).

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Last edited by akuhner; 05-13-2004 at 04:26 PM.
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Old 05-13-2004, 04:22 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally posted by Car #187
It's simple in the rule book, PGT diffs are open. Period, that's all it says! Adding an active diff would problably require modifcations to the transmission, which would make it illegal. But the main point is that you can put what ever diff you can cram into your stock drivetrain...
the DCCD centre diff wont fit in a stock WRX tranny, thats the point glenn is making i think.
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Old 05-13-2004, 04:26 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally posted by Car #187
It's simple in the rule book, PGT diffs are open. Period, that's all it says! Adding an active diff would problably require modifcations to the transmission, which would make it illegal. But the main point is that you can put what ever diff you can cram into your stock drivetrain...
Except perhaps in terms of reliability, putting a plate rear diff in a WRX is not going to make a huge difference.

When he said "Group N diffs" I assumed he meant the important bit, the center diff.

Also, I don't think you could put an R180 sized rear in a WRX, that would also be illegal.

It is PRODUCTION GT, not Open GT.
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Old 05-13-2004, 04:30 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn Wallace

Also, I don't think you could put an R180 sized rear in a WRX, that would also be illegal.

It is PRODUCTION GT, not Open GT.
Of course not! That wouldn't fit in your stock drive train! I didn't think I had to specify that I meant you'd have to fit it into your stock rear diff casing... I think we all agree here...
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Old 05-13-2004, 04:31 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sergeant_V
John,

I've been curious about this. How do you alter boost and fueling without re-flashing the ECU or installing hardware? Is an ECU re-flash legal? Sorry for the silly questions, I'm away from my printed copy of the Performance Rally Rules and the online version is currently unavailable.

Regards,
Abel
You can reflash the ECU leaving the ignition maps as they were, yet still alter the boost and fuel settings. All parameters are independantly changed using EcuTek software.

Personally i think the rules for PGT on this are stupid and it would be much easier to keep a level playing field and reduce contention if they freed up the ignition mapping too. But as the rules stand right now you cant change ignition.

So reflashing is legal, as long as you dont alter the ignition maps.
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Old 05-13-2004, 04:33 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally posted by johnfelstead
You can reflash the ECU leaving the ignition maps as they were, yet still alter the boost and fuel settings. All parameters are independantly changed using EcuTek software.

Personally i think the rules for PGT on this are stupid and it would be much easier to keep a level playing field and reduce contention if they freed up the ignition mapping too. But as the rules stand right now you cant change ignition.

So reflashing is legal, as long as you dont alter the ignition maps.
That is good to know. Thanks!

Abel
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Old 05-13-2004, 04:42 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kha0S
Four letters for you: STPR.

/Andrew

What is your point? The water crossing at STPR gets cancelled if the water is too deep (I think more than 6 inches?) It was cancelled last year, which just confirms what John was saying

STPR 02'


I think it would have been better if they made the lanes wider, not just for safety, but to allow the cars to slide more and hang it out, would have been more entertaining. Perhaps some more smaller jumps and more hairpin turns to juice it up a bit. They also need the lane swap like in the WRC superspecials.

The water in the splash was nasty, mixed with that sand and clay, stained my cloths and made a mess of the cameras, doh!
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Old 05-13-2004, 05:14 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally posted by Car #187

Regarding Verdier's speed, isn't it funny how accusations (which may or may not have been in jest) fly when someone in a lesser car beats the better cars? We all know that in rally there are an unlimited number of possible reasons he could have beat guys in better cars with similar talent. One simple mistake could have cost Workum the 3 minutes Verdier beat him by - it could have been a spin, or a flat tire, or dust delays.

That said, I do think Verdier is damn fast to get a 3 minute lead on an Open class car, but you have to see my point! You can't make judgements like that based on almost 2.5 hours of flat out racing over rough terrain. It would be different if you were comparing lap times at a track of two cars with the same driver and found a 2% speed difference (that's what Verdier's lead equates to).

Alex

My comments regarding Verdier's speed are based upon me watching several of the front runners head down that front stretch. It has nothing to do with the overall times, because I very well know that dkill and luck play into it more over the long haul. However, his speed appeared to be as fast as Burke's Evo, and faster than Richard's grp N car down the front stretch of the super special. What really makes it interesting is the 1/4 mile section at Oregon Trail, where Verdier pulled a 16.3, a full 2 seconds slower than Richard. I'll let everyone draw their own conclusions on that.

I don't think that there's any doubt that Stephan is a good driver, but
Quote:
If a PGT car is producing the same performance as a groupN car in a straight line drag i would be tempted to look a little closer at that car.
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Old 05-13-2004, 05:39 PM   #84
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Quote:
However, his speed appeared to be as fast as Burke's Evo, and faster than Richard's grp N car down the front stretch of the super special. What really makes it interesting is the 1/4 mile section at Oregon Trail, where Verdier pulled a 16.3, a full 2 seconds slower than Richard. I'll let everyone draw their own conclusions on that.
"Appears" is a strong word. big power slides with lots of revving and popping and bang bang appear to be faster, but it seldom is.

As for those quater mile times, a lot of drivers down in Oregon had the mentality of "it's not worth it to break the car on this quarter mile, so what's the point of going crazy, doing a good clutch drop, and banging gears through the .25?"

I agree. And knowing that there is a lot of rally to go enticed the level-headed drivers to just take it easy down the QM.

John Lanes volvo pulls a 13 in the QM, spinning his tires almost all the way. I'll let you draw your own conclusions on that.
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Old 05-13-2004, 06:28 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mopho
The water in the splash was nasty, mixed with that sand and clay, stained my cloths and made a mess of the cameras, doh!
It helps if you actually get out of the way of the splash.

-Ryan
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Old 05-13-2004, 06:33 PM   #86
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yes but the volvo isn't pgt.
I know other drivers were taking it easy on the 1/4, yet still turned times in quite a bit faster.
All I know is that the pgt car appeared to be faster. You didn't seer what I did.
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Old 05-13-2004, 06:55 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally posted by johnfelstead
the DCCD centre diff wont fit in a stock WRX tranny, thats the point glenn is making i think.
A while ago he posted that hes running an sti center diff ............. I dont run a wrx so I really dont pay attention to what they do ................but from talking to some experienced rally drivers ......they all say a well built pgt wrx is almost = to a decent GN car .........
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Old 05-13-2004, 07:01 PM   #88
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Not even close engine and gearbox wise to a good groupN car. You cant make 535 Nm of torque @ 3250 rpm without playing with the ignition and a whole lot else including diferent ECU.

STi centre diff doesnt mean DCCD, there are uprated VC STi centre diff units, one of those is legal.

Last edited by johnfelstead; 05-13-2004 at 07:07 PM.
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Old 05-13-2004, 07:07 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally posted by ricochet
It helps if you actually get out of the way of the splash.

-Ryan
Well, I did align myself to where the previous splash's had ended, and I stood in the dry spot, figured at worst I would get a little wet, but then Doug Shepard came through and I got soaked-Darn the SRT-4 wins again

wheres the pic?
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Old 05-13-2004, 07:09 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mopho
They also need the lane swap like in the WRC superspecials.
I thought that's what the ramp trailer thingy was there for. One would jump over the other.

Pete
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Old 05-13-2004, 07:12 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally posted by bjorn240
I guess my point is, I think putting up a round-bale chicane in the middle of Wilson Mills will do more for our collective safety than any change to the SSS at Rim.
Wilson Mills is like a 15 mile long drag strip. Aside from the one bridge, it's like the worst stage ever to photograph also.

Pete
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Old 05-13-2004, 07:19 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pete 97 GS-T
Wilson Mills is like a 15 mile long drag strip. Aside from the one bridge, it's like the worst stage ever to photograph also.

Pete
www.onalimbracing.com
That sounds, um, quite unsafe. I would think that as a competitor you'd want that broken down into a LOT more smaller chunks, with say 60 or so chicanes to keep speeds under 100mph or so.
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Old 05-13-2004, 07:22 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally posted by horatio102
I know other drivers were taking it easy on the 1/4, yet still turned times in quite a bit faster.
So maybe he was taking it even easier than them.

Plus trying to judge power based on ETs from a single drag race is silly. Richard had a better ET than some of the Open class cars. Does that mean his car is making more power? The mere fact that the quickest car was .7 seconds ahead of the 2nd car but trapped over 2 mph slower should also tell you something about how good of a comparison ETs make.

Plus everyone knows that the SRT-4 is the fastest car ever and it ran a 16.6.
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Old 05-13-2004, 07:34 PM   #94
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You're either missing my point or focusing on other issues just to irritate me. Quit it.

Fact of the matter is that pgt cars should be 227hp plus opened up exhaust, plus boost, plus fuel, minus 32mm restrictor, and they shouldn't be nearly as fast as a grp N car which is plus exhaust, boost, fuel, timing, with the same 32mm restrictor. And they shouldn't be nearly as fast as an open class car with the what? 40mm restrictor?
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Old 05-13-2004, 07:58 PM   #95
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Give it TypeRA gearing and a 4.444:1 diff ratio and it will fly upto 100MPH, even with a PGT legal engine. My own RA with 300BHP/lbft would wipe the floor with Impreza's using the normal gear ratios that had 100BHP+ more. Mine did 30-90 just using 3rd and 4th gear in 6.6 seconds to give you some idea of how RA gearing affects acceleration, 0-60 was under 4 seconds. But that wouldnt be legal in PGT so no doubt gear ratios wouldnt be played with.
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Old 05-13-2004, 08:02 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally posted by horatio102
That sounds, um, quite unsafe. I would think that as a competitor you'd want that broken down into a LOT more smaller chunks, with say 60 or so chicanes to keep speeds under 100mph or so.
Fastest average speeds for Wilson Mills in 2003 were ~85 mph. (12.4 miles in under 9 minutes).

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Old 05-13-2004, 08:52 PM   #97
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for the people who think I'm cheating. If you look at my second super stage, i was pair with Morbely, who run a wrx PGT. We were exactly the same at the jump. ( i guess he must be cheating as well) Last 2 super stage I was pair with Plesk (open class) he had at least 2 car lenght at the jump on me. ( i guess I must be sandbaging). By the way if you think we were too fast, we should been even faster. We had a off in stage 5, a flat half way in stage 6, broken front shock in stage 7, and we just cruise in stage13, and 14. we were about 30 second slower in the second run of this stages.
My point is people can't admit they are slower. We got beat by Morbely in 3 stages this week end. Do you see me bichting about it. No he was better then me. End of the story. I have been hearing about this cheating story since I started rallying with my Mazda 323 gtx. I was the 4th howner of that car and nobody had done any result with it. We finish 2nd overall in our first rally ever. first thing people said "he is cheating" Every time we would win a race, the cheating crap would come up. I don't like to loose. But when it happen i'll try to look at the obvious reason. Maybe that person is better than me. I'm not new to racing. I'm new to rally. I don't like to brag, but here is a little something about me. I did a driver seach (Brigeston) in 93, they tested 1200 driver all over the us and Canada. I won it.
And for the people who think my car was really fast in the back strech of the super stage. Here is my secret, NITROS. (Hoops!! I just realise it's not legal.)
I'm sorry if I sound like a jerk, but I'm getting tired of this. I work my butt off all week long to have the best car I can, all my money and more goes to rally, and when people say you are cheating it make me look at the all thing and think. Is it really worth it?
About the diff, here is what my car has. Front LSD by KAAZ, Center STI viscous, Rear lsd by QUAIFE. Stock gear box.

Stephan Verdier
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Old 05-13-2004, 09:06 PM   #98
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reer. saucer of milk, table for two.

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Old 05-13-2004, 09:14 PM   #99
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From the specialstage website regarding the jump: (there are some good discussions going on there if you care to check it out).

Ray Hocker
Member since 3-28-02
211 posts 05-12-04, 01:41 PM (PST)

2. "To jump or not to jump."
In response to message #0

To set the record straight, we did not knowingly or intentionally make any change to the jump between the first and second runs of the super special stage. However, I am certain it did change due to several factors. First, forty cars passed over it in the previous run digging up and softening the approach to the jump. Secondly, we continued to water and run the road grader over the course to removing ruts from the first run. We also widened several corners for safety and to improve the drivability or the course.
Before the grading began, I asked Kengo Takahashi (the stage commander) to make sure the jump was not changed. Our grading crew was also given this instruction. I inspected it myself prior to the second running and I could see no change that was visible to the eye.

My integrity as an organizer would never allow me to knowingly or purposefully make a change that would increase the severity or danger from the jump without notifying the competitors. I would never put a competitor (or their car) at risk in this way.

With that said, I did have the jump flattened before the third running of the stage. I did this with knowledge and agreement of the SCCA National Steward. I chose to do it for safety reasons. Burke's problem was a factor but the real reason was the height that Jim Pierce reached in his truck. I saw this as a real danger to the other car next to him. The SCCA Steward and I both agreed that telling people in writing that we were flattening the jump could put drivers at greater risk because they might read it as permission to go flat out over the reshaped jump.

I feel confident that the "big air" some people got was from a combination of inadvertant changes to the course and other factors. On the first stage of the rally everyone took it easy. On Saturday, some pushed harder and hit the jump going much faster. On Friday, Stephan (see photo from Friday on USA forum) flew every bit as high and as far as Burke.

I was sad to see anyone break on the super special. We know the design and execution of the super special stage was not perfect. We learned a lot and will to make many improvements next year.


Ray Hocker
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Old 05-13-2004, 09:23 PM   #100
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Personally i would be flattered Stephan and would welcome anyone to protest me. As long as you are running legally, especially in terms of engine management, compresion ratio, turbo and gearing you have nothing to fear. These are relatively easy to check should that be required. If it were me i would protest myself and get it over with.

I can understand your frustration but i am sure you can also see how people can look at your results and scratch their heads, they are outstanding for a PGT spec car. Pity i havnt seen you drive myself as it would allow me to have a personal opinion.

Excellent post from Ray.
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