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Old 05-17-2004, 02:01 PM   #26
bemani
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Default Re: Gronholm's win faces post-race threat

Quote:
Originally posted by Jfrankon
DID YOU FANS SEE THIS!!!!! WHAT A TURN OF EVENTS FOR SUBARU!!! CHECK IT OUT!!

Until then the result will remain provisional. If the four cars are excluded from the event, then Fordís Markko Martin will be handed the win and a potential 19-point lead in the driversí championship standings. The Subarus of reigning world champion Petter Solberg and team-mate Mikko Hirvonen would also be promoted to the podium.

Huh? 19 point lead????
If it is true ... Markko = 36, Petter = 31
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Old 05-17-2004, 08:13 PM   #27
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If it goes down it would be too funny.
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Old 05-18-2004, 01:32 AM   #28
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In one way, I almost hope it DOESN'T go down, simply for the sake of Gronholm and his team. He's been SO pissed this entire season with the crappy performance of the 307, and I felt he kind of deserved this one after all his troubles of late.

If you thought he was pissed about the gearbox, can you imagine if they strip his win?! I think it'll further infuriate him, disappoint the team, and cause even more tension. Hate to see a top driver like that get the shaft...

of course, I'm still a Subaru fan at heart, so to see Hiro and Petter move up, I can't say I wouldn't be pleased
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Old 05-18-2004, 01:50 AM   #29
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I would rather see it decided on the road and not the court room. Marcus deserved the win. Change the car for next time if they must.

Abel, see you on the Peak! Will you be racing or spectating?
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Old 05-18-2004, 07:52 AM   #30
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If the car isnt legal, they should be excluded. Rules should be adheared to and aplied without emotion, otherwise you have anarchy.

It sounds a simple thing, if its not legal just swap the water pump, but usually there is a good reason for them to change something if they have indeed done that. In Fords case they had to redesign the whole engine assembly location to make the water pump fit as the stock pump hit the chassis, so what sounds like a small task could involve a total redesign under the bonnet.
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Old 05-18-2004, 08:48 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by johnfelstead
If the car isnt legal, they should be excluded. Rules should be adheared to and aplied without emotion, otherwise you have anarchy.
Agreed, the rules are the rules. However, if they did break them, intentionally or not, the disqualifications wouldn't be a good thing even if it does mean Petter advances. Even if they didn't mean to cheat, it's not good for the sport - races should be settled on the course.

Do you guys blindly support any Subaru driver or do you really think Petter is the man to win the title this year? Petter is more than talented enough to pull it off, but so are Loeb and Martin.

Alex
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Old 05-18-2004, 09:10 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by Car #187
Do you guys blindly support any Subaru driver or do you really think Petter is the man to win the title this year? Petter is more than talented enough to pull it off, but so are Loeb and Martin.
True, I'd say the title fight is between Solberg, Loeb, Martin & Gronholm.

This season is quite odd, as Burns & McRae are out, Hyundai & Skoda are delayed (though not usually in contention for anything), and Mitsubishi can't build a rally car to finish a race. For the first half of this season we are really short on drivers. While the ones not running aren't big names (although either Burns or McRae would be running great this year), They would be grabbing points in the standing, taking a few from each of the top drivers. I'd say Gilles Panizzi would be taking points if the car would run, and Hyundai & Skoda would grab a couple lower point finishes each race.

Tom
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Old 05-18-2004, 09:18 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by rupertberr
I would rather see it decided on the road and not the court room. Marcus deserved the win. Change the car for next time if they must.

Abel, see you on the Peak! Will you be racing or spectating?
Victor and I hope to be racing! He's still working out the deal.

Abel
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Old 05-18-2004, 10:04 AM   #34
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That would be a lot of points handed out to privateers if the French cars are DQ'd.
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Old 05-18-2004, 12:15 PM   #35
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WOW, thats a crappy turn of events for Marcus. I was happy (even though I'm a Subaru fan) that he won the rally, he really deserved it after all his misfortunes with the car.
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Old 05-18-2004, 12:25 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sergeant_V
Victor and I hope to be racing! He's still working out the deal.
Excellent. Let us know if you need any help up here. We have plenty of volunteers who would work for a beer.
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Old 05-18-2004, 07:01 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Car #187
Agreed, the rules are the rules. However, if they did break them, intentionally or not, the disqualifications wouldn't be a good thing even if it does mean Petter advances. Even if they didn't mean to cheat, it's not good for the sport - races should be settled on the course.
You cant have your cake and eat it. Strickly aplied rules are the bedrock of any competition that has any value. If they get disqualified for illegal cars that is good for the sport because it shows it has legit rule enforcers, if they dont get disqualified and the cars are illegal that would lose the sport credibility and damage it long term.
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Old 05-18-2004, 09:25 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by johnfelstead
You cant have your cake and eat it. Strickly aplied rules are the bedrock of any competition that has any value. If they get disqualified for illegal cars that is good for the sport because it shows it has legit rule enforcers, if they dont get disqualified and the cars are illegal that would lose the sport credibility and damage it long term.
Agreed. However, I do feel bad for the drivers/co-drivers if this goes through. They gave it their all, and I'm sure they had no previous knowledge that their water pumps weren't legit.

On the flip side...I would love to see Gronholm blow a gasket! He is a great driver, but his attitude and demeanor suck the big one. He is the absolute worst spokesperson for Peugeot and the WRC. One serious stick is up his arse!

Last edited by Jfrankon; 05-19-2004 at 08:24 AM.
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Old 05-19-2004, 08:46 AM   #39
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Yeah I feel bad for the drivers, BUT I'm sure the same post race checks go on after every event.....So why did these illegal water pumps end up on the cars in just this rally? Seems kinda odd to me, I could see at maybe the first rally of the season but we are getting close to the midpoint of things now. If they were illegal regardless of if the drivers knew or not, they should be excluded. the teams should know better then trying to do that!

And I agree with john, the rules are the rules. They don't apply to just some parts or teams. Every other team used the proper parts what makes them so special?
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Old 05-19-2004, 09:33 AM   #40
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Am I totally retarded, or do I remember Immerstat Star of the Rally being one of Peugot's mechanics for "fixing the over heating problem of the car by replacing the water pump??"

I may be TOTALLY off base on this, but I remember specifically the "Star of the Rally" being a Peugot mechanic - that I'm positive about. But I swore it was given to him for solving the mystery of the overheating.

These teams no better than to try and cheat, so it is MY "theory" that the water pump thing happened purely by accident. As was mentioned, the four cars that are under investigation are all virtually the same engine configuration. Can you guys see some mechanic say, "Hey - this is why it's overheating - do this to fix it" - all of them do it, and voila: at the HIGHEST HEAT RALLY yet this year, where heat will undoubtedly be an issue, the cars run flawlessly.

Likewise, I can only imagine some person saying, "Yo ding dong - we can't change the water pump - that's in the rules..." Therefore, I think it has to be one of two things:
1. They replaced the water pump as an experiment, didn't get a chance to replace it back, somebody either forgot about it, or they almost thought they could get away with it since it's not that big of a deal.

OR
(I like this bit of random thought better...)
2. Some mechanic MODIFIED the homologated water pump successfully, and ran it, and it WORKED BETTER. Thus, the original fear is that "Oh no - this is a different water pump" but perhaps somewhere in the rules, teams are allowed to MODIFY items such as these to adapt them to work better?

This is just random utterance of stupidity coming from me, so flame away!

We'll find out the real truth of it today!!!
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Old 05-19-2004, 12:28 PM   #41
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The Peugeot mechanic got the award for solving their past power steering problem (maybe extra hose clamps?!!? )
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Old 05-19-2004, 12:58 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by CirrusWRX
Am I totally retarded, or do I remember Immerstat Star of the Rally being one of Peugot's mechanics for "fixing the over heating problem of the car by replacing the water pump??"

Peugeot's mechanics did get the Star of the Rally award, though the reason stated was because of their work solving the power steering problems. Or at least that's what the article on wrc.com says: http://www.wrc.com/News.aspx?PO_ID=3...lse&lang=en_GB
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Old 05-19-2004, 01:39 PM   #43
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Worldrallynews says that the FIA did not certified the results from Cyprus today. Peugeot has been told to appear at a "meeting" on May 26 (one week from today). Citreon wasn't asked to appear, so it sounds like it's only the Peugeots who are under question now.
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Old 05-19-2004, 03:01 PM   #44
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Ahh yes - how stupid of me to forget the power steering problems. As if Gronholm's facial expression isn't tense enough while driving, when he was running w/o power steering, THAT was a sight to be seen!!
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Old 05-24-2004, 03:19 PM   #45
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Water Pump Update: Citroen is cleared, Wednesday the results for Peugot will be announced.

Tom
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Old 05-24-2004, 10:51 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by jesse370
So why did these illegal water pumps end up on the cars in just this rally? Seems kinda odd to me, I could see at maybe the first rally of the season but we are getting close to the midpoint of things now.
Because Cyprus is a HOT & S-L-O-W Rally that tests the cooling systems to the limit!

The Cars are spec'd to each event, Cyprus requires special attention to engine cooling

in contrast a rally like Finland is blinding fast so plenty of air gets into the radiator thus cooling is not as big an issue.

Actually the cars get plenty of air period in Finland
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Old 05-24-2004, 11:09 PM   #47
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Found this on another forum I frequent


"Marcus had the aluminium part of the waterpump(not the other 3, who had plastic...)

He says that Peugeot tested engine part during the Cyprus rally on Marcus car, and that the new part would have had broken the plastic waterpump, so they have put an aluminium part instead in the waterpump!!!

If it's true, Peugeot did really a stupid thing!!!!
They should have tested the new engine cooling part and the aluminium part in their extra-testing rather than in rally, and then made homologated the part for the next rallies!!!"

It seems to be somthing with the material of part of the waterpump.

Another credible source said both Pug's will be DQ'ed on wednesday
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Old 05-25-2004, 12:00 PM   #48
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From World Rally News:

Impeller material may settle Cyprus

Peugeot has declined to make any official comment, but reliable sources believe that the works 307s were fitted with different water pump impellers than the works Xsaras and that the difference could hand the Cyprus Rally to Sebastien Loeb and Citroen.

Loeb finished second on stage times to Marcus Gronholm and Peugeot in Cyprus. The results remain provisional, pending another meeting of the stewards to discuss the legality of the water pumps on May 26. It seems that while the Xsaras had metal impellers, the 307s used plastic. Both cars use the XU7 engine. World Rally Car rules stipulate standard water pumps. Peugeot must therefore demonstrate that the impellers were standard or risk exclusion.

A number of unsubstantiated theories are circulating. They include the possibility of a paperwork error, in which the Peugeots used a standard pump, but not the one specified in the homologation papers. The extraordinary possibility has also been raised that while standard XU7 water pumps have metal, all replacements are fitted with plastic impellers. If so, this might constitute a defence: homologation rules provide for VF options, or the use of different parts from different suppliers. If both pumps are deemed to be standard, the stewards face an awkward decision.

Citroen has made no formal comment, but a source said that no specification changes are planned for the Acropolis Rally next week, adding weight to the theory that Citroen will be officially cleared on Wednesday.
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Old 05-25-2004, 01:43 PM   #49
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Old 05-25-2004, 02:36 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by Top_Dog
http://rally.racing-live.com/en/head...24170105.shtml
It has been said this news was premature due to no "Official" statment one way or the other from FIA...however I think it will be true
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