Toe out - where and why?

anti.team · 05-17-2004, 12:14 PM

I've been reading up on allignment spects that will be ideal for autocross. I think I'm gonna try for -1.5 deg cront camber, -1 deg rear.

What I'm not sure about is toe out. I know that toe out will increase tire wear. People say that toe out in the rear will help the car rotate better, which I understand. I've also read that some toe out in the front will help with turn in. Is this true? I don't really understand why this would work. The way that I see it is that the outside tire is going to be loaded when turning and if this tire is pointing out more it would hurt turn in. What's wrong with my logic?

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Storm · 05-17-2004, 04:34 PM

The way I understand it, the front end is weighted relatively equal before you enter the turn(say, under braking). When you initiate the turn, the inside wheel will pull you in just a tad harder, giving the outside wheel some weight. That little extra effort by the inside wheel makes the car turn in crisper.

Also, during the turn, any weight the inside wheel has is helping to pull the front end in. Scrubbing as you go around. There are benefits of "ackerman effect" that also occur that toe out may help. I have a basic understanding of Ackerman, but not enough to try and explain/justify benefits of altering the amounts.

The problem with your logic is that you are (in my opinion) right. The outside wheel is doing most of the work. When you add toe out to the front, the outside wheel is not pointing where you want the car to go (as much) and any benefit you get in crispness when you first initiate the turn is gone once the outside gets weighted. Having the outside wheel pointed closer to where you want to go will pull the car in through the rest of the turn and through the exit.

I'm no suspension guru....I tried running 1/16 toe out for many seasons only because that was "the hot autocross alignment". When I tried running with zero toe up front, my times improved. I felt the car work further through the turns instead of pushing when I applied throttle.

When I started running zero toe up front and toe out in the rear....boy howdy.....the car is a friggin blast on course! It doesn't like rainy streets though....I have to make that adjustment between street and race duty to save tire wear and potentially body integrity if it rains.

Jay Storm
There's a fine line between "hobby and "mental illness"......

05-17-2004, 12:14 PM	#1
anti.team Scooby Specialist Member#: 55812 Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Warren, MI Vehicle: 2002 WRX - Silver Warren:Throw your dubs up	Toe out - where and why? I've been reading up on allignment spects that will be ideal for autocross. I think I'm gonna try for -1.5 deg cront camber, -1 deg rear. What I'm not sure about is toe out. I know that toe out will increase tire wear. People say that toe out in the rear will help the car rotate better, which I understand. I've also read that some toe out in the front will help with turn in. Is this true? I don't really understand why this would work. The way that I see it is that the outside tire is going to be loaded when turning and if this tire is pointing out more it would hurt turn in. What's wrong with my logic? * Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

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05-17-2004, 04:34 PM	#2
Storm Scooby Guru Member#: 5218 Join Date: Mar 2001 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: SAUL'S Motorsports Vehicle: 96L Most Over- Developed Beater	The way I understand it, the front end is weighted relatively equal before you enter the turn(say, under braking). When you initiate the turn, the inside wheel will pull you in just a tad harder, giving the outside wheel some weight. That little extra effort by the inside wheel makes the car turn in crisper. Also, during the turn, any weight the inside wheel has is helping to pull the front end in. Scrubbing as you go around. There are benefits of "ackerman effect" that also occur that toe out may help. I have a basic understanding of Ackerman, but not enough to try and explain/justify benefits of altering the amounts. The problem with your logic is that you are (in my opinion) right. The outside wheel is doing most of the work. When you add toe out to the front, the outside wheel is not pointing where you want the car to go (as much) and any benefit you get in crispness when you first initiate the turn is gone once the outside gets weighted. Having the outside wheel pointed closer to where you want to go will pull the car in through the rest of the turn and through the exit. I'm no suspension guru....I tried running 1/16 toe out for many seasons only because that was "the hot autocross alignment". When I tried running with zero toe up front, my times improved. I felt the car work further through the turns instead of pushing when I applied throttle. When I started running zero toe up front and toe out in the rear....boy howdy.....the car is a friggin blast on course! It doesn't like rainy streets though....I have to make that adjustment between street and race duty to save tire wear and potentially body integrity if it rains. Jay Storm There's a fine line between "hobby and "mental illness"......