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Old 05-30-2000, 07:39 PM   #1
Andre Vandenberg
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Lightbulb Putting the EJ20/22 turbo vs EJ25 turbo debate to rest!

Ok, how many of you guys blowing the horn of the "closed deck" motors have actually had the misfortune to run their cars with both the EJ20 or 22 as well as EJ25 turbo motors?

After this weekend, I can say that I am now a member of that club. And thus far not a very happy member. In all fairness, I must say that I still have some fine tuning to do, hopefully before Trey's open house this weekend. Here is what was changed from the EJ 25 set up to the EJ 22 set up:
1. Third Gen. RX-7 fuel pump replaced stock suby pump.
2. Cobb tuning adjustable fuel pressure regulator replaced restrictive stock one.
3. EGT gauge installed.
4. ACS 2.5" cat back open pipe replaced restrictive STI muffler set up with 2.5" mid section.
5. EJ 22T short block matched to EJ 25 DOHC cyl. heads etc, etc, etc

My initial impressions:
1. Do not EVER attempt to do this on your garage floor. Although, I am getting good at this….. I had the motor on the floor in 35 min!!
2. Do not EVER attempt such a stupid idea ever again.
3. Talk about turbo lag…… jeez Louise!!!
4. My car has gone from a rocket ship in roll-ons between 60 and 80 to another fairly fast little Japanese car.
5. As soon as my EJ 25 is built, this one goes up for sale. (Probably in the Fall, I hate to work on anything outside when the temp is over 85 degrees, or under 50 degrees)

I must in all fairness say that I am only boosting 0.5 bar with the EJ22, and was boosting 0.4 bar with the EJ25. But, until proven otherwise, I have to step squarely into Shiv's corner, and defend the lowly EJ 25 as THE motor to Turbo. (Not that I wasn't a believer before, those who know me, know that I have always kicked against changing out the EJ 25 motor, just because it wasn't a so called turbo motor), Sure, I can crank the boost to 18 lbs. But with a little work so can the EJ 25. The only time that we will have to worry about closed deck vs. open deck Subys, is when some fool like Adam starts to pump the equivalent of 2 to 3 bar. ANYTHING that you are going to drive on the street, using street gas, can not run high enough cylinder pressures to make the EJ 25 cylinders turn into "boost bells".

I hope that this gets a lot more of you off of the fence, and spending your money on turbo kits for your EJ 25's, rather than expensive and unnecessary "transplants". Believe me…… A well sorted EJ 25 turbo is no slouch, and I will go out on a limb and say that there are VERY few "tuned" WRX's in the rest of the world, that will post the numbers we will with the EJ 25's…..

André

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Old 05-30-2000, 08:00 PM   #2
MPREZYA
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Andre you still using the Minnam setup? That is probably why you notice such lag is the turbo is alot bigger than the one that originally came with it. That and it's still lower compression. I woudl say you should try about 10-12 lbs of boost and see how it goes Tyrmelter is running 14 lbs on just the stock ecu with a t-3 turbo from a Volvo. Also Andre could you answer a question for me since you have torn apart and put the engine back together could you help me out with findig the correct crank and cam sensors as I am having problems with running my ITC(there is an earlier post on it).
Rich
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Old 05-30-2000, 08:10 PM   #3
Andre Vandenberg
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Yes, I'm still running the Minnam set up. Yes, the turbo is a lot bigger than the stock turbo the EJ 22 came with. Boost WILL go up by Friday, and I will keep y'all posted.
I swapped all the sensors off my EJ 25 motor onto the EJ 22, is this what you wanted to know? If not, email me and we can discuss it, any help you need …
Andre
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Old 05-30-2000, 08:12 PM   #4
Impy
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well i dont agree.... im not saying that an EJ25 turbo will suck... im saying i would go with EJ20... this is the reason... for an EJ25 turbo you need to purchase a turbo kit, AFC, FPR... and various guages to tune it.... all that plus labour... the kit it self is 6XXX CDN... plus maybe 2000 CDN for the rest... bringing that to 8XXX CDN...

ok... for the EJ20... u need the engine... turbo, RCU, tranny... which costs about 8000 CDN plus about 1000 CDN labour... bringing that to 9XXX.... yes the transplant is a grand up... but u get another engine and tranny... u can sell it... keep it as a safe bet... stick it in ur wagon... do whatever...
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Old 05-30-2000, 08:17 PM   #5
NickSTi
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Hey someone has been listening to me for once
Money is the big reason for doing the engine swap. It is cheaper believe it or not!
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Old 05-30-2000, 08:26 PM   #6
shiv
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Yeah, and you end up running a used engine with questionable history, making less horsepower with more turbo lag. All this while the arguably better engine sits on your garage floor gathering dust

shiv

[This message has been edited by shiv (edited May 30, 2000).]
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Old 05-30-2000, 08:41 PM   #7
Andre Vandenberg
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I've done it guys, BELIEVE ME..... MY EJ 25 goes back ASAFP. Its worth even 3000 dollars more. Don't be be and turbo your EJ 25.

Andre
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Old 05-30-2000, 08:53 PM   #8
Ver.III
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This debate will never end.....there is too many goods and bads on both sides and everybody is wondering which side to go on. So do what you like.............and find out for yourself..................
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Old 05-30-2000, 09:02 PM   #9
Impy
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hey rich... dunno if u saw this on the other board but... whats the max toe out u can set on stock parts??
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Old 05-30-2000, 09:02 PM   #10
Andre Vandenberg
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That is why we don't ALL like blonds. Taste and likes and dislikes are diffrent for everyone. For me it's a no brainer.
Andre
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Old 05-30-2000, 09:06 PM   #11
Ver.III
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Andre,
Sorry you had all the bad experiences man. I guess I have been fortunate enough not to have any problems with mine......yet.
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Old 05-30-2000, 09:08 PM   #12
TR
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one nasty little sting in the tale is that an EJ20 is going to be tough to find parts for.
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Old 05-30-2000, 09:11 PM   #13
shiv
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It doesn't sound to me as if Andre has had problems with his engine swap. Instead, it just sounds like he's tried both engines and prefers one over the other. The real test, of course, would be if he compared both engines in optimally tuned form. Whatever that may be.

shiv
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Old 05-30-2000, 09:19 PM   #14
Ver.III
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TR,
parts are not hard to find. They are afterall Sube parts. Finding the part numbers would be the hard thing to find since there is no parts book at any dealer here in NA to source out.

shiv,
When I finish all the stuff on my car, maybe we'll compare your car and mine to see how they par up. I think they will be in the same ball park.


[This message has been edited by Ver.III (edited May 30, 2000).]
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Old 05-30-2000, 09:21 PM   #15
Andre Vandenberg
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I have to agree with here. Parts will not be too difficult to get, especialy after next year when the 2.0 GT or WRX or what ever they decide to name it, comes to the US.
Shiv: That is the plan my man, that is the plan.....
If I can be patient enough with this no low end "Honda" motor
Andre

[This message has been edited by Andre Vandenberg (edited May 30, 2000).]
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Old 05-30-2000, 09:56 PM   #16
CNC84
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Parts for the RS take forever to get as well most parts take at least a week to get so that isn't really an issue it's just that Suby parts in general are hard to find.


Chris
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Old 05-30-2000, 10:02 PM   #17
CNC84
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Andre I assume you weren't running an intercooler in the 2.2 and it has been hot as hell Much hotter than 85 heck it was in the 90's in Austin every day this week and talk about humid how does 92% sound this week in Texas so that may have had some signifigance on the lag.

Chris
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Old 05-31-2000, 12:24 AM   #18
Kevin Thomas
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Has anyone ever tried to run the same compression ratio that the EJ25 has in an EJ20 or 22 engine?

My point is that if the EJ20/EJ22 engines are supposed to be more bulletproof than the EJ25, than it should be feasible to run it at the same or slightly higher compression ratio than the EJ25. This way, you would get similar performance which would be questionably safer.
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Old 05-31-2000, 03:01 AM   #19
jason_watkins
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Before everyone jumps on the wagon of bashing the idea of a 2.2L turbo transplant, realize that there are some people running this setup quite successfully.

Primative Racing recently put a 2.2 through punishment that should have destroyed it. Surprisinly, that 2.2 block seems to still be the best one he's got around.

You can get brand spanking new 2.2 blocks for ~2k if you care about used.

After talking with several knowledgeable people, I've become convinced that the 2.2 block with the 2.5's DOHC heads fit to it could turn out 350+ with little to no reduction in reliability.

And comparing a 2.2L running very modest pressures to a 2.5L running not so modest pressures is definatley not fair. Compare them at stock or compare them both aggressively tuned and boosted.

It is likely that the 2.5 will always have more off boost pull.
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Old 05-31-2000, 03:58 AM   #20
Tyrmeltr
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I think it's a matter of development. The known potential of EJ20, and EJ22 is out there. It is the "safe" bet, for those not into experimentation. People like Adam Bloom, Steve S, and Shiv have done a great deal to understand the EJ25's potential. I'm sure there is more to come.

Longeveity is still a concern, but only time will tell that tale. No one, not a soul, can know how long an engine will really last until it breaks. We should start a pool in fact, that would be interesting. hehe

Some news from here in EJ22 heaven. Based on alot of the previous turbo size debates, I'm sticking with a T3, changing the compressor trim, A/R, and turbine housing to one better suited to my EJ22's needs.

I plan on running 14-16psi, when I have the fuel for it. With the proper tuning, I don't think the magic 300h.p. zone will evade me. Besides, once the car is race-only I will be running race gas, and can really have some fun. Like Ver. III said it will probably be running right with the 2.5's.

Personally I think ANY turbo Impreza is very cool thing, and a world-beater in the right hands. I would LOVE to see a top-to-bottom built EJ25. Imagine welding the block, thereby having a closed deck EJ25, with all the internal goodies addressed as well! Talk about a monster motor!

Heck, you could give it the Lancia Delta S4 treatment, by slapping on a s/c and a turbo! The ULTIMATE Impreza engine. A compromise developed exclusively to put this endless debate to rest. rest. Now you're talking! Everyone will be happy except the N/A folk!

Thought I'd have fun with this subject. I don't prefer blondes or brunettes, I prefer women in general. That said, all Impreza's are OK with me.

Later all, and keep your Subies slideways!

Arik Kadosh
98 Impreza Turbo (2.2l)
SPD and Renner tuned
4WD Open ProRally soon!
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Old 05-31-2000, 05:05 AM   #21
adam99rs
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Andre - what turbo are you running? I have driven in a '99 WRX RA(non STI) car while in Japan, and let me tell you, there was zero lag. Just curioous to know, as the stock Legacy turbo is wimpy......much less aggressive, and flows far less cfm's than even the lowly turbo used in the Minnam kit (which is also wimpy by turbo standards....get alook in the wheel inside..puny!.
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Old 05-31-2000, 09:02 AM   #22
slide
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A 2.2 with a 2.5 head. It probably wasn't turbo lag. It was extremely low-low end horsepower. If you put a 2.2 turbo head ona 2.5 block your low end will go through the roof. your top end will suffer. Hence no turbo lag.
I had this discussion about two years ago with a mechanic at a dealership who was trying to get the people at subaru headquarters to give us info on how to make the car faster and how to do it safe...

But then again they probably didn't try it, so maybe they're wrong...
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Old 05-31-2000, 10:03 AM   #23
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I'm with Arik on this one, let's get suppliers making stronger internals for the 2.5, do a little engine work, and bang- super viable turbo engine, Not that it isn't already.

I personally am a fan of the 2.5 turbos, get similiar results, with 92 octane.

Maybe the folks at HKS or wherever would like to address the issues people have the the EJ25 not being all that internally strong.
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Old 05-31-2000, 01:00 PM   #24
ColinL
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Wink

So all these Foresters and Outbacks SOA is selling hand over fist ARE good for something performance-wise... engine donors!
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Old 05-31-2000, 02:45 PM   #25
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Colinl....you're soooo bad!
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