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Old 05-21-2004, 06:15 PM   #1
phattyduck
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Default Strength of internals?

Hey guys, as my user info on the left states, I have a turbo Camry... I wanted to post up pictures of the internals of the motor (not my motor, a friends) so I can get some opinions of the strength of them. I'm not worried about longevity of the motor (if I can get 20-30k miles out of it, I'll be fine) but I would like to avoid blowing it up after a couple thousand miles. Oh yeah, it'll be intercooled soon, and I'm planning on getting real engine management by the time I turn up the boost...

I'm posting here because I trust you guys a bit more than the guys on the Camry boards (yes, there are Camry forums...). They are still stuck asking about indiglos and 'xenon' headlight bulbs.

In case you are wondering, the motor is a 3s-fe. Its a 2.0 liter, iron closed-deck block. 86mmx86mm bore/stroke, 9.3:1 compression, stock 6k redline (I've had it up to 6.5k fine, just no power). I don't know the rod ratio... The block itself is the same as the 3s-gte, which is an MR2 turbo / Celica all-trac motor - its just missing the oil squirters and other little things like that. The head is aluminum with DOHC, 4-valve per cylinder, 22 degree valve angle, setup for power in the 2.5k to 4.5k rpm range. The motor stock has 115hp and 122ft-lbs of torque. If you want anymore info, just ask and I'll see what I can find.

Please let me know what you think!

















More pictures can be found at: http://www.pierreluxury.com/pics/piston/

Check out pics 14-17 for pics of the piston my buddy melted at 10psi, non-intercooled with only a rrfpr for fuel managment. I'm thinking with real engine management, bigger injectors and an intercooler, things would go much better...

Thanks!
Charlie

PS. Yes, I know its not a Subaru... but, like I said, I trust you guys. And hey, its not a Honda!
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Old 05-21-2004, 07:20 PM   #2
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Quote:
PS. Yes, I know its not a Subaru... but, like I said, I trust you guys. And hey, its not a Honda!
One of the best line evAr!
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Old 05-21-2004, 08:29 PM   #3
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One of the best line evAr!
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Old 05-22-2004, 12:08 AM   #4
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In my best guessing mode I would say with the mods you intend to use you can run some decent boost for some time. I would probably keep it at 12 and under though just to be sure. I ran an open deck 1ZZ for over a year at 12-13 PSI (not alot of miles but all very hard ones) and it held up remarkably well, 15PSI(not on purpose) ended it though.

By the way, howdy

You are welcome to stay over anytime you feel like running some sweet arse roads up here in far No Cal!

Rick
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Old 05-22-2004, 12:31 AM   #5
phattyduck
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Quote:
Originally posted by raamaudio
By the way, howdy

You are welcome to stay over anytime you feel like running some sweet arse roads up here in far No Cal!

Rick
Hi Rick!

I'm gonna make it up to the Susanville/Chester area this summer some time, my family has a cabin up there. I'll try to swing by (even though its a couple hours to Shasta)!

Thanks for the thoughts on the Camry. It'll be 'done' someday...

-Charlie
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Old 05-22-2004, 01:05 AM   #6
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Yes, now I remember, you told me about the cabin, my buddy was given a small parcell of land around there somewhere, we are supposed to go check it out one day soon.

I have put owning a subby on hold for awhile but sure getting the bug again!


Rick
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Old 05-22-2004, 01:20 PM   #7
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Default

the strenght of the internals is not something that we can just see from the pictures. The actual size/thickness/material of teh rods and pistons matters alot.

Dont be scared by the open deck design. Lots of turbocharged cars are open deck, and they handle it fine. Obviously it will still be weaker than closed deck, or a guarded/posted deck.

Also, looks like someone has been missing some oil changes. the carmalized pistons/bearings etc, is telltale. Make sure to stay ontop of those, or your gonna have more to worry about than the piston strength.

-Jake
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Old 05-22-2004, 01:20 PM   #8
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the strenght of the internals is not something that we can just see from the pictures. The actual size/thickness/material of teh rods and pistons matters alot.

Dont be scared by the open deck design. Lots of turbocharged cars are open deck, and they handle it fine. Obviously it will still be weaker than closed deck, or a guarded/posted deck.

Also, looks like someone has been missing some oil changes. the carmalized pistons/bearings etc, is telltale. Make sure to stay ontop of those, or your gonna have more to worry about than the piston strength.

-Jake
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Old 05-22-2004, 02:02 PM   #9
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Jake, thanks for the info. I think in this picture you can see the thickness of the rods:



As for the color of the internals, I think that motor had nearly 200k miles on it when those pictures were taken. Hopefully that puts it in a little perspective.... (then again, my motor has 310k miles on it now, but it was rebuilt a little over 1k ago and now has a metal head gasket among other things)

I'm about to put on an oil cooler (stock toyota one from a later model year motor), so I'll be doing an oil change then.

-Charlie
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Old 05-22-2004, 06:39 PM   #10
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Those rods don't look to be exceptionally thick, but they are definately forged and pretty stout looking based on the size of the grain in them. That crank looks incredibly stout just based on the fact it's forged (look at the lines running down the center) and the fact it has some pretty beefy rod journals. The first compression ring land sits VERY low, so burning those rings should be very tricky (unless the place the re-built the motor cheaped out and didn't use chrome-moly rings). However the pistons definately look cast, and that is going to be your weak point. There isn't also much bracing around the main caps but from the looks of it your pistons will go long before that becomes too much of an issue. I wouldn't trust those pistons much past 11 lbs... but I don't like to push things. The picture of your friends piston makes me think it got eaten by a hot spot due to running lean at some point. If it were a detonation thing it would look much worse. If it were due to excessive pressure/temperature at all times, material would be burned off around the quench area (the raised portion on the top around the lowered area). But the nice radial pattern of the damage in that piston definately indicates a hot spot.

Other than detonation the thing you'll have to look out for is your oil pressure and temp, due to the lack of squirters. It looks like the wrist pins get pretty decent oiling due to the offset oil galley in the rod, but squirters make all the difference in the world. The oil cooler should help alot, make sure it gets lots of good airflow and oil pressure/temp monitor will be critical.

Keep the thing tuned well, avoid ANY detonation and that motor should hold 11, maybe 12psi for the 30k miles you want out of it.

Keep in mind, this is all based off digicam pictures of a motor full of quite a bit of crud , and this is all assuming that the engine re-builder did a good job and got everything back within factory specs. I'm also really OCD about not blowing things up, so you could probably run more boost than what I'm telling you.
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Old 05-22-2004, 06:55 PM   #11
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Glad to hear the the rods and crank are forged... I wouldn't have guessed (though, I know the early versions of the next generation block after mine were forged, so it makes sense). The rings on my motor are chrome-moly. I don't have 100% conficence that the motor was built correctly, but it has good dry compression still and it sounds fine. I bought the car soon after the rebuild so... At least if the motor goes, a new one is pretty damn cheap - or I can just put in MR2 turbo internals.

I'm worried about the oil pressure as it gets down around 4-5psi (according to the cheap gauge I have at the moment) at at 5-600rpm... Cruising its up around 35psi and 40-60 when cold. I'm looking into a better oil pump (the MR2 turbo pump should bolt in, I just need to get it, and hope I can replace it w/ the motor in the car). Also, the motor has 10W30 oil in it and I'll move to 20W50 at the next oil change.

The piston on my buddy's car definitely was hot due to running lean. The stock injectors are 200cc, he was running 10lbs with just a rising rate fpr... bad idea. I can get stock ones from another Toyota that will bolt in fine that are 300cc, but I might need to go higher than that - we will see.

I'm really looking forward to pulling up next to ricey Civics and blowing them off with my 14 year old beater Camry.

-Charlie

edit: the oil cooler is a sandwich water cooled oil cooler, WRX style... I still have to worry about overall cooling though, because the radiator is pretty small and will half covered in front with the AWIC heat exchanger... I already notice the fans like to come on a lot even without much boost through the motor.

Last edited by phattyduck; 05-22-2004 at 07:00 PM.
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Old 05-22-2004, 11:34 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by phattyduck

I'm worried about the oil pressure as it gets down around 4-5psi (according to the cheap gauge I have at the moment) at at 5-600rpm...

*gasp*
I severely HOPE that is not anything close to accurate. 4-5 PSI is absolute doom on bearings especially if you start to increase the shockloading they see from dialing up the boost. Seriously... that's very scary... anything below like 30lbs under load condition on ANY motor and you should start chewing through bearings pretty quickly. I think your oil pump might be taking a crap. If your oil pump were fine and bearings chewed up you would be seeing very low pressure at low speeds and normal oil pressure at higher speeds. Increasing the weight of your oil will actually make this condition worse.

Sounds like you have some cooling issues to work on too... but the fans aren't really a good indicator of when the motor is running hot.
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Old 05-23-2004, 12:34 AM   #13
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Damm, nice to get a lesson on how much I really do not know, cool to have such a knowledge base to learn from

Rick
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Old 05-23-2004, 04:57 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by no-coast-punk
*gasp*
I severely HOPE that is not anything close to accurate. 4-5 PSI is absolute doom on bearings especially if you start to increase the shockloading they see from dialing up the boost. Seriously... that's very scary... anything below like 30lbs under load condition on ANY motor and you should start chewing through bearings pretty quickly. I think your oil pump might be taking a crap. If your oil pump were fine and bearings chewed up you would be seeing very low pressure at low speeds and normal oil pressure at higher speeds. Increasing the weight of your oil will actually make this condition worse.
The 4-5psi scared me the first time I saw it to (well, it still scares me). I had heard somewhere long ago to expect ~10psi of oil pressure for each 1k rpm, so I didn't get totally freaked out when I saw the number in my Camry though... The oil pressure just moves up linearly from idle though. At cruising 2500-3000 its around 30psi. I'm used to seeing ~30psi at idle and 90psi cruising on my WRX, but I know that's higher than most cars (from my experience with an RS-t, at least). Where should I start with troubleshooting this? I guess I should look into how hard it is to replace the oil pump. I don't really want to pull the motor apart just yet - I'd rather have it explode under boost
Quote:
Originally posted by no-coast-punk
Sounds like you have some cooling issues to work on too... but the fans aren't really a good indicator of when the motor is running hot.
Yeah, cooling issues are next on the list... Custom radiator, anyone?

-Charlie
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Old 05-23-2004, 04:58 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by raamaudio
Damm, nice to get a lesson on how much I really do not know, cool to have such a knowledge base to learn from

Rick
Now you know why I come here!
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Old 05-24-2004, 01:13 AM   #16
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Damm right I do!!
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Old 05-24-2004, 04:45 AM   #17
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Update... I checked the factory manual, and everything seems to be inline with the specs (well the pressure is fine...). Its supposed to be 4.3psi at idle and at least 36psi at 3k rpm... Its over 40psi at 3k, so everything seems to be 'fine' I'll probably still put a high flow oil pump when the motor comes out(a buddy of mine has an extra pump I can use for free), but I really don't feel like pulling apart a bunch of the motor to replace something that is still in factory specs.

Anybody else have any thoughts? Suggestions? Questions, criticisms?

-Charlie
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Old 05-24-2004, 09:33 PM   #18
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Ooops... My bad.... I totally mis-read your post and thought you meant 4-5 PSI at 5000-6000 RPM. That oil pressure definately sounds healthy. Don't worry about running a higher than spec. oil pressure as long as you aren't getting any leaky seals. The more pressure you have the better insulated your bearings are. Just make sure you have enough fuel for your goals and that should be a wickedly fun little project. Keep us posted.
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Old 05-24-2004, 09:47 PM   #19
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This sounds like a nice project. I have a 91 Camry myself with 150K miles on it. I may go your route and turbo it Does your Camry have a stock knock sensor? With the right tuning and better fuel system (higher flow pump, 440cc injectors) you could run 10psi easily and keep overall temps low.
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Old 05-25-2004, 12:24 AM   #20
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no-coast - I thought you might have mis-read what I wrote (it wasn't really that clear), but I still wanted to check for myself to be 100% sure of what was going on...

Quote:
Originally posted by WRC 555
This sounds like a nice project. I have a 91 Camry myself with 150K miles on it. I may go your route and turbo it Does your Camry have a stock knock sensor? With the right tuning and better fuel system (higher flow pump, 440cc injectors) you could run 10psi easily and keep overall temps low.
No stock knock sensor on the Camry motor from those years... In '92 they went to the 5s-fe with MAP based engine management and a knock sensor (and 2.2L of displacement). I have to research what injectors will bolt in place of the stock ones, then I have to figure out a cheap option for engine management (I can do the wiring, I just need the ECU for cheap!). Any suggestions?

All the suspension stuff is on order or already in my garage (I'm waiting for it to all arrive to install). Springs, struts, swaybars, poly bushings, front strut tower brace... Handling should be getting better here soon.

I figure the total cost of this project including the car is cheaper than what I would be doing to my WRX right now, so its actually saving me money. I'll keep everyone posted.

-Charlie
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Old 05-25-2004, 08:32 AM   #21
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If your car has a distributor. I've got a single channel J&S I'm selling. Makes knock a non-issue.
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Old 05-25-2004, 01:39 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by no-coast-punk
If your car has a distributor. I've got a single channel J&S I'm selling. Makes knock a non-issue.
Which model? I might be interested... PM me!

-Charlie
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