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Old 05-24-2004, 01:01 PM   #1
UKscooby
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Default $12500 trade in for 02 WRX??

02 wagon, 53000 miles, full service history, dimming mirror, rear bumper protector, armrest extension, upgraded security and subwoofer. $12500 against an 05 STi??
That seems rediculously low to me. I was expecting a more realistic $13500 - $14000.

This puts the STi on hold until i can sell the WRX privately.

Anyone else have what they feel is a low number on a trade in for another Subaru?
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Old 05-24-2004, 01:06 PM   #2
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look up your car on kbb.com. find out the wholesale price. Then, subtract about 2 grand. That is a ballpark figure as to what a dealer will give you in trade.

You alwasy get the shaft on trading vs. sell private cause the dealer is out to make money, not lose money.you trade your car for 12,5. expect to see it for sale for 15-16g.
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Old 05-24-2004, 01:06 PM   #3
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key word is...trade in...they give you a little so they can sell it for a lot...sell it on your own...youll get more for it like 14k to 15k according to kelly blue book
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Old 05-24-2004, 01:10 PM   #4
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Yeah i was thinking of letting it go for $15500 obo see what happens.

So close to that STi!!
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Old 05-24-2004, 01:21 PM   #5
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two comments:

1) www.carbuyingtips.com
2) (more like 1.1 but...) be aware that if the dealership does agree to a higher trade-in price, they'll attempt to raise the new vehicle price to make up for the "loss." That being said, I hope you're getting a good deal on the STi.
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Old 05-24-2004, 01:26 PM   #6
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I just traded in my 02 WRX with 25K on it.

The dealer gave me $16,800.
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Old 05-24-2004, 01:28 PM   #7
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I was in the car selling business and the golden rule is to "give the LEAST on the trade and sell the NEW for the MOST money you can"!! Has been like that since the very first Dinosaur and trailer was sold. Sucks huh??!!

That is why I don't sell cars anymore. Can't break too many hearts you know?? Good luck your sale of your WRX your price seems right to me. The STi is righteous. I wish I had more $$$s too to get one. I love the WRX though still of course.
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Old 05-24-2004, 02:21 PM   #8
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dealers wont give you the price you want at the first visit, it may take a while, so it depends on how quick you want that STi. They gave me 15k for my 02 WRX. I just wanted the STI now, so, now I have it
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Old 05-24-2004, 02:23 PM   #9
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i traded an 01 RS with 44,000 in last fall and got 13,000
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Old 05-24-2004, 02:38 PM   #10
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First, thanks for posting guys.

The STi was stickered at $33800 and i got them down to $31800.
The WRX was valued at $15500 2 months ago by the same people. Lost $3000 in 2 months???

I cant afford the "monthlies" on the STi if i dont get $15000 out of the WRX. I think $15500 is a decent price to ask, and i think my expectation of $13500 was about right as a trade in value on the STi.

I have to say a big thank you to my wife who as put up with me muttering STi this, STi that for the last few months.
She gave up a new Nissan Marano so i could have the STi.
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Old 05-24-2004, 02:43 PM   #11
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Everyone is right on the nose here..trade in you always get less, and I also heard from a reliable source at an auto company that wagons are worth less than sedans because they are less popular..this may or may not be true..also, the price on the STi is OK..I mean $2000 off is about invoice or a little above..and the dealer has holdback..so they are still making a decent amount on you..

The reason you car is worth less now is because when you trade at a new model year, your car will always be worth less..are you getting a 2004 or 2005 sti? if its a 2004..I'd try and get a better deal..once you drive it off the lot its already a year old and probably worth atleast $3-5k less than what you paid for it
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Old 05-24-2004, 02:51 PM   #12
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Its an 05 STi. 9 miles on it. I picked it out as it was rolling off the trailer.
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Old 05-24-2004, 04:28 PM   #13
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I'm in the same boat as you UKScooby. 02 WRX with the same options and I'm trading it in for a 05 STI.

You need to realize that KBB can be very dealer biased. Check KBB, NADA, and Edmunds. Print out the reports for all of them, and I would think that you should be able to get the average price from a dealer which will be better than KBB alone at 12,500.

I am trading in my 02 WRX with 45,000 miles on it for 14,500 and it needs about $800 in paint repair and some warranty work. I ordered a 05 STI for $500 over invoice.

I'm extremely happy with my deal, but I think you are getting screwed at 12,500 even with a good deal on the STI.
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Old 05-24-2004, 05:24 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by imprezziva
look up your car on kbb.com. find out the wholesale price. Then, subtract about 2 grand. That is a ballpark figure as to what a dealer will give you in trade.

You alwasy get the shaft on trading vs. sell private cause the dealer is out to make money, not lose money.you trade your car for 12,5. expect to see it for sale for 15-16g.
No. You do NOT subtract "about 2 grand". It is not the Kelley Blue Book "Wholesale" price, it is the Kelley Blue Book Trade-in Value, which (assuming "Good" condition, which would be normal although most fools think their car is "excellent") would be $12,610 for his car.
I agree with you that dealers are in the business to make money, but I'm thinking they must roll out the red carpet when you pull up if you think trade-in is $2k under low book...


edit: It is true that negotiating a higher trade-in can result in a higher sales price for the new vehicle. This is why you (1) never have negative equity in your car which would force you into that position, and (2) never negotiate those 2 things together -- they are 2 separate transactions, keep them that way.
If you must trade in (I prefer private party), negotiate the price of the new vehicle first and do not discuss the trade. Leave it out. Tell them there isn't one. Shoot for as close to invoice or below as you can on the new car. Then bring up the trade. Shoot for a minimum of low book or more (not $2k under ). Tell them they have to pay that on the trade or they lose the deal on the new car. Then (for God's sake) watch the final paperwork because 99.9% of all dealers will try to play tricks in the documents after you run them through that wringer. Stand firm.

edit2: I just pulled up NADA and noticed that they say trade-in value on an 02 WRX wagon 2/53k miles should be $15,625. Always hold firm at what benefits you the most

Last edited by rexpdx; 05-24-2004 at 05:34 PM.
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Old 05-24-2004, 08:17 PM   #15
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Here's what I did when I wanted to upgrade.

Step #1:

You only want one number from the dealer; what's the price of the STi after the trade in.

That's the only number they can't fudge. They can give you an awesome trade in, but not move from sticker. They can sell to you at $1000 less than invoice, but lowball the hell out of your trade. They can work the math however they want to acheive a certain monthly payment. They cannot massage the price difference, so ask for that number.

Step #2:

Call every dealer in your state and all neighboring states (and even further if you want). Ask them if they have an STi, and if it matches your criteria, move on to step 3.

Step 3:

Tell the dealer that you dont want to jack him off, and that you don't want to be jacked off. I used these words and 50% of the dealers seemed to understand. Tell them your situation. Say: "I am shopping for a car not a price, I am calling all dealers only once, whatever dealer offers me the best price difference gets my money, call me back with your offer."

Of the 50-100 dealers I called, only about 8 returned my calls. But all of the ones that returned my calls were willing to deal, so I had already eliminated the scrub and dirtball dealerships. Of the 8 that returned my calls, 2-3 had very good offers.

I ended up trading in a low-option 02 5-speed WRB sedan with 34,000 miles for an STi. My price out the door (tax, title, tags, etc...) was $14,000

How did I get such a good deal when my car was really only worth about 14k? My car was wrecked (some idiot rearended me and bent the unibody, and I felt uncomfortable riding on a repaired frame). If you ever want to upgrade, it's much better to trade in a wrecked car. The damage estimate on my car was around 6k. Realistically, it's only going to cost the dealer 3k to fix it, so that's an extra 3k in bargaining power you have

If anyone in the Pennsylvania area or sorrounding states is ever looking for a Subaru, I highly recommend Condrin Subaru in Altoona. Condrin gave me the best price, the best service, and was all around wonderful to work with. I arrived at the dealership, and they had me in the car and out the door within the hour. No haggle, no last-minute bull**** with the financing, no call a few weeks later telling me they worked me out some lower payments; NO BS! The most absolutely wonderful dealership I have ever dealt with. They have secured me as a customer for life.
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Old 05-24-2004, 08:23 PM   #16
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As much as I hate to say this, as most of you will not be happy, all the car is really worth is ~$12K realistically. The fact of the matter is, that Subaru's have always been "soft" when it comes to resale value, and the WRX is no exeption.
As for the person who said "dont tell them you have a trade in until the end" you are only screwing yourself up. Trust me. Say you negotiate a price of a few hundred above invoice, and then want $2-3k more than your car is worth? You're only setting yourself up for disapointment. Im in the "business" and have had this happen to me, and each and every time have said "have a nice day" to people, as there is nothing to discuss. It is interesting how in this business, one can hardly make 1% of the price of the car as profit, yet I see no one going to the grocery store and "negotiating" the price of the milk. Than, the consumers wonder why the industry is dirty...Cause you made it that way! You give an inch they take a mile. So let me see, you make hardly anything on the new car, and you should loose money on the trade in? I always tought people were more intelligent than that....
Vent done, flame on.

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Old 05-24-2004, 08:43 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by UKscooby
I cant afford the "monthlies" on the STi if i dont get $15000 out of the WRX.
This is a sign you should keep the WRX... worse mileage, slightly more expensive maintainance.. not gonna help things. Don't make yourself car poor..

john
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Old 05-24-2004, 09:08 PM   #18
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It may not seem as pleasing but you could upgrade your WRX and let your wife have the Murano.
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Old 05-24-2004, 09:09 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by dandbest
As much as I hate to say this, as most of you will not be happy, all the car is really worth is ~$12K realistically. The fact of the matter is, that Subaru's have always been "soft" when it comes to resale value, and the WRX is no exeption.
As for the person who said "dont tell them you have a trade in until the end" you are only screwing yourself up. Trust me. Say you negotiate a price of a few hundred above invoice, and then want $2-3k more than your car is worth? You're only setting yourself up for disapointment. Im in the "business" and have had this happen to me, and each and every time have said "have a nice day" to people, as there is nothing to discuss. It is interesting how in this business, one can hardly make 1% of the price of the car as profit, yet I see no one going to the grocery store and "negotiating" the price of the milk. Than, the consumers wonder why the industry is dirty...Cause you made it that way! You give an inch they take a mile. So let me see, you make hardly anything on the new car, and you should loose money on the trade in? I always tought people were more intelligent than that....
Vent done, flame on.

Danny
The only disappointment I would be setting myself up for is that I would have to walk away and find another dealer.
Last time I bought a new car (my WRX), I got such a great deal on the sales price that I just left my trade out of it and sold it private party. No skin off my back and I netted a lot more out of the deal.

And hey, I work in big-ticket sales too, as a mortgage broker. Negotiation takes place because the customers want it that way, otherwise Saturn would have sold a lot more cars. They want to think they're getting a better deal than everyone else. And while I agree with you on the milk analogy (bear in mind that my profit margins are limited by federal law), people do in fact negotiate the price of milk every day: they go to another grocery store (a very competitive business itself).
I understand being frustrated by a customer who spouts off unrealistic numbers, and I more than anyone know when to cut bait on an unreasonable customer and an unprofitable deal and walk away (much to their surprise sometimes). But if the numbers are realistic, the deal is slam-dunk easy, and money is to be made, I don't let greed stand in the way or start complaining how my commission should have been twice as much. I either do it or I don't.

Such as it is, Book value is Book value. And the purchase and the trade are two entirely separate transactions, not one as car salesmen with their "foursquare" would have people believe. If I work a salesmen down to invoice on the purchase when they believe there is no trade, how is it different if I then present a trade in good condition with positive equity and ask for fair book value? I'm not talking about sneaking in a junker with thousands and negative equity and expecting invoice price plus "pay off my trade".

Anyway, remember that nobody needs a brand new car. It is a luxury. Thinking they need something that they actually just want is one of the biggest reasons why so many otherwise able-bodied people have financial difficulties.
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Old 05-25-2004, 11:44 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by rexpdx
The only disappointment I would be setting myself up for is that I would have to walk away and find another dealer.
Last time I bought a new car (my WRX), I got such a great deal on the sales price that I just left my trade out of it and sold it private party. No skin off my back and I netted a lot more out of the deal.

And hey, I work in big-ticket sales too, as a mortgage broker. Negotiation takes place because the customers want it that way, otherwise Saturn would have sold a lot more cars. They want to think they're getting a better deal than everyone else. And while I agree with you on the milk analogy (bear in mind that my profit margins are limited by federal law), people do in fact negotiate the price of milk every day: they go to another grocery store (a very competitive business itself).
I understand being frustrated by a customer who spouts off unrealistic numbers, and I more than anyone know when to cut bait on an unreasonable customer and an unprofitable deal and walk away (much to their surprise sometimes). But if the numbers are realistic, the deal is slam-dunk easy, and money is to be made, I don't let greed stand in the way or start complaining how my commission should have been twice as much. I either do it or I don't.

Such as it is, Book value is Book value. And the purchase and the trade are two entirely separate transactions, not one as car salesmen with their "foursquare" would have people believe. If I work a salesmen down to invoice on the purchase when they believe there is no trade, how is it different if I then present a trade in good condition with positive equity and ask for fair book value? I'm not talking about sneaking in a junker with thousands and negative equity and expecting invoice price plus "pay off my trade".

Anyway, remember that nobody needs a brand new car. It is a luxury. Thinking they need something that they actually just want is one of the biggest reasons why so many otherwise able-bodied people have financial difficulties.
Altough I agree with you to an extent, I think its good for you to know that dealers do not use KBB, as its very unrealistic. Most dealers use Galves-- dont know if you're familiar. Let me ask you this, when was the last time YOU purchased a used car for Blue book? Secondly, everyone knows that they can get more for their car if they sold it privately. Why is it then that people dont? I have a theory-- not too many people walk arround with $15k cash, so the sale will be difficult. But, who's problem is that?

Now, wether people NEED or WANT a new car is an issue we can discuss all day, but whichever the case they dont just wonder into the dealership thinking its a grocery store. Lets leave it there.
The bottom line is that people cant/shouldnt expect to pay invoice for the new car, and then tell you "well yeah, I have a trade, and by the way, I want $5k for it cause KBB says so" I wonder, will Kelly Blue Book buy your car as per the price they put on it? Can they see the condition of the car? Does the word "good condition" mean the same to me as it does to you? And finally, KBB even says that their prices are just "estimation".
And, no, I have no problem whatsoever letting people go-- they look at me in amazement, but hey there is only so much that can be done. Numbers are numbers, no?
And your analogy about the milk and people shopping in different stores is not valid either. Think of say Stop & Shop as say Toyota,
Waldbaums as Honda etc. In the end, the result is the same, you're drinking milk, or driving to work. Right? So why is it I see no people going to the cashier and saying "well, can you do this milk for $1.19 instead of $1.99?" or people at a restaurant (where the profit is 300-400%!!) and negotiating the price of their meal? Why is it different? Enlighten me. Thanks
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Old 05-25-2004, 01:22 PM   #21
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UKscooby:

I have access to an aution internet site. Last week 20 2002 WRX wagons were sold at wholesale auction at the various sites reported on. The AVERAGE car had 32,300 miles on it and sold for $15,300. Cars with your mileage on them sold for about $13,500. Very low mileage cars were $16,800. The general condition of your car has a substantial bearing on what they offer you also. Things such as tire wear, modifications, and paint condition are important.

$13,500 is probably the right number if the car is in good presentable condition.
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Old 05-25-2004, 02:52 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by UKscooby
02 wagon, 53000 miles, full service history, dimming mirror, rear bumper protector, armrest extension, upgraded security and subwoofer. $12500 against an 05 STi??
That seems rediculously low to me. I was expecting a more realistic $13500 - $14000.

This puts the STi on hold until i can sell the WRX privately.

Anyone else have what they feel is a low number on a trade in for another Subaru?
depends on the market in your area, but 02's in decent shape should sell for 16-17 at the dealer, they have to possably do some work on it and try to turn a profit, so that trade in seems in line...

best to try and sell it privatly... get a good # in your mind.
go look at the sti again on the 31st.
give them another chance to shoot you a #
if the manager is trying to make #'s he may pay out a bit more on your trade in/give you an extra $500 off of the sti...

it's what i did.
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Old 05-25-2004, 03:12 PM   #23
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i agree whole-heartedly with dandbest. kbb 'used to' be THE BOOK that the dealers used. they are based out of southern california. dealers and banks paid to be members. many years ago, dealers realized that kbb's pricing isn't true to the markets, and estimated valuations. ie: a covertible is NOT worth the same in minnesota as it is in california or florida, but yet kbb said it was. not only that, but they updated their pricing just twice a year! then the dealers got together and formed the NADA(national automobile dealers association). even this is broken down by state, and even by city/market. each region has its own board, made up of bankers, dealers, and wholesalers. we get a new book monthly. once NADA was formed, kbb lost its revenue from association fees and book fees. since the internet, kbb is now able to sell its services for a montly fee to anyone that wants it. those sites that use it do so mainly because of kbb's brand name and popularity(the blue book). edmunds used to be the wholesale book(the black book). now, most lenders/auctions/dealers OUTSIDE of california use the NADA. notice also that kbb, edmunds, and NADAonline do NOT have wholesale values. they will give you trade in, low and high retail. even when you look at the NADA book in the library or buy one at a parts store, it clearly states on the cover 'consumer edition', which still doesn't include wholesale values. wholesale is also known as LOAN value, which is what banks go off of instead of invoice for a new car. amounts loaned are based off of this loan value. which now means, dealers have to be able to sell a used vehicle in ratio with the car's loan value, in order to be able to get financing. if a loan value is 13,000, and the car is being sold at 15,000, then chances are the bank will not do 100% financing. it's the lenders' insurance to be in the car right. the comment above about the monitor is also exact. let's face it...NOBODY in their right mind will buy a car, sight unseen, for the price listed online. if kbb retail is 16,000 on a car, most folks will try to negotiate down a grand or so...which 90% of the time brings it to kbb trade in value. dealers are businesses, and in order for any business to stay afloat, they need to make a profit. there are few businesses that can stay above water off a 2-3% profit. your car is just your car. dealers often see many of 'your' cars, and have more a basis to compare values side by side. what if one owner had B.O.?? is it worth more or less?? lastly, kbb simply does not 'buy' cars at all. if you call them, they will bring up disclaimers and wiggle away from their own suggested values. they will specifically tell you to go to a few dealers, and get an average "wholesale" value for your market. if you are outside of california and like kbb values, go to your closest CARMAX. they use kbb....sidebar: how many us have complained about paying a $6-8 markup for a $11.99 CD on sale?? i worked at best buy, and know their costs. now add up how many CDs you have, and see who was unfair all these years...how many of you have a 32" TV that you paid about $500 for?? your retailer only paid half of that, in most cases...48" mitsu rear projection retailing for 1700, only costs about $600...automobiles are the ONLY industry that gives you this info...the problem is that now must people think they are educated like the dealers...try running a dealership. it's not as easy as you think. that's why we have body shops and service and parts...
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Old 05-25-2004, 03:35 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by dandbest
Altough I agree with you to an extent, I think its good for you to know that dealers do not use KBB, as its very unrealistic. Most dealers use Galves-- dont know if you're familiar. Let me ask you this, when was the last time YOU purchased a used car for Blue book? Secondly, everyone knows that they can get more for their car if they sold it privately. Why is it then that people dont? I have a theory-- not too many people walk arround with $15k cash, so the sale will be difficult. But, who's problem is that?

Now, wether people NEED or WANT a new car is an issue we can discuss all day, but whichever the case they dont just wonder into the dealership thinking its a grocery store. Lets leave it there.
The bottom line is that people cant/shouldnt expect to pay invoice for the new car, and then tell you "well yeah, I have a trade, and by the way, I want $5k for it cause KBB says so" I wonder, will Kelly Blue Book buy your car as per the price they put on it? Can they see the condition of the car? Does the word "good condition" mean the same to me as it does to you? And finally, KBB even says that their prices are just "estimation".
And, no, I have no problem whatsoever letting people go-- they look at me in amazement, but hey there is only so much that can be done. Numbers are numbers, no?
And your analogy about the milk and people shopping in different stores is not valid either. Think of say Stop & Shop as say Toyota,
Waldbaums as Honda etc. In the end, the result is the same, you're drinking milk, or driving to work. Right? So why is it I see no people going to the cashier and saying "well, can you do this milk for $1.19 instead of $1.99?" or people at a restaurant (where the profit is 300-400%!!) and negotiating the price of their meal? Why is it different? Enlighten me. Thanks
Hmm... taking your points one at a time...

You don't need $15k cash to buy a private party car. That's a BS lie that car dealers like to tell people. Bank financing is easy and cheap for late model used cars (less than 10 years old), even when bought and sold privately. So just why would a private party sale be more difficult?... Oops, it's not.
Those little lies you might use on your customers are not going to work on me here.

I see that KBB is only "unrealistic" to dealers when it's high on a trade-in. When it's high on the purchase price, dealers usually advertise with it. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
Regardless, it provides a guide and a negotiation tool, which is what it is designed to do. Naturally, an in-person inspection of the car is required to determine actual value (doesn't that go without saying?).

Restaurants do not have profit margins of "300-400%". The cost of food is usually the least expensive part of a restaurant's overhead. Their highest costs are labor (food preparation), building, and equipment, which have the added drawback of being fixed. In reality, restaurant have very low profit margins and there is almost no greater investment risk than backing a new restaurant.

As for the whole negotiating for a car and no one negotiates a price of milk argument... hey, the fault for that lies squarely on the car salesmen themselves. Whether you wish to see it or not. "Let's make a deal!" blah blah blah. Most car salesmen never shut up about the price. You walk on a lot and the first words out of their lips is about how great their prices are. On and on. Hell, even if you try to skip the price negotiation and give in to their price they still keep haggling (I've tried this just for fun). Once a customer gives in at one level, they try to get more. It's like agreeing to the store's price of $1.99 for that gallon of milk and then they suddenly want $2.49 at the register.

With a good career in sales already behind me, I know all about car salesmen. I don't fault them as a group. Not at all, one of my best friends is one. I do believe that most of them are incompetent and (at the same time) blind to their lacks, which generally involve being pushing and having terrible people skills. If the customer wasn't being held hostage in the box and the sale wasn't over in a couple of hours, most car salesmen couldn't close a door. Something I know from experience whenever I see an ex-car salesman try to transition to mortgage sales, where the process take 4-6 weeks or more. Most of them usually fall flat right on their face, because people skills, sales relationship, and creating actual customer benefit, and not bullying, is what real sales is all about.
Case in point: when I bought my WRX, I went through a guaranteed buy-at-invoice car buying service instead of going through an actual dealership. Why? Not because I knew I would get it cheaper. Hardly. I knew I could haggle as much as necessary, and many here I'm sure have paid less than invoice at a dealership. No, I did it because I think car salesmen are a hassle. An annoyance that gets in the way of my objective of buying the car I came to buy, if only because bald-faced liars make me feel violent.

Sorry to be so wordy. Cliff notes answer to your question: because the last time I went to pay $1.99 for a gallon of milk (of course without haggling), they didn't try to jack the price to $2.49 at the register while telling me that milk contains 1000% of the recommended vitamin C intake and is the cure for cancer. You reap what you sow.
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Old 05-25-2004, 03:38 PM   #25
dandbest
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Thanks ScubieDoobieDoo, at least someone understands my point, and reality all toghether. Im truly amazed that "profit" has become a dirty word... You know, everyone here works, and gets a paycheck for it. That is only because your boss makes a "profit", or charges his customers more than the product costs him. If there was no "profit", your boss wouldnt need you. Could it be any simpler?
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