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Old 05-16-2000, 08:08 AM   #1
Turbo
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Talking Turbo kits almost ready.....

Well, we finally decided on which components were are using in the "system", that will be available shortly. Currently, we are using a FPR to suppliment the fuel system, and It's working beautifully. It is a rising rate, but it's quite adjustable, for off boost pressure, "transition", and WOT. It practically eliminates the need for the AFC to be used. The parts list goes something like this:

2" stainless up-pipe
2.5" stainless downpipe
Garrett T3/T4 (specs are available upon request
FPR
Top mounted Spearco IC
Intercooler piping
Greddy BOV
Intake tubing that uses the factory airbox

To give you an idea of the performance, a 1999 2.5 RS, that is running 8psi of boost, is turning 13.75's at the track and on the vericom. Full boost is coming on hard at 2500 RPM!!!

Hows that for response?

I will have pictures VERY soon.


-Turbo-

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Old 05-16-2000, 08:11 AM   #2
kid22
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guys listen to theo, he know's his stuff!! i know coz he been working so hard on the kit that he ignores me online!!! hahahaha
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Old 05-16-2000, 08:11 AM   #3
Joe Hogan
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Turbo,

Where are you located in FL?

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Old 05-16-2000, 08:12 AM   #4
Jake_S
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Glad to see you're back. When will the turbo be released? Will the kit work on MY00?
Jake_S
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Old 05-16-2000, 08:13 AM   #5
Opie
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Hey Turbo maybe you and the test RS could come out to one of the Florida auto-x/meets? We've got one this weekend on the East Coast in Palm Bay if your interested.
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Old 05-16-2000, 08:23 AM   #6
cOz
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Turbo,

Happy to see your back and still working on subaru projects. Cant wait to see some pics. Personally I know I will get a turbo sometime, but Im not sure when.

Good Luck,

cOz
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Old 05-16-2000, 08:24 AM   #7
imprezive
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wooooohoooo!!!
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Old 05-16-2000, 10:01 AM   #8
Tyrmeltr
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Before you get all defensive, I would first like to congragulate you for building your own turbo. Great feeling when you did it yourself, and didn't buy some kit eh?

Even though it's working so well, your turbo is big. Let's put it this way - it could be so much bettter than it is now. It's not when it spools up, it's how fast it gets to peak boost. Dont foreget thermal effeciency - T3-04 turbos are rated to 30+ psi. Shoot, a 300+ (400+ whitout inlet restrictor) 2.0 liter Group A Escort Cosworth RS rally car uses a a T3 @32psi! I doubt you will ever be running half that boost.

I have a T3 on a 2.2 legacy turbo motor w DOHC '98 RS heads running alomost 14psi, and it's still way laggy. Look how big a T3/04 is compared to an OEM Subaru IHI. It's tiny in comparision, and in Japan they can tune EJ20's to 320+h.p. on that turbo - So why do you need one twice the size?

I've seen all the turbo Impreza setups, and the T28 or IHI is the way to go. You think you got response now? Try putting a T28 on and running it at 8psi. Spool up is like at 2000, with peak boost alonost instantaenously. You'll really notice difference, and wonder whatever possessed you to put a big turbo on to begin with.

I'm getting a T28 with a custom trim from Turbonetics. It's rated to 1BAR at peak effeciency. After many discussions with them, they actually reccomended this turbo for me. If you won't take my word, maybe you'll take theirs. They know a *little* about turbocharging. Just some thoughts, I've had a do it yourself turbo RS for a couple years now. Later all, and keep your Subies slideways!

Arik Kadsoh
98 Impreza Turbo (2.2l)
SPD and Renner tuned
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Old 05-16-2000, 10:10 AM   #9
ColinL
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You might search for Turbo's previous posts before you question his ability to size the turbo...

He said full boost by 2500rpm. Sounds good to me.
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Old 05-16-2000, 10:20 AM   #10
BryanH
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Can we please not get into another pissing contest about how to build a turbo!!!!
I just want to see it!!!!

Turbo, have you ever made a kit for a GTI VR6?
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Old 05-16-2000, 10:47 AM   #11
Tyrmeltr
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I did not question his abiltiy. I was throwing facts out. Just something to consider. I've seen/driven many setups. Alot of RS's are using big turbos with low boost and are getting GREAT results. I am sure Turbo's car is quite fast too Colin. I'm just saying it would be EVEN better with a smaller turbo

My best friend runs a low low 12 sec turboed 9:5.1 comp 2.0l VW Scirocco(sp?) He runs a T3-04b, @ 16psi, and is stepping down to a T3. WTF would he do that? Because his turbo is to big! Got it? A T3 hybrid is considerably bigger than an Impreza WRC turbo - got that? A WRC runs 30+psi boost, Turbo is running 8psi boost.

So the question again is...Why do you need a BIG turbo, that can handle 2 bar+ of boost, when you could have a smaller, more effecient turbo designed for the boost you plan on running? Maybe you can awnser that for me Colin?

*Arik looking under Colin's hood, noticing lack of turbo*

Sorry, but don't throw stones when you live in a glass house. Technobabble doesn't carry much weight when you don't practice what you preach.

Turbo- I'm sure your car is very nice and fast enjoy!

Cheers - Arik
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Old 05-16-2000, 10:48 AM   #12
MPREZYA
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I have to agree with Arik on alot of points about the turbo's size. I think that the bigger turbo size will give a higher output but you will end up making a power curve that will look like a honda when V-TEC kicks in. That is great fun and all but I would want a quick spool with the slight drop-off on the high-end with awesome pull from just off start till just before redline then to have "lag" which is what it is with the bigger turbo's which isn't noticable on the RS's since they have a good torque curve and bottom end which masks it. I have ridden in Arik's car as well as TMR's JC sport turbo and while TMR's seemed to hit boost almost instantaneous Arik's did suffer lag but when that turbo kicked it pulled rather hard(compared to the JC at 5-7 lbs when TMR gave me a ride)unless he happened to miss a down shift and the rev's dropped then back came the lag. Basically I would prefer a semi smooth strong power band than a heady high end(which does make a fun car at times). But again to each his own.
Rich
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Old 05-16-2000, 11:53 AM   #13
Basil
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I would say that Arik does have a point, but I also think that it's more of a matter of personal preference.. I personally have no problem with a little bit of lag - I rather like the frantic sound of a car in the upper powerband. That and the AWD makes it a lot less frightening than say a late '70's 930 - which is neck-snapping oversteer personified.

I think it's great that there's another vendor ramping up to build a turbo kit for the subaru.. I know I want horsepressure, and don't know whether I'm gonna want a factory turbo (lord, the spy/fake photos are ugly..).. It'll be nice to have another kit to consider when I get ready to buy. I look forward to hearing some results..
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Old 05-16-2000, 12:05 PM   #14
shiv
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I would argue that most of the lag one may associate with a big turbo'd system is due to fuel/ignition management. Under boost, the stock ECU pulls back excessive amounts of timing (esp in the low end and midrange). Sucks up a lot of power.

Alex, Joel, Randy? What did you guys think of the "lag" in my T3/T4 car?

shiv
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Old 05-16-2000, 12:16 PM   #15
rrsettgast
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Lag?? I didn't notice any lag....but maybe thats because the corners of my mouth were pinned to my ears

Randy
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Old 05-16-2000, 12:29 PM   #16
BryanH
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I owned a 300ZX with an aftermarket turbo on it and the car had considerable lag. (It was VERY VERY fast but had lag) I was told this was due to the delay of air it had to pull in due to plumbing length to get the turbo operating properly.(Front mounted IC)

My question is: If the IC is top mounted wouldn't you have a more readily available supply of air and end up decreasing turbo lag? Would this not then compliment the existing strong low end/weak top end of the RS?

Also, Turbo, VW GTIVR6 kit????
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Old 05-16-2000, 12:37 PM   #17
imprezive
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If I'm correct which I'm probably not If a ball bearing turbo was used would it not spool up faster?

Chase "I should stay out of the technical forum" Smith
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Old 05-16-2000, 02:29 PM   #18
NickSTi
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A TURBO SUBARU TUNER? IN FL?
very strange. very strange.
This may be a blessing yet.
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Old 05-16-2000, 02:32 PM   #19
8Complex

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Want an interesting idea? Why don't they make carbon fiber compressor (and exhaust? terminology is not my thing) fans so that they'll spool up fast as hell but still output a lot of pressure? The only trade off would be that it slows down more qiuckly as well, though it is a small price to pay for fast spool up, I'd think.

Note: this poster knows very little about turbos but wants one badly. The more he can help the development of a kit by the time his warantee is up (or he's sick of his car) the better for him.
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Old 05-16-2000, 02:38 PM   #20
MPREZYA
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Joel that is true but how often do people redline shift unless racing. The smaller turbo would be the better compromise of the both granted it may run out of steam at the top end but I know if I had a manual(yeah yeah yeah slush box this and that) I still wouldn't be riding my car redline to redline with every shift. I recall an article in Shiv's own correspondant SCC about the Greedspeed A4 and the Stock A4 (Audi for those who don't know) comparing the two. Let's just say one looked like a great overall balance(sure it needed more top end for being stock) and the other was nothing till boost and then it looked like it takes a rocket launch to redline from about 3K. Obviously major lag/improper tuning etc. There are both valid points but I would prefer to have the smooth incline with a top off before redline than something that would make me want to bounce off the rev-limiter because there is more left in it. This would make IMO a better car for all-around use and better Grab-a-Gear and go type of fun like the stock car with plenty of pull. Like for example (IIRC) reading some of the articles on the new Porsche Turbo apparently max boost (@14 psi) is achieved below the middle of the RPM band with it slowly tapering off till redline (@9 psi). This is on a twin turbo 9.6 CR flat 6 engine(yeah granted it's a $100K car) that shares some things in common with our flat 4's. I agree with Shiv's earlier comment that our higer compression engine's running less boost may be more capable overall compared to the STI's with lower compression and higher boost by being able to mask the lag of the larger turbo he is running. Heck the old 98 project car (which I don't under stand completely why the dyno chart looked so jagged) would probably perfom alot better with a top mount IC and enough time to do things right not the couple weeks to hurry up and get things together. I would like to see a comparison between the two again being as the 98 uses a smaller turbo with a top mount IC (heck use a minnam or something) and even the TEC II system from Shiv to see if the knowledge Shiv is starting to uncover with the 99rs can make a difference on the 98 with the smaller turbo(please not with the FMIC) to make a decent comparison since the dyno curve SCC shows looks pretty weird but also show's the difference in power curves in the two with the smaller turbo 98 and the bigger turbo 99.
Rich
Once again to each his own.
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Old 05-16-2000, 03:41 PM   #21
TR
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Location: now w/100% less turbo
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Turbo...the kit sounds nice and simple. I dont know anything about turbo sizing so I'll keep my yap shut on that one.
2 questions though...
-is there going to be a wastegate in the kit?
-would a non-stock air cone be retrofitable to the intake section?

sounds great...cant wait to hear more.
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Old 05-16-2000, 05:26 PM   #22
shiv
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Rich,

Much of that difference in dyno graph (between the 98 and 99 turbo cars) is a result of the MY99 having a hyperactive stock knock sensor. This absolutely kills midrange torque. In fact, notice that, at precisely 5000rm, the torque curve actually begins to *rise* once the OEM knock sensor disables itself. That's an EFI tuning issue, not a turbo sizing issue. If it weren't for this knock sensor anamoly, I would suspect that the dyno graphs would look quite similar with the '98 turbo (with small ball bearing IHI) having a slight torque advantage only up to 3000rpm and falling short of the '99 turbo from there to redline.

shiv
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Old 05-16-2000, 05:49 PM   #23
Turbo
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oops! forgot the wastegate.
We are using either the Tial 40mm (overkill)
or the Tial 35mm (but I like overkill!)

Anyhows, with the T3/T4 (dodging flying stones! j/k) and using the 2.5 " downpipe, the "packaging" is much neater. Much more firewall clearence, and you don't have to "bathe" everything in heat sheilding (but I would!)

I'd like to go to the auto X, but we are finishing up a MR-2 (350+ WHP) this weekend, so I'll have to pass.

I'd like to try the T28, and we will find out how that works on another members car (building the up/down pipe, etc..), BUT another customer had a t25 on his 1.8L 93 (flaat 4) and that thing ran outta steam around 4500 rpm. I can't see the T28 making much more of a difference, especially on the 2.5, unless the 2.5's aren't moving that much "more" air.

Anyhows, there is work to do. I'll post again soon.


-Turbo-
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Old 05-16-2000, 07:11 PM   #24
N/A
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The T28 is used by FHI in the A/T WRX Wagons. The reason is that it will spool up quickly. With an A/T you can't rev then drop the clutch. It seems to work fine in the WRX's even with the relatively small STI intercoolers. I have no info on the rise in heat with the smaller T28 but if SOJ uses them and warranty's them they must not cause any damage. If you then consider that you will end up using a intercooler like the Minnam StageII it would make sense that cooling or staying cool shouldn't be a real issue. With the max boost coming at such a low RPM I would only be worried about the stock tranny. You would also have to use appropriate mapping to go with the smaller T28 but I am sure Shivs TEC-II will be able to adjust for it. It would be really nice to see a T28 ball bearing turbo go into the RS. Oh and watercooled center section. Mmmmmm boost.
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Old 05-16-2000, 08:35 PM   #25
Joe Hogan
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Turbo,

will your kit fit a MY99RS w/4EAT??
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