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Old 05-29-2000, 08:07 PM   #1
Dobes
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Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Philly suburbs
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1997 Legacy GT-T

Post

That's me with the cage. As SteveS said, visit his site ( www.lagging.com )to see some pictures or go to the members section here:

http://208.9.184.110/MembersList/Vie...fm?MemberID=44

Rallispec did an unbelievable job installing it without removing or modifying too many panels. The cage is a Sparco Group A unit from Italy.

Do a search on this site for 'rollcage' and you will find a bunch of information on this subject.

A little preview:



JD


EDIT: BTW, since the pictures were taken, I have upgraded to 5pt harnesses for the driver and passenger. I also managed to stuff most of the rear seat back in the car. I will try and take some pictures soon.


[This message has been edited by Dobes (edited May 29, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Dobes (edited May 29, 2000).]
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Old 05-29-2000, 09:34 PM   #2
Tkacik
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Nice Job!!! I like. How much did all of that set you back? Does this noticeably stiffen up the car?
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Old 05-29-2000, 10:50 PM   #3
ImprezaRS dot com
over boosted again
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Also, the owner of www.subysports.com, subyweb@aol.com, has a roll bar in his 4 door. Ask him about his...

Larry
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Old 05-30-2000, 12:34 AM   #4
MD20
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Question Any one have Rollcage/Bar?

If so: how is the fit? Custom or Pre-Fabed? Who did it for you?
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Old 05-30-2000, 12:48 AM   #5
SteveS
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Interlagos Blue

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Jeff Doble has a rollcage. I have some pictures of it on my site. RalliSpec did the install. I believe the cage was manufactured in Italy. RalliSpec should be able to hook you up.
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Old 05-30-2000, 01:56 AM   #6
4wdrift
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Try this shop: http://www.artmorrison.com/
I hear he does a an 8pt roll cage for
around $300 and you can leave your
back seat in. I don't personally have
any experience with them though.

4wdrift


[This message has been edited by 4wdrift (edited May 30, 2000).]
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Old 05-30-2000, 10:11 AM   #7
Tyrmeltr
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2013 Impreza WRX 5D
Plasma Blue Pearl

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A few questions about that cage.

Where is the bar that crosses under the sunroof?

What about the side impact protection? Right about where the armrest is there is a good sized X section, that requires climbing over to get in. Super important

Was the cage welded to the roof like it should be?

Finally, did you weld the cage to the front and rear suspension pick up points?

If theese things aren't done, the cage is not nearly as effective as it could be. It's alot safer than stock I'm sure, but it looks like a few crucial parts were omitted.

The reason I ask, is because I have pictues of an Impreza body shell (just the shell), with a Sparco Group A cage installed, and it has all the features that I mentioned. It wouldn't be FIA approved without them.

I also have pictures of a WRC body Shell, and a Group N body Shell prepared by Prodrive - Truly a work of art, and even more comprehensive that the COMPLETE Sparco cage.
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Old 05-30-2000, 09:16 PM   #8
Dobes
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Tyrmeltr: The questions you are asking make me think you have no confidence in the quality of my rollcage. Yes, there were some parts omitted, but no, they weren't "crucial" as you put it. Bars to the front suspension pick-up points crucial? Not in an essentially stock, 165hp 2.5RS that I drive everyday. The 'X' style door bar would be nice should I slide sideways into a tree at speed, but let's face it, this is not likely to happen unless the car is rallied frequently. You are comparing my car to purpose built rally cars that cost upwards of $50,000-$100,000.

Considering that I drive my car everyday to work, there were a few modifications done to improve livability.

FYI, I mostly autox and occasionally compete in TSD's and an odd rallyx. Before anyone jumps on me having a rollcage for this type of racing, let me explain. I should have a second car in a few months so I can get this one more into amateur racing. I am planning on entering the local hillclimb scene towards the end of this summer. These events do not absolutely require rollcages, but the way the rules are written, you will not be competitive without one. They have factors (can't recall what exactly they call them) that your raw time is multiplied by to even out the competition. Racing without a cage adds something like 10% to your total time. I also plan on attending some more high speed driving schools. The cage is a safe piece of mind whenever on a racetrack.

A few things about the cage:

1. The door bars were reduced from the 'X' style to the single bar mostly because of the work that would be involved in putting the bars through the dash. On the drivers side, the bars would have necessitated moving the fuse box (bit of work) and hood release latch. Not to mention other electricals and heating ducts, etc, etc.

2. The cage also came with two small bars that would go through the firewall and attach to the front suspension mounting points. This is basically an engine out job, which is very unnecessary in a car used for leisure racing. Those two small bars would have probably cost as much to install as the rest of the cage. This would also have required removal of the A/C system, since it would be directly in the way of installation and next to impossible to relocate.

3. No, it is not welded to the A-pillars, B-pillars, or roof. Remember, this is a daily driver - at least for now. There are a few reasons not to do this. Point#1: simple aesthetic reasons. I know this is unreasonable for installing a rollcage, but considering point number two, it is more of a bonus. Point #2: Welding to the A-pillars may lead to stress fractures in the windshield. I don't particularly like the thought of replacing windshields every time I hit a bump hard. Point#3: Welding to the roof or pillars may cause the paint to bubble on the outside of the car warranting a repaint on some parts(= more $$). Windows would have also had to come out.

4. The cage did not include a bar crossing the sunroof. Not needed for FIA regulations I suppose. I am contemplating getting one as well as extra bars from the main hoop behind the seats to the driveline tunnel in the center of the car. Only time will tell....

5. The cage is fully welded in with the rear portion connected at the upper rear strut mount. I know that without the front strut mount bars the cage is not as rigid as it can be but none the less, it stiffens the car a great deal. In fact, the car understeers more than I'd like, even with the 20mm sway bar. My Prodrive suspension has a bit of trouble coping with the stiffness of the chassis. A new, stiffer suspension is on the wishlist.

As you can see there were some compromises made, mostly due to the unique situation that I am in. A full cage requires an entire gutting of the car, from engine to interior. Seem welding would also have been nice, but that wasn't in the budget, nor in the time constraints. Since my car isn't a stripped out rally car (unfortunately) I was afforded some freedom on the design and installation of the cage.

JD

P.S. On a side note, at Carlisle I noticed that most of the 'hardcore' drag cars had rollcages that didn't go anywhere near the roof. In fact, some were a good 5-6" from the roof line. What's the point of that? Is it some sort of drag racing regulation? Seems to me that in a roll the drivers head would me mashed down when the roof collapsed. Just an observation.

[This message has been edited by Dobes (edited May 30, 2000).]
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Old 05-30-2000, 09:59 PM   #9
Tyrmeltr
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2013 Impreza WRX 5D
Plasma Blue Pearl

Post

I apologize if you thought I was giving your cage a "thumbs down". Damn internet, face to face this would have come out different. Can't a guy ask some questions, and voice some concerns, whithout the other getting all defensive?

RalliSpec is a first rate shop IMHO. It is a super-clean install, and I did point out that it was "alot safer than stock", which says alot, don't you think? Does that sound like lack of confidence? It is a Sparco cage after all.

I asked those questions because I AM building a rally car, and needed clarifiaction regarding the Sparco unit. As you pointed out, for my purposes theese omitted features are necessary, and beneficial.

I thank you for your explaniton, and completely understand you reasoning. Sounds like you got a good thing going. Please don't think I was trying to piss on your parade. Again, I apologize foar ANY misunderstanding

Keep your Subie slideways!

Regards,

Arik Kadosh
98 Impreza turbo (2.2l)
SPD and Renner tuned
4WD Open Class ProRally soon!

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Old 05-31-2000, 10:11 AM   #10
Dobes
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Apology accepted. I just wanted to make sure others reading the thread don't get the impression that I just have it for 'show' or that it is anything other than a quality job. I guess I should really say modified Group A cage from now on so I don't mislead anyone.

As I understand it, you have the same exact cage, albeit uninstalled. To get the maximum benefit from it the car really needs to be fully disassembled which I'm sure you are doing for the open class setup. I wish I had the time or means to go ahead with a project like that, but unfortunately I don't.
However, I wish you luck on your build up and hope you keep everyone informed as to your progress. I'm sure that everyone will be interested, especially if there are unforeseen problems that they could benefit from knowing about. I sure know I could have used a little more information about it before going down this road.

The way I look at it, there are plenty of people that want a cage, but few who are prepared to deal with the compromises that come along with it. I just want to be sure people have a clear picture of what's involved before they try this. I'd like to avoid stories of $400, fully installed rollcages because it's absolutely misleading.


JD
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Old 05-31-2000, 11:48 AM   #11
R Diamond
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98 2.5RS Turbo (sold)

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Dobes, when does the lease run out?

This is a great thread -- I'll keep it in mind when I'm ready to convert my RS into a track car (I won't sell it!)

By the way, I can attest first hand that Dobes' cage is top-notch. Tyrmelter, are you tall? If so, you do not want an X-brace on the roof. At 6'4 with helmet on, I had to tilt my head a bit to the right when sitting in Jeff's car. I can only imagine how much of a headache (literally) an X-brace would be.

Can you explain a bit more about how the Prodrive setup can't keep up with the cage? I'm curious about that.
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Old 05-31-2000, 01:16 PM   #12
ColinL
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Yeah, but a real racecar can't have seat sliders or a reclining seatback. Get rid of the sliders and you've gained at least 2 inches of headroom.
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Old 05-31-2000, 02:43 PM   #13
Dobes
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Richard:

When turning into a corner quickly a lot of weight gets suddenly transferred to the outside wheels. Without a rollcage there is a bit of chassis flex that slows this weight transfer down. However, with the cage, this weight gets transferred a lot quicker compressing the springs faster and harder because of the momentum (Any physics guys want to chime in?). Having higher spring rates would decrease this spring compression, reducing body roll to a more desirable level.

Additionally, this rapid weight transfer causes the car to respond a bit quicker. However, there is a flipside to this coin - the tail can come loose a lot faster than on a stock car so you have to be that much quicker catching it.

Perhaps someone could elaborate a bit more on the subject, as it is kind of hard to descibe.

Another attempt at an explanation: Picture a see-saw. The faster you see-saw (similar to a car leaning into a corner) the more leg muscle (or higher spring rate) it takes to keep you from hitting the ground (bottoming out on the bumpstops). Does that sound right?

JD

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Old 05-31-2000, 04:18 PM   #14
N/A
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2003 Echo-daily car
silver

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Dobes-I like the cage. It was a good choice, since it allows you to keep almost all of your factory interior. It also allowed you to use the racing harness with the mounting point on the bar itself in the back. Any word on how much weight it added to the car? Does anybody still sit in your backseat? Oh and nice color matching the bar to the rally blue car.
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Old 05-31-2000, 07:58 PM   #15
Superu
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i've been wondering that too. i have a sedan. i'm pretty sure that big X across the back window will keep anyone out of the back seet except maybe the trunk monkey. But i've seen cages for the impreza that don't have that X across the back, it's only got the bars going down the sides. Does anyone know if that let's people sit in the back?
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Old 05-31-2000, 09:09 PM   #16
patr
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Location: Vancouver, BC, CANADA
Post

If you want to see a "real" cage installed (no offense to any other cages, but this is a 2.5 RS installation for ProRally with SAFETY and CAR STIFFNESS and CAR ROLLABILITY the #1 concerns) see the following:

P.S. This is NOT my car.
http://www.rocketrally.com/photos/00...e-cage-photos/


I actually did almost exactly what Dobes did because I wanted a daily driver/racer, but then realized the error in my ways and went full race. Not doing the front towers was my biggest, worst mistake ever. I also had a single door bar and no stump bar (the roof diagonal).

Recently I've asked for: door X, stump bar, front tower mounting, additional rear bracing.

The cars DO flex if you beat them hard enough.

Dave Clark did the cage in the pictures and my cage. He is known in the Northwest as one of the premiere cage builders (that is his primary business). Ask any Porsche dealer/owner.
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Old 05-31-2000, 09:12 PM   #17
patr
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Post

DOh. I forgot to say 2 things:

1) ignore the Porsche photos - they are just examples of "professional fitting" into coachwork.

2) My cage *is* tied in to the roof and A-pillars and B-pillars, even though the interior trim and headliner is still in. The Bs were done through the seatbelt bolt holes.
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