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05-25-2000, 11:08 PM | #1 |
Scooby Newbie
Member#: 1161
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: long island, n.y
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anti -lift kits(whats the deal)
ive heard about the mrt anti-lift kits and now the whiteline kits whats the deal? is the kit something to take the lean out of the front end or does it not lift up as much when you launch. i have alot of friends with hondas and when i raced my buddy with his si thay all said it looked like the ass of my car was going to touch the ground. i beat him anyway!! well someone fill me in please, thanks
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05-26-2000, 07:47 AM | #2 |
Scooby Specialist
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Location: Beaverton, OR, USA
Vehicle:1995 Supra Turbo Red |
For a thread about the anti-lift kit on the 22B board, go to: http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000129.html You might need an account though.... In summary, the kit "...reduces lift on corner exit when accelerating and reduces power-induced understeer significantly." (Mike Tuckwood, www.22b.com) Basically, your car won't lift/dive as much. Sean |
05-26-2000, 08:16 AM | #3 |
Moderator Member#: 922
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First off... Whiteline makes the Anti-Lift kit.
Secondly, the kit changes the castor of the frot wheels, meaning that it creates more camber as you turn the wheel since it changes the actual geometery of the front end. The wheel on the outside of the turn gets more negative camber while the wheel on the inside of the turn gets more positive camber. Effects are supposed to make the steering handle like it should in this car, plus I think it does have an effect on the lift of the front end under acceleration but honestly, I think that part is BS since I can't prove it in my head how it does so. I would think to do so you'd need heavier springs on the back end. BTW, the Honda guys... Don't listen to them. They aren't taking into consideration that our cars launch like RWD cars with just more traction up front. Squat is VERY common in a RWD launch. |
05-26-2000, 10:27 AM | #4 |
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I don't know how it does it either, but the anti-lift kits really do reduce front end lift. I don't have a kit myself, but there are a couple guys here on the board that do (Adam Bloom, for instance), and it sounds like the kit works pretty well.
I will probably get a kit myself one of these days (once I ensure they'll fit on a Legacy, which I think it should). Pat Olsen '99 Legacy 2.5GT 5 speed sedan |
05-26-2000, 11:00 AM | #5 |
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Hmmm....I wonder what would work best, the anti-lift kit, a set camber/CASTOR plates (not just camber)? How about both? Any ideas anyone? I wonder if Paul Eklund or Pat Ricard are running ALK's. Later all, and keep 'dem Subies slideways!
Arik |
05-26-2000, 05:43 PM | #6 |
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8Complex, thanks for the insight! As far as I know, there are no camber/castor plates available yet. I have been pushing Ground Control to get on the ball. We need I-Club members to bombard them with request for this item. Later all.
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05-26-2000, 11:43 PM | #7 |
Former Vendor
Member#: 39
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Hainesport, NJ, USA
Vehicle:98 Prodrive WRC |
The Whiteline Anti-lift kit (as sold by MRT, RalliSpec, etc.) increases positive castor by 1/2 degree. It does this by changing the location of the front control arm rear mounting point by a small amount. More positive castor increases steering effort slightly, increases self correction slightly, and increases camber angle in the negative direction in a turn (helps dynamic camber changes...the main reason for the upgrade). Dynamic camber is the actual camber of the wheel under load and ideally you want a dynamic negative camber of .25 degrees for optimal lateral traction. MacPherson strut designs are inherently bad when it comes to dynamic camber changes (they go very positive) so any improvement you can make is worthwhile. The anti-lift characteristics come from the geometry change as well and indicate a reduced tendency to understeer at corner exit under power. The anti-lift characteristics are fairly minimal...but the anti-lift kit is one of those items that you install when you are looking for tenths of a second on track or autox (although technically changing the suspension mounting points throws you into street prepared(??)). The other big advantage of the anti-lift kit is the use of a polyurethane bushing which will reduce the geometry changes that occurr under load and improves traction. And just in case you were wondering...yes we have them in stock and they are $185. Might be a nice addition to that adjustable swaybar we sell as well
RalliSpec 856-755-9009 |
05-27-2000, 12:33 AM | #8 |
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Tyrmeltr - To answer that you'd have to take a few of things into consderation... Degree of camber at rest and the degree that your suspension changes by when you are under hard cornering and the car is fully rolled. Theoretically, I believe you want to have your tires perfectly vertical from the ground to have the best traction, so if you were to tune your castor angle to the amount of change in camber that was caused by roll under different cornering circumstances (tighter turns, looser turns, spring resistance, etc) then you'd end up with a number at which to base yourself off of.
The anti-lift kits cause .5° castor, which I believe means another .5° camber when your wheels are fully turned - probably not nearly as much as body roll would cause the suspension to go into positive camber under cornering. You'd probably need more, but I'm not totally positive. For that matter, are there camber&castor plates for our cars? I thought there were just camber plates... |
05-27-2000, 11:07 AM | #9 |
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"Dynamic camber is the actual camber of the wheel under load and ideally you want a dynamic negative camber of .25 degrees for optimal lateral traction." - RalliSpec
Just curious, where did you get this number? I would think that the most accurate numbers we could come up with would be if we calculated from the actual suspension geometery since I don't think the front wheels gains negative camber under load (braking or cornering) until near the top of their travel - I could very well be wrong though since the only diagram I've ever seen of suspension components in action were of a Legacy on the Japanese Subaru site. |
05-28-2000, 08:24 AM | #10 |
Former Vendor
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Location: Marshall, North Carolina
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For the Legacy guys out there they will work on the Legacy and the Impreza since they both share the same lower control arm. I have the Whiteline ALK in stock for $190.00 with FREE shipping in the U.S.
Dale Teague (Teague's Auto) http://www.teaguesauto.com For all your Subaru needs. |
05-28-2000, 09:11 AM | #11 |
Moderator Member#: 922
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ROFLMAO Geez... Like it is going to be the next best thing. Guys, I have news for you, you hqave to do an alignment after you put it on to do the job right... I doubt too many people will want to do this themselves, let alone pop the $190 it'd take to get the kit.
Honestly, I think that this is about a $50 kit to have made, even in low quantities, so I won't buy it personally. I'm hoping I get to check out someone's kit and measure it out and see what I can have a few made for... |
05-29-2000, 01:58 PM | #12 |
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The ALK does take a fair amount of compliance out of the front suspension due the Poly bushing. All the front wheel wiggle, hop etc. is gone. Much crisper turn in as well.
The Caster addition is small. My RS a MY99RS has 3.84 Left and 3.65 Right with the ALK. The stock spec. range is 2.08 and 4.08. The ALK may add some Caster but not outside the stock spec range. However, due to the Poly bushing I am sure the dynamic range is much narrower than with the stock bush material. If you want a discertation on the why you don't want alot of Caster on a AWD car just ask Mike Shields. He has done a fair amount of work on this topic and believes that too much caster is not conducive to a good handling AWD car. |
05-29-2000, 07:36 PM | #13 |
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Caster an camber can be adjusted with the plates made by DMS (front cas/cam, rear caster only). There may be a set available from Cusco, but I am not sure...I am sure at least one other company, maybe GAB, has this ability. Too much caster/ camber is not good for AWD handling, but the adjustibility
is good for that last bit of suspension (don't forget ease) tuning. For those that care, they are available in BLUE:-) |
05-29-2000, 09:49 PM | #14 |
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blueeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
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05-30-2000, 07:38 AM | #15 |
Scooby Newbie
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Vehicle:1999 Impretza 2.5 silver |
The ALK is NOT street prepared legal. It is however Street Mod legal (Turbo guys buy this now).
It does work, it does require minor adjustments to the TOE of the front end (you can do this with string or a measuring tape). And I am looking at the kit now and if you think that a couple pounds of machined aluminum, bushings and nuts, not to mention the R&D time that Whiteline put into this kit cost them $50 a set, you are wrong. I think Whiteline is making considerably less off these than you think. 190 bucks is a very fair price, Teague's Auto/Rallispec (since you both sell them). And free shipping aint bad either. And BTW, it didnt cost Subaru 18,500 bucks to make a base RS, so why would you spend that much to buy one? Because its a fair market price. And no, I have not installed this ever on my car, I have seen the math, it works. But its not legal for STS, so I cant put it on yet. But when I get the cams and go SM next year, I will. This is not a BS mod, it works. Eric Silver 99 RS |
05-30-2000, 08:44 AM | #16 |
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Hey Eric,
Where did you see the math for this kit? I would be interested in taking a look at that. Do you have access to some calculations that was used in the development of this kit? Randy |
05-30-2000, 08:51 AM | #17 |
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It may not bne leagle in STS but I just ran in sts this weekend wit it on! They didnt even look, plus with some dirt/tar under ur car I am not sure if they can even tell u have it. no one knows our cars so many poeople dont know what to look for u know? I like the kit alot and had fun with it
keith |
05-30-2000, 09:41 AM | #18 |
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rrsettgast- no, I meant that what they claim for an additon to the castor specs, is correct, and according to 'the math' does what was mentioned before. It will increase camber when the wheel is turned. My post may have been alittle misleading now that I reread it, but what I really mean is that the claims are correct, it does what it is supposed to do. But Im sure that if you picked up a serious racing/suspension mathmatics book or have access to a mechanical engineer, they could explain the formula's needed to determine how much castor effects camber when the wheel is turned. There are factors that need to be researched in every car to figure it all out. Probably the easiest way, would be to measure the camber with the wheels full lock, with one of those bubble camber gauges, then install the ALK and measure again.
I was really just trying to say that its not a rip off, even at almost 200 bucks for a chunk of metal. Keith-thats cheating. Its fine at the local level, especially since you are in STS, which is supposed to be very creative, suspension wise. But, it could seriously hurt you in the long run to be found in violation of the rules at a National level event. It is relatively out in the open, unlike the lightweight bumper kits. They would have to tear off the bumpers to see them. No I dont have them either, that would be cheating. Eric Silver 99 RS |
05-30-2000, 10:52 AM | #19 |
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Eric - Honestly, there would be very little r&d to make a kit like this. An engineer would look at it and say "ok, here is the curve in which the camber takes effect. here is the curve in which you normally turn at. given stock camber and the recommended casual racing camber, how can we make it change from one to the other under those circumstances." Then all he'd need to do is figure out how much of a change in geometery f/r would change it to the camber needed at full lock.
With a solid modeling program, it wouldn't take me more then maybe a few hours to figure out how much we have to move that rear arm mount. From there, all it'd take is a few measurements and some raw stock & machinery. I'm guessing including a day or two at an absolute tops to create a kit like this in drawing format with all stages included, including the research it'd take to get the optimal camber (which I guarantee you, this kit doesn't come near). BTW, to put it in simpler terms, 1° castor would cause 1° more camber when the wheel is turned 90° from straight (which as you all know, we never get to). It is on a curve, however, and if you turn your front wheels 45°, you are getting about 71% of that castor angle, about .71° extra camber. Now I believe that they said this kit causes another .5° castor, which would equate to about .35° extra camber at a 45° wheel lock. If you <a href="http://www.mrtrally.com.au/howantilift.htm" target="_blank">read their page</a> you'll see that they say : "The 0.5 deg. additional static positive castor coupled with the low compliance bush means over 1.0 deg. more positive dynamic castor." My guess from this one is that the bushing doesn't flex as much as stock (obviously about the same amount of not-flexing as the difference between the mounting hardware they give you (which I believe is close to .5" thicker from visuals only)) that it causes more castor under hard cornering situations. |
05-30-2000, 10:54 AM | #20 |
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BTW, if replacing that bushing causes another .5° castor under hard cornering circumstances, I believe just replacing that bushing will be of significant help, plus (I'm not sure of the rules on STS class here yet) I think that'll still leave you in STS class since you aren't technically changing geometery.
[This message has been edited by 8Complex (edited May 30, 2000).] |
05-30-2000, 11:04 AM | #21 |
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Eric, it's only cheating if you get caught! J/K Seroiusly though, many top teams in motorsport cheat, They tend to call it "creative interpretation of the rules" or something to that matter. I am against it, but I think an certain amount is unavoidable. However, I also feel that masterful driving will overcome any form of *minor* cheating,
The fact is alot fo this so called "cheating" is ticky-tack BS. Some guy beats you by a 10th of a second, and you say "no fair you had an ALK!". BWAHAHAHA. Although the rules would go in your favor, you would come off looking like a wuss. If someone beats me with an ALK in that situation, I would never protest, because I wouldn't believe that it made the difference. Like a man, I would accept the fact that I was beaten. I understand a turbo or racing coilovers, or something else that extreme being a valid protest though. Seems to me, that the worst drivers are the best scrutineers/whiners. Their ego won't allow for them to be beaten , so they go out of their way to find a piss-ant little reason to rationalize their defeat. Those geeks need to get a life, or find another hobby like collecting stamps or something. 2 cents, from someone who could care less if you ran ALK's in stock class. Later all, and keep your Subies slideways! Arik Kadosh 98 Impreza Turbo (2.2l) SPD and Renner tuned 4WD open class ProRally soon! |
05-30-2000, 02:31 PM | #22 |
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Eric - Honestly? I learned all that in High School in my freshman year. Calculating it out isn't that hard, I just happened to have a program I could use to draw a circle and a few lines and measure them more accurately.
Just draw a circle (the more accurately the better) and then draw a line straight up and straight left of the center. Make sure to draw them to the edge of the circle at least, if not a little outside of it. Now draw a line at about 45° (half way inbetween the other two) to the edge from the center. Measure from the very top of the circle to the center (radius) and from the intersection of the 45° line to the horizontal line. Now divide the second distance by the first one and you've got the percentage of the angle it changes. It's all simple math, actually. And you wouldn't believe the parts I've seen drawn on napkins over the years. BTW, looking back I should have stated it differently - that the costs of making the parts, minus r&d, is probably less then $50. I haven't seen the part not on a car (just on the MRT site on the car itself) so the price could be off if they don't make them in-house themselves (there is a big difference between price of making them in-house and sourcing them out in a lot of parts cases). (Edited in) BTW #2, there actually isn't much more to creating a part then designing it in some cases, especially that one. Take a look at a pic of the original, it was pretty thin sheet metal from what it looks like. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell that a machined piece of aluminum or stainless steel will be MUCH more secure then that. [This message has been edited by 8Complex (edited May 30, 2000).] |
05-30-2000, 06:59 PM | #23 |
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Great! You got my point. Which was to anyone thinking of buying this part, it is worth the 200 bucks. Sometimes when we have access to certain things we take them for granted and forget what its like for those without certain 'connections' if you will. To joe average scooby owner, they might not understand how this part works, or functions with the rest of the suspension. I think we have explained that, and determined that this particular piece has a function. I feel it is worth the 200 bucks, some may not or may wish to develop their own custom part. To each their own. Thanks for the technical info 8Complex.
Eric Silver 99 RS |
05-31-2000, 12:07 AM | #24 |
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Cool, 8complex, thanks for the info. And how long did you spend in school learning to do that, how much does you system cost? Nothing is free, and when you are a company selling parts all over the world there is alot more to designing a part then just, well, designing the part. Im not flamming you for your opinion, I just think its worth alot more than 50 bucks.
Tyrmeltr, Don't think for a moment that it matters at the local level. Cheat to your hearts content. If you think people care about looking like a wuss if it means they get the National Championship instead of the 'cheater' who 'creatively interpreted' the rules you are wrong. Last year a 100K Alex Job Porche won AP. It was protested for costing too much. How stupid do you think that guy looked. "He won cuz they spent so much money, Im poor and cant afford that so he shouldnt be allowed to compete in that car". BAWWAAAAAAA. How rediculous. Two paddock spots down from that winning Porche sat an original (yes ORIGINAL) Cobra that today costs more than 4 times the Porche. It placed back in the field so noone protested it for anything. The point is that these people take Solo2 very serious and for what ever reason really do look under cars in impound. It only takes 50 bucks to protest someones car. If you are right, you get your money back. If you are wrong, they keep the money. It takes alot more than 50 bucks to prepare for and win a National Championship and I for one am not going to do anything to have a potential win taken from me for a rules violation. As big or small as anything I do to my car is, it will always be withing the rules, creatively interpreted or not. BTW, I asked the head of rules intrepetation for the SCCA about the ALK, he specifically said it was not STS or STR legal, not Street Prepared legal either. But in SM it is OK. So, turbo guys, have at it. There is no creatively interpreting, no it is not legal. Eric Silver 99 RS edited for spelling. [This message has been edited by Eric (edited May 30, 2000).] |
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