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Old 06-07-2004, 01:11 AM   #1
Big Turkey
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Default Went to the track again.. something has to be wrong.

After tuning my map for spoolup, fixing my exhaust leak and retuning the timing map a little bit, the car felt great. So I decided to go to the track to see if it made a difference.

Here is my best run:

60' - 1.858
1/8 - 8.1 @ 88.43 mph
1/4 - 12.621 @ 108.66

The highest trap of the night was 109.17. The highest trap last time was 110.83. Weather was about the same as last time, low 80s, but this time boost was 1psi higher. The car felt like it had alot more pull than before.. but obviously not.

Here is a log from the run above:

Code:
 5167  +9.8 4.0 101  60    00   W/B   +7.8   47.0 +20.0  -4.0 280.00 3.7  12.52 
 5151 +12.3 4.0 101  60    00   W/B   +9.0   50.2 +20.0  -4.0 LCM.   3.7  12.06 
 5128 +15.1 4.0 101  80    00   W/B   +9.5   54.5 +19.0  -3.0 280.00 3.9  12.56 
 4761 +16.8 3.9 101  90    00   W/B  +10.7   50.9 +18.4  -3.3 280.00 3.8  11.61 
 5350 +18.6 4.2 100  90    00   W/B   +7.4   63.0 +20.4  -3.3 280.00 4.0  10.78 
 5564 +19.8 4.2 101  90    00   W/B   +9.2   67.2 +21.3  -3.6 280.00 4.1  10.87 
 6435 +20.4 4.3 100  90    00   W/B  +15.4   76.2 +22.0  -2.8 280.00 4.2  10.73 
 6816 +21.5 4.3 100 100    00   W/B  +16.2   76.8 +23.0  -2.5 280.00 4.2  10.80 
 7262 +21.9 4.4 101 100    00   W/B  +16.3   73.3 +23.0  -2.4 280.00 4.3  11.06 
 6587 +21.7 3.9 102  90    00   W/B  +24.0   52.0 +22.0  -2.8 LCM.   3.8  14.15 
 5464 +20.6 3.8 101  80    00   W/B  +17.7   40.8 +19.2  -3.6 LCM.   3.5  >25:1
 4688 +18.2 3.6 101  70    00   W/B  +13.3   39.8 +19.0  -4.5 280.00 3.6  >25:1
 4741 +17.0 3.7 101  70    00   W/B  +13.6   47.2 +19.0  -4.5 280.00 3.7  15.80 
 4859 +16.4 3.8 101  80    00   W/B  +15.1   50.4 +18.9  -3.1 280.00 3.8  11.84 
 5112 +16.6 4.0 101  80    00   W/B  +14.1   57.3 +19.8  -2.9 280.00 3.9  11.24 
 5299 +18.0 4.0 101  80    00   W/B  +11.2   59.3 +20.4  -2.7 280.00 4.0  10.87 
 5592 +19.2 4.1 101  90    00   W/B  +12.7   63.2 +21.4  -3.6 280.00 4.0  10.81 
 5747 +20.0 4.2 100  90    00   W/B  +14.1   68.2 +22.0  -3.6 280.00 4.1  10.90 
 6172 +20.8 4.3 100  90    00   W/B  +13.7   75.8 +22.0  -3.5 280.00 4.1  10.90 
 6265 +21.5 4.3 100 100    00   W/B  +17.1   75.0 +22.0  -2.6 280.00 4.2  10.95 
 6523 +21.7 4.3 100 100    00   W/B  +17.5   75.4 +22.0  -2.6 280.00 4.2  11.02 
 6788 +22.5 4.3 100 100    00   W/B  +18.3   78.2 +23.0  -2.6 280.00 4.2  11.02 
 6930 +21.9 4.3 100 100    00   W/B  +18.0   75.3 +23.0  -2.5 280.00 4.2  11.12 
 7153 +21.9 4.4 101  90    00   W/B  +18.0   77.3 +23.0  -2.6 280.00 4.3  11.24 
 6626 +21.0 3.9 101  90    00   W/B  +25.3   51.9 +22.0  -2.8 LCM.   3.8  13.56 
 4662 +18.6 3.7 101  70    00   W/B  +15.7   45.1 +19.0  -4.8 280.00 3.8  >25:1
 5081 +18.0 4.0 101  70    00   W/B  +14.7   56.9 +19.6  -2.2 280.00 3.9  >25:1
 5420 +17.8 4.0 101  80    00   W/B  +13.5   57.7 +20.9  -3.5 280.00 3.9  12.06 
 5527 +18.0 4.1 100  90    00   W/B  +14.4   60.0 +21.0  -3.6 280.00 4.0  10.62 
 5420 +19.6 4.1 100  90    00   W/B  +14.6   62.8 +21.1  -3.6 280.00 4.0  10.87 
 5592 +20.4 4.1 100  90    00   W/B  +15.3   64.5 +21.6  -3.6 280.00 4.0  10.96 
 5747 +20.6 4.2 101  90    00   W/B  +15.3   69.5 +21.9  -3.7 280.00 4.0  11.01 
 5858 +21.0 4.2 100  90    00   W/B  +15.0   67.0 +22.0  -3.7 280.00 4.0  10.99 
 6016 +21.5 4.2 100  90    00   W/B  +15.8   69.9 +22.0  -3.3 280.00 4.1  11.01 
 6184 +22.1 4.2 100 100    00   W/B  +15.5   72.8 +22.0  -3.0 280.00 4.1  11.06 
 6349 +22.1 4.2 100 100    00   W/B  +15.8   74.2 +22.0  -2.6 280.00 4.1  11.08 
 6325 +22.3 4.3 100  90    00   W/B  +17.8   70.1 +22.0  -3.1 280.00 4.1  11.08 
 6422 +21.7 4.3 100  90    00   W/B  +18.7   73.0 +22.0  -2.8 280.00 4.2  11.12 
 6548 +21.0 4.3 100  90    00   W/B  +18.6   75.2 +22.0  -2.8 280.00 4.2  11.24 
 6734 +21.0 4.3 100  90    00   W/B  +18.7   75.2 +22.4  -2.8 280.00 4.2  11.24 
 6693 +21.2 4.3 100  90    00   W/B  +18.8   74.1 +22.9  -2.8 280.00 4.2  11.23 
 6858 +21.5 4.3 100 100    00   W/B  +19.2   74.3 +23.0  -2.6 280.00 4.2  11.28 
 6930 +21.0 4.3 100  90    00   W/B  +19.1   73.4 +23.0  -2.7 280.00 4.2  11.34 
 7017 +21.0 4.3  98  90    00   W/B  +19.2   73.9 +23.0  -2.6 280.00 4.2  11.43 
 7122 +20.6 4.3 100  90    00   W/B  +19.3   72.2 +23.0  -2.6 280.00 4.2  11.56 
 6720 +20.2 3.9 101  90    00   W/B  +26.3   51.0 +22.1  -2.8 LCM.   3.8  12.59 
 4782 +19.0 3.8 101  80    00   W/B  +16.6   44.1 +17.7  -3.2 LCM.   3.4  24.81 
 4923 +17.6 4.0 100  70    00   W/B  +13.6   58.9 +19.2  -2.2 280.00 3.8  >25:1
 5249 +17.4 4.0 100  80    00   W/B  +12.3   57.2 +19.8  -3.6 280.00 3.8  13.59 
 5232 +17.6 4.0 100  90    00   W/B  +12.9   57.0 +19.7  -2.7 280.00 3.9  10.96 
 5316 +18.6 4.0 100  90    00   W/B  +12.0   57.3 +20.1  -2.7 280.00 3.9  11.24 
 5411 +20.2 4.1 100  90    00   W/B  +11.8   59.2 +20.4  -3.0 280.00 3.9  11.28 
 5376 +20.6 4.1 100  90    00   W/B  +11.7   60.4 +20.6  -2.8 280.00 4.0  11.20 
 5393 +21.5 4.1 100 100    00   W/B  +12.1   61.0 +20.8  -3.1 280.00 3.9  11.23 
 5473 +22.7 4.1 100 100    00   W/B  +12.8   60.4 +21.1  -3.1 280.00 4.0  11.30 
 5555 +22.9 4.1 100 100    00   W/B  +12.9   60.7 +21.1  -3.1 280.00 4.0  11.34 
 5564 +22.9 4.1 100 100    00   W/B  +13.3   62.5 +21.4  -3.1 280.00 4.0  11.30 
 5717 +22.5 4.1 102 100    00   W/B  +13.7   65.4 +21.7  -3.1 280.00 4.0  11.28 
 5698 +22.1 4.1 100 100    00   W/B  +14.4   64.8 +21.7  -3.1 280.00 4.0  11.23 
 5698 +22.5 4.1 100 100    00   W/B  +13.9   64.5 +21.9  -3.1 280.00 4.0  11.23 
 5757 +22.7 4.2 100 100    00   W/B  +15.1   65.5 +22.0  -3.1 280.00 4.0  11.14 
 5858 +22.3 4.2 100 100    00   W/B  +15.1   67.4 +22.0  -3.1 280.00 4.0  11.01 
 5837 +22.5 4.2 100  90    00   W/B  +15.1   65.9 +22.0  -3.7 280.00 4.0  11.01 
 5889 +21.9 4.2 100 100    00   W/B  +15.3   67.0 +22.0  -3.1 280.00 4.1  11.05 
 5973 +21.5 4.2 100  90    00   W/B  +15.2   66.9 +22.0  -3.7 280.00 4.0  11.02 
 6218 +22.1 4.2 100 100    00   W/B  +14.6   68.8 +22.0  -2.7 280.00 4.1  11.12 
 6049 +21.9 4.2 101 100    00   W/B  +14.6   68.8 +22.0  -3.0 280.00 4.0  11.11 
 6093 +21.7 4.2 100  90    00   W/B  +14.7   68.3 +22.0  -3.5 LCM.   4.1  10.96 
 5678 +19.2 2.1   0  00    00   W/B  +11.2   48.4 ECU.   -5.7 LCM.   2.6  12.59
Before I retuned the timing, it was a flat 17deg. of advance at full boost, then started to ramp up to 21deg after 6000RPMs. This time I ramped timing up at 5000RPMs, and ramped up to 22deg. of advance at redline.

There was a run when the car leaned out bad.. hit about 17:1 AFR. I had more than half a tank of gas so that wasn't it. The logs show a lean spot and then it goes away. After that.. the motor idles a little funny. It will idle fine, but then every once in awhile it will stumble and the AFR's go a little lean.. around 16:1, then settle back down. Maybe I blew off a vacuum hose?

I'm about to do a compression check on the motor and change out the spark plugs.

What do you guys think is wrong? AFRs are good.. timing is decent, boost is high. I don't know why I lost power this time around.
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Old 06-07-2004, 03:19 AM   #2
Big Turkey
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Well, I just finished the compression test.

First off, the stupid fitting is stuck in one of the cylinders. I'll have to get some loctite tomorrow to get it out.

The motor was warm, but not hot, and the throttle was closed. Cooled maybe for about a hour before I did the first compression test. Here are the results:

#1: 130
#2: 145
#3: 140
#4: 115

Nice! Looks like that's two in a row for blowing #4. The car doesn't smoke... the only thing that made me check was that there had to a damn reason I'm down on power. I kinda had a feeling about this anyhow.

I spoke to someone and they mentioned to me that the motor was too cold and would produce lower results. Well I was just wanted to make sure that there wasn't a huge difference in the compression between the cylinders.. like you see above, lol.

Man I'm in too good of a mood right now.. it's scary.

Wally

Last edited by Big Turkey; 06-07-2004 at 03:49 PM.
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Old 06-07-2004, 04:02 AM   #3
kaos200
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Default

Quote:
Originally posted by Big Turkey
Well, I just finished the compression test.

First off, the stupid fitting is stuck in one of the cylinders. I'll have to get some loctite tomorrow to get it out.

The motor was warm, but not hot, and the throttle was closed. Cooled maybe for about a hour before I did the first compression test. Here are the results:

#1: 130
#2: 145
#3: 140
#4: 117

Nice! Looks like that's two in a row for blowing #4. The car doesn't smoke... the only thing that made me check was that there had to a damn reason I'm down on power. I kinda had a feeling about this anyhow.

I spoke to someone and they mentioned to me that the motor was too cold and would produce lower results. Well I was just wanted to make sure that there wasn't a huge difference in the compression between the cylinders.. like you see above, lol.

Man I'm in too good of a mood right now.. it's scary.

Wally
Sorry about that man I know how it goes....
And about the feeling good mood, yah, I got that too after removing my motor a few times, I shrugged it off and blamed it on lunacy
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Old 06-07-2004, 08:57 AM   #4
SW00P_G
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Quote:
Originally posted by Big Turkey
Well, I just finished the compression test.

Man I'm in too good of a mood right now.. it's scary.

Wally
I know how you feel. Sometimes it's better just to finally figure out what the problem is. Now you know, and knowing is half the battle. BTW I wonder if you were down on power when you ran that Z06??
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Old 06-07-2004, 10:00 AM   #5
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are you on stock motor and internals? i was under the impression you were on atleast a v.7 short block.
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Old 06-07-2004, 10:13 AM   #6
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the leanness was probably caused by a misfire on one cylinder sending lots of unburnt oxygen into the exhaust.

paul
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Old 06-07-2004, 12:18 PM   #7
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Semi-Offtopic:

Can someone point me into the direction on how to read a log?

Or semi-explain it?

Thanks for the help.
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Old 06-07-2004, 12:29 PM   #8
Big Turkey
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Quote:
Originally posted by SW00P_G
I know how you feel. Sometimes it's better just to finally figure out what the problem is. Now you know, and knowing is half the battle. BTW I wonder if you were down on power when you ran that Z06??
I don't know.. I was trapping a little bit higher last time.. almost 111mph and that was like 4 days after the Z06 run.

Yes, I'm on stock bottom end. I wish I had a V7 block, but if I upgraded I would go with the 257 and some cams.
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Old 06-07-2004, 01:32 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by D'sScooby
Semi-Offtopic:

Can someone point me into the direction on how to read a log?

Or semi-explain it?

Thanks for the help.
Code:
				Load	Knock				Mod	Mod		Mod
RPM	MAP	MAF	TPS	Site	Count	AFR	Ign#1	Inj#1	Ign	Fuel	Boost	
5659	-4.4	1.6	0	0	0	rich	10.6	8	ECU.	0	ECU.	1.1
5518	-3.8	3.4	101	10	0	17.6	32.4	46	ECU.	0	85	3.6
4214	1.1	3.8	101	10	0	rich	16.8	69	ECU.	0	80	3.7
Is this what you're looking for?
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Old 06-07-2004, 01:42 PM   #10
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BT:

It is hot an humid as heck. I think that's why you're trapping a little lower.

Regarding your compression, 145 to 130 is a bigger jump than 130 to 117. Are you sure you didn't do #4 last, and the motor was just too cold?

Blown pistons or rings usually have readings in the 60 - 90's or so don't they?
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Old 06-07-2004, 02:14 PM   #11
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texrex is right... see wally I told you, haha. get that damned fitting out of the plug hole and then retest when the motor is hot.. like a few mins after you turn it off. Or just make a friend do it while you go try to "get that red loctite to let go" you will have all the time in the world, haha.


Richard
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Old 06-07-2004, 02:20 PM   #12
Big Turkey
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Quote:
Originally posted by eightballrj
texrex is right... see wally I told you, haha. get that damned fitting out of the plug hole and then retest when the motor is hot.. like a few mins after you turn it off. Or just make a friend do it while you go try to "get that red loctite to let go" you will have all the time in the world, haha.


Richard
yeah I just left the car sitting there in the meantime.

Tim, I did the test in this order: 1, 3, 4, 2. The motor is now dead cold so I'm going to go back and do the test again and if I get similar results then I suppose my results from last night are accurate. Also, my 1/8th mile is the same as normal. 88mph. But this time I turned up the boost, and I lost 2mph in the back half. Something is wrong with the top end of the car.. and now the idle is all funny. And I'm getting horrible gas mileage too. Remember when I said I get about 290ish before the light came on? Well I went 178miles in 11.5 gallons last tank full..
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Old 06-07-2004, 02:54 PM   #13
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IByouneedanewmotor
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Old 06-07-2004, 03:21 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by gpatmac
Code:
				Load	Knock				Mod	Mod		Mod
RPM	MAP	MAF	TPS	Site	Count	AFR	Ign#1	Inj#1	Ign	Fuel	Boost	
5659	-4.4	1.6	0	0	0	rich	10.6	8	ECU.	0	ECU.	1.1
5518	-3.8	3.4	101	10	0	17.6	32.4	46	ECU.	0	85	3.6
4214	1.1	3.8	101	10	0	rich	16.8	69	ECU.	0	80	3.7
Is this what you're looking for?
Yep. Thanks. It gives me an idea what I'm looking at.
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Old 06-07-2004, 03:50 PM   #15
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If it where me... I would do another test on that motor with a diff gauge.. Dont pay attention to how high the readings are but rather to the difference between them. I like to have a warm motor when I do a comp test. Throttle open is a good thing. It lets the cyls get air with a lower resistance to pump up faster. I also like to remove all 4 plugs and then test each hole twice. This way the motor cranks fast and I have two data points to compare. At first glance it looks like #4 took some hits.. Which would not suprise me in the least bit... That motor has been through ALOT of st races with the old setup and the new one. If you have a knocked out ring its possible that you have a slight comp leak but as tex said... Most of the time when a cyl fails in an EJ its a real low reading and very obvious.. Might be time for a leak down test.. Maybe its the valves..... Something is going on though.. the AFR is in the ballpark.. The Advance is "typical" and the boost is there.. I would like to note that I noticed this car likes lots of advance to make power the last few times I tuned it... The map you are on now is not my tune and is yours and since I did not tune the car on pump fuel its hard to say.. you might try more advance.. Your car reminds me another customers that for some unexplained reason would never make power until I ran about 5 degrees over typical settings. Close monitoring of EGT is a good sign as to how that advance is effecting things.

P.S. Dont overlook clutch slippage. Its very possible that clutch is slipping continuos and smoothly up top. Seen that many times. Ever smell it?



C
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Old 06-07-2004, 06:04 PM   #16
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I smell the clutch every once in awhile... but it's never heavy. Just a hint here and there after a launch. Never during a roll run.

How do I know if it's the valves or the rings during a leakdown test? I just borrowed a leakdown tester and will do it on a cold motor tonight since all the plugs are already pulled out.

But first I have to get that fitting out of cylinder #1
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Old 06-07-2004, 06:32 PM   #17
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You hook up the leak down tester which will pump air into the cyl.. then rotate the engine with a breaker bar and socket on the crank pulley to TDC for that cyl. You dont actually need to know where TDC is.. Just turn the motor over until you get the highest reading on the leak down testers gauge.. Write that down.. thats the % of leak down. if you are over 5% on a Cyl then stop the motor at that highest reading and find out where the air is going... If its being pumped into the cyl and the leaking it has to be going somewhere:

Open the radiator cap.. Listen.. Air and bubbles? = head gasket

Remove the oil cap. Air rushing sound? feel the air? = Bad rings.

Listen at your tail pipe.. Air sound? = Bad exhaust valve seal or bent valve.

Listen at your turbo inlet pipe or airfilter.. Air sound? = Leaking Intake valves.

Expect some leakage.. A cool motor is not going to be sealed as tight as a warm one. Anything over 5-7% I start to get a bit concerned.. Normally with a bad ring or something you will get 20-30% or more leak down and its instantly obvious that your ****ed.


Clark
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Old 06-07-2004, 07:03 PM   #18
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All u need to do is go to autozone and dump allittle of that Restore stuff in the motor..... Duhhhh. Just kid'n i hope it was just a bad test you did man, I hate that damn #4 cylinder.
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Old 06-07-2004, 07:41 PM   #19
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The ECU timing numbers look low. Are those "normal" for your car?
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Old 06-07-2004, 10:04 PM   #20
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Richard, my ECU is reflashed by Clark to run safe values. Since we couldn't get the boost under 20psi, he didn't want me to run that much on the street so he made a very conservative map for me to drive around on daily.
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Old 06-08-2004, 11:18 AM   #21
neversatisfied
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Wow sucks to hear your having these problems. Hoe you get it figured out.
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Old 06-08-2004, 05:28 PM   #22
Big Turkey
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Just did a compression test again on another gauge. Compression showed 120 on #4, so we proceeded to do a leakdown.

We couldn't get crap for the leakdown.. then finally found where the crank was fighting back. I got 15% leakdown in #4 and couldn't figure out where it was leaking from. Checked the throttle body, nothing. Radiator cap.. nothing. Oil cap, it sounded like an ocean so I thought that was it. But when we depressurized the cylinder.. I listened to the oil cap again and it still sounded like an ocean. No rushing air.

So we went ahead and did another cylinder.. #3. Same results, 15%.

Finally I went ahead and had a friend do the leakdown while I go to the back and listen through the tailpipe. At 15% leakdown on cylinder 4.. I could hear the air rushing through the tailpipe like someone was blowing in my ear. I could even feel a small puff hitting my face.

I'm assuming my exhaust valves are gone?

What can I do to upgrade these mofos?

Wally
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Old 06-08-2004, 05:32 PM   #23
big_adventure
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Wally -

You should have kept running c16. Pump gas sucks...

Seriously, I hopw you get this worked out soon - you need a 400hp pass.

-Sean
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Old 06-08-2004, 05:50 PM   #24
AZScoobie
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Sounds like a leaking exhaust valve to me... Maybe you over revved the crap out of it one to many times? 15% is not bad if the other cyls are the same. Its really the comparison...

If in fact you have bent valves that puts you in one hell of a situation... Why? cause your heads are crap so its not worth repairing them. Of course you know this.. So the choice would be to get some tasty V8 heads... Probably around $1600. Sell yours off for boat anchors or book ends.

Wait.. you cant put JDm V8 heads on a Crappy US Ej205 shortblock..... Well you could but that would be like having a Jake put Ice on a Timex. Might as well get a shortblock while you are at it.. Woops.. Now your at $3000 easy.

Might as well pick up a V7 or V8 Long block 2.0. Sell your motor off and toss it in. Thats the cheapest way out of this.. But hey.. I would run the crap out of that EJ205 until its dead. Its certainly not dead now.. $500 would make sure its dead in the form of a 75 shot... Take down some LS1 boys until she pops.

C
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Old 06-08-2004, 06:03 PM   #25
03WRXMA
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Damn, sucks about the valves, hopefully the bottomend is ok!
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