TD04 Mitsu Turbo

Redkin · 02-19-2001, 06:05 PM

Someone please correct me if I am wrong. I was under the impression that the WRX utilizes the Mistu TD04 turbo. This is the same turbo that I have on my '92 Talon Tsi that DSMers effectively boost to 18psi+. If this turbo is adequate to near 300Hp levels for DSMers, why would it be much different to Scoobys? I do understand that there is more to achieving 300+hp than just increasing boost, but from what I have gathered, this turbo seems to be under-rated on this forum.

Any and all feedback is welcomed...

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DeliciouSpeed · 02-19-2001, 07:09 PM

The turbo on a 92 DSM is a TD05, sorry Jack.
Edit-The 95up had TD04s

[This message has been edited by DeliciouSpeed (edited February 19, 2001).]

BlownToBits · 02-19-2001, 07:18 PM

Actually, I believe the TD04 saw duty in the turbocharged Dodge Shadow models of the late 80's. It apparently was also seen in some of the turbo Volvos of the late 80's, and is also pretty commonly used on diesel vehicles. I think Range Rover uses them for diesel applications. Do a web search for "Mitsubishi TD04 turbo" and you'll see that this unit's heritage is not exactly all-rally

ColinL · 02-20-2001, 06:44 AM

redkin-- the reason is flow. the volumetric efficiency of the engine, rpm and displacement determine what volume of air is flowing in. forced induction flows the same volume, but at greater than atmospheric pressure.

there are compressor flow maps that tell you how much boost a given compressor can hold at a particular flow rate with a particular efficiency.

the short answer is probably that there are several compressor trims for the TD04 turbine.

[This message has been edited by ColinL (edited February 20, 2001).]

shabby · 02-20-2001, 07:18 AM

Actually the 95 and up dsm's used t25 turbo's and not td04 ones.
Like the name says, the exhaust housing on the td04 is only 4cm wide.... 4cm!@!@# Do you know how small that is?
The boost on the wrx is set to around ~14-15 psi, this turbo wont be good for anything more than maybe 16psi with pump gas.

harrydog · 02-20-2001, 07:25 AM

I've been reading some contradictory comments regarding the turbo in the WRX. On one hand I hear that it runs out of steam at higher rpm's because it is small and will be overtaxed at high rpm, that it is sized for low and midrange power. (That is understandable and that is the case with the Audi 1.8T engine. But that engine makes max. torque at around 1850 rpm.) On the other hand, I hear that the WRX has more turbo lag than the Audi/VW 1.8T, and that boost doesn't happen until 3000 rpm or above. Max torque isn't until 4000 rpm. I can understand some turbo lag under 3000 rpm with a larger turbo, but in that case, it should maintain boost up to redline, which it doesn't. It seems to come up short on both ends. Maybe someone has some insight into this?

Redkin · 02-20-2001, 07:32 AM

Definate oversight on my part. :0 TD05 on my Talon. I went out and looked at the turbo last night after reading the first reply and I was clearly wrong. I should have known too since I had the entire engine apart less than three weeks ago!

So we think that the one standard on the WRX is only good for about 16psi? Does the turbo pull from all four cylinders or only two? I haven't gotten a good look at one at all to know.

Strafe · 02-20-2001, 07:47 AM

I think the DSM 3000 GT VR-4 / STEALTH used a variation of the TD04, the TD04L. Check out www.turbochargers.com, they have upgraded TD04Ls capable of 510hp and 580+hp. They are direct bolt-in(no mod) replacements for stock DSMs. I wonder if the housings are the same on the WRX. If so, that would be a simple DIY upgrade for under $1000.

DeliciouSpeed, it looks like DSM did use a TD04 on the 89-94 Eclipse/Talon/Laser automatic trans cars. Manual got a TD05. (Mitsubishi Catalog on the above web site.)

[This message has been edited by Strafe (edited February 20, 2001).]

newscooby · 02-20-2001, 07:47 AM

It uses the exhaust gases from all four. I should have taken a picture of this at the auto show.

If anyone has a chance, stop by the Subaru display and look at the rolling chassis they have, it's pretty cool.

You can clearly see the piping coming across the lower front of the engine from the drivers side of the car to feed the turbo.

Lots of room for improvements here...

Mike

ColinL · 02-20-2001, 07:48 AM

Harrydog: the lag is a matter of turbocharger selection, tuning and compression ratio.

Did you know that the 150HP 1.8T has a 9.5:1 compression ratio? The new 170HP version is a bit lower, 9.3:1, but the 225HP version is still 9:1. That's quite a bit of volumetric efficiency difference from the WRX's 8:1!

If Subaru really wanted to keep lag down they would have done what VW did with the 1.9L TDI and used a modern turbocharger. The TDI uses a Garret GT17V... unless they have suddenly improved the TD04 and kept the model designation, it hardly compares from a technology standpoint. (It's bigger, no doubt.)

harrydog · 02-20-2001, 08:01 AM

So it would seem that replacing the turbo in the WRX might be a good idea and would produce some major improvements. What are the options out there at this point? Does the previous generation WRX use the same turbo? If so, what have people been using as a replacement?

WRX2002STI · 02-20-2001, 08:04 AM

SOrry I am new here,what is a DSM?

Porter · 02-20-2001, 08:11 AM

Redkin-

The only manufacturer making turbo engines that pull from half of the cylinders is Saab, in their asymmetrical turbo V6 used in the 9-5. It alternates pulses turbo/NA, so it has high end turbo boost and low end NA torque. Very efficient motor too.

DeliciouSpeed · 02-20-2001, 08:21 AM

Remember guys, that valve in the intake track. It only allows a small amount of the air flow past until 3000RPMs. That reduction in flow inturn reduces the exhaust volume which increases lag. Plus the turbo has a sleeve bearing. And the compression is low (a plus for high boosters like us)A programmable ECU can be used to make that valve open fully sooner, with the addition of a ball bearing turbo, that lag can be reduced and power up top can be restored.

Ken

[This message has been edited by DeliciouSpeed (edited February 20, 2001).]

Maximus WRX · 02-20-2001, 08:42 AM

Where could we go about getting a ball-bearing turbo upgrade for the WRX? What turbos would be a simple bolt-on job? Also, that TD04L-15G-6CM2 from turbochargers.com says its good for 580+ HP. I'm guessing thats with 2 turbos...? What do you think we could do with that? Also, would that reduce lag?

ColinL · 02-20-2001, 08:56 AM

That is definitely two, since the trim of TD04 you're talking about is stock on the 3kGT vr4/stealth tt. It is also UPGRADED, not stock. There are many trims of the TD04 guys...

Maximus WRX · 02-20-2001, 08:58 AM

I realize that they are different, I'm just wondering what other options we have to upgrade this bad boy.

Ver.III · 02-20-2001, 09:20 AM

If you want a bolt on turbo. Stick with the stock IHI which are ball bearing to begin with. Either a VF-23 from a V3 or a VF-22 from a V2. The VF-23 would be a direct bolt on with no mods and should provide more than enough volume. I still question the max power you can get out of the new WRX without internal mods. I say no more than 280hp will be reliable.

Rich

Maximus WRX · 02-20-2001, 09:44 AM

Sweet, where can we get a VF-23? And how much are they? Also, would we need to change our ECU?

Redkin · 02-20-2001, 09:51 AM

Why are there such questions about the internal integrity about the internals of the EJ20? The reason I am questioning this is because I am currently a DSM owner and inthe process of ordering a WRX. DSM drivers consistanly produce 300Hp+ out of their stock engines without issues. Anyone interedted in what I am referring to check out http://www.dsmtalk.com and review some of their mods. I guess I am questioning why a newer engine whould have such issues at higher Hp levels.

[This message has been edited by Redkin (edited February 20, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Redkin (edited February 20, 2001).]

AWDTURBO · 02-20-2001, 09:56 AM

Another thing to consider is the cat in the exhaust manifold. Having this before the turbo couldn't be helping things.

Ver.III · 02-20-2001, 10:09 AM

Redkin,
the thing about the DSM motors , especially the Talons, is that they come already with heavy duty internals. Plus the engine managment can accomidate up to 18psi without any mods.
The standard WRX, does not come with the extra goodies. Hence, thats why there is a Sti version which unfortunetly we don't get here. Those engines come with steel cranks, sodium filled valves..etc. Thats why I think there is a limit of how much power (reliable) you can get out of the new WRX(standard) here.

Rich

kupaq · 02-20-2001, 10:35 AM

WRX2002STI
DSM = Diamond Star Motors

j00z · 02-20-2001, 02:11 PM

i was just at the Chicago Auto Show this past weekend. Subaru had a great display showing off their technology. huge thumbs up! much better then the Philly Auto Show. i have pictures of the turbo & exhaust routing. i'll upload them and post the link to this forum.

i climbed in the engine bay and got the following numbers off the turbo housing:

housing: TD04L (the 3000GT VR4 used these turbos)
p/n: 4937704300
???: 14412AA360
???: 000202024

i believe the first ??? number (ending in 360) has to do something with internal specs. i'm hoping that the 360 refers to CFM @ 15 psi. i've mainly seen 2 specs for the CFM for this turbo measured at 15psi. they have been 265CFM for the stock 3000GT VRM & 360CFM for a TD04L-13G-6cm2. so i'm guessing it's falling in that range. it would be nice to be able to translate those numbers on the turbo housing and start to eliminate these guesses/speculation.

this page has some more specs on the turbo. i forget who posted it earlier: http://www.geocities.com/clintsc9/ImpSpecs/ImpP07.jpg this page might give a clue that it's a TD04L-13 since it says the turbo has an A/R ratio of 13. Mitsubishi measures A/R ratio different then other manufactures so i'm not sure if my assumption is safe but i figure i'd let you in on some of my thought process.

now for the people that keep saying the US WRX doesn't make max torque until 4000 rpms. of course that's true but have you looked at the torque & HP curve that came with the brochure? has anyone else besides me try to interpolate the rest of the graph??? am i the only sicko?

if the graph is to some kind of scale, the WRX makes >=200 ft-lbs of torque starting somewhere between 2500-3000rpm all the way so somewhere around 6000rpm. so when you're at 3000 rpms, you're only missing 17 ft-lbs of torque. this engine should perform extremely well!!! the torque band looks nice a fat. and remember, you don't drive 4-cylinder cars under or around 2000rpm

thinking more and more about the design of the engine over this past weekend & looking at examples from other manufactures, i believe the EJ20 internals are good for at *least* an additional 100+ hp. the semi-closed deck on the STi is overkill. the bottom half of the STi motor is probably good for 500++ hp w/o modification if someone chooses to go that route. closing off the deck like that reduces the vibration of the cylinders at high pressures & RPMs. the design of the boxer engine already greatly reduces the vibration. have you ever been in car with a large (>2.2L) I4 engine? there's lots of vibration. nothing like the 2.5RS.

remember i'm just talking about engine internals. i'm not even touching on intercooling, fuel, ignition timing, etc. other factors that become extremely important when increasing the boost.

you also can't cite the STi as an example since a) the Japanese government basically makes Subaru lie about the power figures (all hi-po Japanese cars make 280ps) and b) the STi is a modified factory car. Subaru is going to overbuild the internals so that they can continue their reputation of a reliable engine builder and since it's such a specialty car, they EXPECT people to modify it past factory specs.

if you look at other manufactures like Honda they're taking a non-turbo engine and safely adding 100hp using forced induction without any internal modifications. then if you look at the DSM examples, they're pushing 300+ hp with no problems. all manufactures over build their engines. when you make a car for the mass market you have to build the engine to take abuse; like going up big hills in 5th gear, below 1500rpms with the AC on and 89 octane fuel! that's how you gain reputation for reliability. because you engines can withstand the extremes!!! these are all simular reasons to why you get soft suspension packages, horrible tire chooses, 20million cup holders, etc.

of course there's a limit, but that's what we are here to find out!!!

02-19-2001, 06:05 PM	#1
Redkin Scooby Newbie Member#: 4167 Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Pittsburgh, PA USA	TD04 Mitsu Turbo Someone please correct me if I am wrong. I was under the impression that the WRX utilizes the Mistu TD04 turbo. This is the same turbo that I have on my '92 Talon Tsi that DSMers effectively boost to 18psi+. If this turbo is adequate to near 300Hp levels for DSMers, why would it be much different to Scoobys? I do understand that there is more to achieving 300+hp than just increasing boost, but from what I have gathered, this turbo seems to be under-rated on this forum. Any and all feedback is welcomed... * Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

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02-19-2001, 07:09 PM	#2
DeliciouSpeed Scooby Specialist Member#: 3389 Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: ContraCosta, Ca Vehicle: 07 STImpreza Satin	The turbo on a 92 DSM is a TD05, sorry Jack. Edit-The 95up had TD04s [This message has been edited by DeliciouSpeed (edited February 19, 2001).]

02-19-2001, 07:18 PM	#3
BlownToBits Scooby Newbie Member#: 2989 Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Marblehead, MA Vehicle: 2000 GTI GLX Silver	Actually, I believe the TD04 saw duty in the turbocharged Dodge Shadow models of the late 80's. It apparently was also seen in some of the turbo Volvos of the late 80's, and is also pretty commonly used on diesel vehicles. I think Range Rover uses them for diesel applications. Do a web search for "Mitsubishi TD04 turbo" and you'll see that this unit's heritage is not exactly all-rally

02-20-2001, 06:44 AM	#4
ColinL Scooby Guru Member#: 114 Join Date: Jul 1999 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: Wichita, KS and Whoring, OT Vehicle: '03 Evo, Rice White '01 Erion CBR 929	redkin-- the reason is flow. the volumetric efficiency of the engine, rpm and displacement determine what volume of air is flowing in. forced induction flows the same volume, but at greater than atmospheric pressure. there are compressor flow maps that tell you how much boost a given compressor can hold at a particular flow rate with a particular efficiency. the short answer is probably that there are several compressor trims for the TD04 turbine. [This message has been edited by ColinL (edited February 20, 2001).]

02-20-2001, 07:18 AM	#5
shabby Scooby Newbie Member#: 2682 Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Ontario, Canada Vehicle: 93 Eagle Talon AWD Black	Actually the 95 and up dsm's used t25 turbo's and not td04 ones. Like the name says, the exhaust housing on the td04 is only 4cm wide.... 4cm!@!@# Do you know how small that is? The boost on the wrx is set to around ~14-15 psi, this turbo wont be good for anything more than maybe 16psi with pump gas.

02-20-2001, 07:25 AM	#6
harrydog Scooby Specialist Member#: 3773 Join Date: Jan 2001 Vehicle: 2002 WRX Sedan 2006 Outback 3.0R	I've been reading some contradictory comments regarding the turbo in the WRX. On one hand I hear that it runs out of steam at higher rpm's because it is small and will be overtaxed at high rpm, that it is sized for low and midrange power. (That is understandable and that is the case with the Audi 1.8T engine. But that engine makes max. torque at around 1850 rpm.) On the other hand, I hear that the WRX has more turbo lag than the Audi/VW 1.8T, and that boost doesn't happen until 3000 rpm or above. Max torque isn't until 4000 rpm. I can understand some turbo lag under 3000 rpm with a larger turbo, but in that case, it should maintain boost up to redline, which it doesn't. It seems to come up short on both ends. Maybe someone has some insight into this?

02-20-2001, 07:32 AM	#7
Redkin Scooby Newbie Member#: 4167 Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Pittsburgh, PA USA	Definate oversight on my part. :0 TD05 on my Talon. I went out and looked at the turbo last night after reading the first reply and I was clearly wrong. I should have known too since I had the entire engine apart less than three weeks ago! So we think that the one standard on the WRX is only good for about 16psi? Does the turbo pull from all four cylinders or only two? I haven't gotten a good look at one at all to know.

02-20-2001, 07:47 AM	#8
Strafe Scooby Newbie Member#: 3619 Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Voorhees (08043), NJ, USA Vehicle: 2002 Subaru WRX WR Blue Pearl w/ 380hp	I think the DSM 3000 GT VR-4 / STEALTH used a variation of the TD04, the TD04L. Check out www.turbochargers.com, they have upgraded TD04Ls capable of 510hp and 580+hp. They are direct bolt-in(no mod) replacements for stock DSMs. I wonder if the housings are the same on the WRX. If so, that would be a simple DIY upgrade for under $1000. DeliciouSpeed, it looks like DSM did use a TD04 on the 89-94 Eclipse/Talon/Laser automatic trans cars. Manual got a TD05. (Mitsubishi Catalog on the above web site.) [This message has been edited by Strafe (edited February 20, 2001).]

02-20-2001, 07:47 AM	#9
newscooby Scooby Specialist Member#: 995 Join Date: Feb 2000 Chapter/Region: South East Location: In an airplane, such is life.. Vehicle: 2000 MkIV GTi&23 LSV Red cars PWN me	It uses the exhaust gases from all four. I should have taken a picture of this at the auto show. If anyone has a chance, stop by the Subaru display and look at the rolling chassis they have, it's pretty cool. You can clearly see the piping coming across the lower front of the engine from the drivers side of the car to feed the turbo. Lots of room for improvements here... Mike

02-20-2001, 07:48 AM	#10
ColinL Scooby Guru Member#: 114 Join Date: Jul 1999 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: Wichita, KS and Whoring, OT Vehicle: '03 Evo, Rice White '01 Erion CBR 929	Harrydog: the lag is a matter of turbocharger selection, tuning and compression ratio. Did you know that the 150HP 1.8T has a 9.5:1 compression ratio? The new 170HP version is a bit lower, 9.3:1, but the 225HP version is still 9:1. That's quite a bit of volumetric efficiency difference from the WRX's 8:1! If Subaru really wanted to keep lag down they would have done what VW did with the 1.9L TDI and used a modern turbocharger. The TDI uses a Garret GT17V... unless they have suddenly improved the TD04 and kept the model designation, it hardly compares from a technology standpoint. (It's bigger, no doubt.)

02-20-2001, 08:01 AM	#11
harrydog Scooby Specialist Member#: 3773 Join Date: Jan 2001 Vehicle: 2002 WRX Sedan 2006 Outback 3.0R	So it would seem that replacing the turbo in the WRX might be a good idea and would produce some major improvements. What are the options out there at this point? Does the previous generation WRX use the same turbo? If so, what have people been using as a replacement?

02-20-2001, 08:04 AM	#12
WRX2002STI Scooby Newbie Member#: 4196 Join Date: Feb 2001	SOrry I am new here,what is a DSM?

02-20-2001, 08:11 AM	#13
Porter NASIOC Supporter Member#: 486 Join Date: Nov 1999 Chapter/Region: MAIC Location: Roanoke, VA Vehicle: 2004 Forester XT bug spattered	Redkin- The only manufacturer making turbo engines that pull from half of the cylinders is Saab, in their asymmetrical turbo V6 used in the 9-5. It alternates pulses turbo/NA, so it has high end turbo boost and low end NA torque. Very efficient motor too.

02-20-2001, 08:21 AM	#14
DeliciouSpeed Scooby Specialist Member#: 3389 Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: ContraCosta, Ca Vehicle: 07 STImpreza Satin	Remember guys, that valve in the intake track. It only allows a small amount of the air flow past until 3000RPMs. That reduction in flow inturn reduces the exhaust volume which increases lag. Plus the turbo has a sleeve bearing. And the compression is low (a plus for high boosters like us)A programmable ECU can be used to make that valve open fully sooner, with the addition of a ball bearing turbo, that lag can be reduced and power up top can be restored. Ken [This message has been edited by DeliciouSpeed (edited February 20, 2001).]

02-20-2001, 08:42 AM	#15
Maximus WRX Scooby Newbie Member#: 3495 Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: IN	Where could we go about getting a ball-bearing turbo upgrade for the WRX? What turbos would be a simple bolt-on job? Also, that TD04L-15G-6CM2 from turbochargers.com says its good for 580+ HP. I'm guessing thats with 2 turbos...? What do you think we could do with that? Also, would that reduce lag?

02-20-2001, 08:56 AM	#16
ColinL Scooby Guru Member#: 114 Join Date: Jul 1999 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: Wichita, KS and Whoring, OT Vehicle: '03 Evo, Rice White '01 Erion CBR 929	That is definitely two, since the trim of TD04 you're talking about is stock on the 3kGT vr4/stealth tt. It is also UPGRADED, not stock. There are many trims of the TD04 guys...

02-20-2001, 08:58 AM	#17
Maximus WRX Scooby Newbie Member#: 3495 Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: IN	I realize that they are different, I'm just wondering what other options we have to upgrade this bad boy.

02-20-2001, 09:20 AM	#18
Ver.III Scooby Specialist Member#: 1185 Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: North of the border Vehicle: I flap my gums and now I'm a specialist	If you want a bolt on turbo. Stick with the stock IHI which are ball bearing to begin with. Either a VF-23 from a V3 or a VF-22 from a V2. The VF-23 would be a direct bolt on with no mods and should provide more than enough volume. I still question the max power you can get out of the new WRX without internal mods. I say no more than 280hp will be reliable. Rich

02-20-2001, 09:44 AM	#19
Maximus WRX Scooby Newbie Member#: 3495 Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: IN	Sweet, where can we get a VF-23? And how much are they? Also, would we need to change our ECU?

02-20-2001, 09:51 AM	#20
Redkin Scooby Newbie Member#: 4167 Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Pittsburgh, PA USA	Why are there such questions about the internal integrity about the internals of the EJ20? The reason I am questioning this is because I am currently a DSM owner and inthe process of ordering a WRX. DSM drivers consistanly produce 300Hp+ out of their stock engines without issues. Anyone interedted in what I am referring to check out http://www.dsmtalk.com and review some of their mods. I guess I am questioning why a newer engine whould have such issues at higher Hp levels. [This message has been edited by Redkin (edited February 20, 2001).] [This message has been edited by Redkin (edited February 20, 2001).]

02-20-2001, 09:56 AM	#21
AWDTURBO Scooby Newbie Member#: 4087 Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: San Diego CA	Another thing to consider is the cat in the exhaust manifold. Having this before the turbo couldn't be helping things.

02-20-2001, 10:09 AM	#22
Ver.III Scooby Specialist Member#: 1185 Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: North of the border Vehicle: I flap my gums and now I'm a specialist	Redkin, the thing about the DSM motors , especially the Talons, is that they come already with heavy duty internals. Plus the engine managment can accomidate up to 18psi without any mods. The standard WRX, does not come with the extra goodies. Hence, thats why there is a Sti version which unfortunetly we don't get here. Those engines come with steel cranks, sodium filled valves..etc. Thats why I think there is a limit of how much power (reliable) you can get out of the new WRX(standard) here. Rich

02-20-2001, 10:35 AM	#23
kupaq Scooby Newbie Member#: 4277 Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Wasilla, AK USA Vehicle: 2002 WRX Yellow	WRX2002STI DSM = Diamond Star Motors

02-20-2001, 02:11 PM	#24
j00z Scooby Newbie Member#: 3801 Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Philadelphia, PA, USA Vehicle: '02 WRX WR Blue	i was just at the Chicago Auto Show this past weekend. Subaru had a great display showing off their technology. huge thumbs up! much better then the Philly Auto Show. i have pictures of the turbo & exhaust routing. i'll upload them and post the link to this forum. i climbed in the engine bay and got the following numbers off the turbo housing: housing: TD04L (the 3000GT VR4 used these turbos) p/n: 4937704300 ???: 14412AA360 ???: 000202024 i believe the first ??? number (ending in 360) has to do something with internal specs. i'm hoping that the 360 refers to CFM @ 15 psi. i've mainly seen 2 specs for the CFM for this turbo measured at 15psi. they have been 265CFM for the stock 3000GT VRM & 360CFM for a TD04L-13G-6cm2. so i'm guessing it's falling in that range. it would be nice to be able to translate those numbers on the turbo housing and start to eliminate these guesses/speculation. this page has some more specs on the turbo. i forget who posted it earlier: http://www.geocities.com/clintsc9/ImpSpecs/ImpP07.jpg this page might give a clue that it's a TD04L-13 since it says the turbo has an A/R ratio of 13. Mitsubishi measures A/R ratio different then other manufactures so i'm not sure if my assumption is safe but i figure i'd let you in on some of my thought process. now for the people that keep saying the US WRX doesn't make max torque until 4000 rpms. of course that's true but have you looked at the torque & HP curve that came with the brochure? has anyone else besides me try to interpolate the rest of the graph??? am i the only sicko? if the graph is to some kind of scale, the WRX makes >=200 ft-lbs of torque starting somewhere between 2500-3000rpm all the way so somewhere around 6000rpm. so when you're at 3000 rpms, you're only missing 17 ft-lbs of torque. this engine should perform extremely well!!! the torque band looks nice a fat. and remember, you don't drive 4-cylinder cars under or around 2000rpm thinking more and more about the design of the engine over this past weekend & looking at examples from other manufactures, i believe the EJ20 internals are good for at least an additional 100+ hp. the semi-closed deck on the STi is overkill. the bottom half of the STi motor is probably good for 500++ hp w/o modification if someone chooses to go that route. closing off the deck like that reduces the vibration of the cylinders at high pressures & RPMs. the design of the boxer engine already greatly reduces the vibration. have you ever been in car with a large (>2.2L) I4 engine? there's lots of vibration. nothing like the 2.5RS. remember i'm just talking about engine internals. i'm not even touching on intercooling, fuel, ignition timing, etc. other factors that become extremely important when increasing the boost. you also can't cite the STi as an example since a) the Japanese government basically makes Subaru lie about the power figures (all hi-po Japanese cars make 280ps) and b) the STi is a modified factory car. Subaru is going to overbuild the internals so that they can continue their reputation of a reliable engine builder and since it's such a specialty car, they EXPECT people to modify it past factory specs. if you look at other manufactures like Honda they're taking a non-turbo engine and safely adding 100hp using forced induction without any internal modifications. then if you look at the DSM examples, they're pushing 300+ hp with no problems. all manufactures over build their engines. when you make a car for the mass market you have to build the engine to take abuse; like going up big hills in 5th gear, below 1500rpms with the AC on and 89 octane fuel! that's how you gain reputation for reliability. because you engines can withstand the extremes!!! these are all simular reasons to why you get soft suspension packages, horrible tire chooses, 20million cup holders, etc. of course there's a limit, but that's what we are here to find out!!!