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Old 01-08-2001, 01:13 PM   #1
Jon Bogert
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Post My budget turbo plan. Comments, please!

Iíve been looking at options for turbocharging my 2000 RS that could make use of a used T3-Super 70 I already have. The T3-S70 is sized between a T3-S60 (smaller) and a T3-T4 (larger). It is a size frequently used on Chrysler turbo cars. I just bought SteveSís used Minnam pipes and Iím going to try to put together a low boost ~5psi system.

After reading through the I-club archives, as well as Larry Ganzís excellent JC Sports installation directions and SteveSís Lagging.com site, hereís what Iím planning:

T3-S70 turbo
Minnam 2.25Ē up pipe, 2.5Ē downpipe w/cat, and IC pipe
Deltagate wastegate
High performance fuel pump
Bell RRFPR 20005 or 20007
J&S voltage clamp
3Ē cold air fender intake with PRM in-line air filter
Samco hoses for the cold air side
Slightly colder spark plugs
Gauges: EGT, Boost, Fuel pressure

No intercooler. No S-AFC. No timing control. At low boost levels on an MY00, I donít think Iíll need it.

The best part is that the T3-S70 can move quite a bit of air, so the upgrade path is to add an IC and a Tec-II and turn up the boost.

Thanks for any comments, suggestions or predictions of doom.
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Old 01-08-2001, 01:15 PM   #2
efoo
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I think you need a J&S knock sensor. It's your car, but I suspect that thing will save your butt more than once, especially if you have nothing other than a RRFPR for fuel delivery management.
Sure, 5 psi on a normal day isn't much, but what about 5psi on a hot day? or 5 psi on a track/autocross day? You never know.

-Edwin
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Old 01-08-2001, 01:16 PM   #3
rao
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Thumbs up

Looks like a good plan to me - as long as you keep it at 5psi, don't try to whin a drag race with Daphne by turning up the boost .

I would recommend getting a much lower spring rate tahn you plan on running for the wastegate and then get a quality manual boost controller.

Have fun.
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Old 01-08-2001, 01:19 PM   #4
jeffg
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I might be wrong, but I think the cold air intake is a waste of time. The turbo will compress way more air than the slightly cooler outside air will provide. You could probably save some money on the air filter. I know those things arent very cheap.

Also a boost controller might help. Even a manual one. it would allow you to tune the turbo a little.

I think you might be okay since you are running a small amount of boost, but I have never turbo'd a car so I dont really know.
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Old 01-08-2001, 01:36 PM   #5
Keiho
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Get a fuel computer, even with the J&S fuel controller/voltage clamp you still run a bit lean. Look for a used one or something until you get the TEC-II.
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Old 01-08-2001, 01:40 PM   #6
Jon Bogert
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Question

My understanding of the S-AFC on MY00 cars is that they're no help until it goes open-loop, and then a properly tuned RRFPR will provide adequate fuel. Am I missing something?
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Old 01-08-2001, 01:50 PM   #7
rao
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BTW, Split Second makes two adjustable voltage clamps. www.splitsec.com

[This message has been edited by rao (edited January 08, 2001).]
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Old 01-08-2001, 02:21 PM   #8
Sean McElderry
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Jon-

Your plan sounds very good for a small boost system. Yes, you do in fact want a cold air intake. No, you do not want an S-AFC. Your fuel/air delivery will be good with the parts you mentioned.

The one thing that worries me, as Edwin mentioned, is no timing control. Maybe you'll be ok, but if it were my car, I'd get the J&S Safeguard.

As always, watch your EGTs constantly. It will be your favorite gauge...and at first you'll watch it more than your tach Good luck!

Sean
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Old 01-08-2001, 02:21 PM   #9
Keiho
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I wouldn't know about the Apex'i SAFC, I'm using the Field Hyper R.
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Old 01-08-2001, 02:31 PM   #10
Jon Bogert
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Talking

Ha! Funny you should mention that, Sean. I drove all of STPR last year upshifting when the EGT gauge hit "redline" completely ignoring the tach. Let's just say the tuning wasn't quite perfect at that point.

OK, OK, I'll get the J&S. It looks like their new one is pretty slick.
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Old 01-08-2001, 02:40 PM   #11
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With no intercooler, I would recommend some knock prevention whether it be ITC or J&S knock control. Good luck with your budget project. I am planning a build up with all WRX parts. I, however, am going to go Tec-II first so I don't have to worry about what electronics work and what don't.

Have fun and don't blow anything up!

Jon
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Old 01-08-2001, 03:08 PM   #12
Sean McElderry
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Jon-

Sounds good

Sean

[This message has been edited by Sean McElderry (edited January 08, 2001).]
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Old 01-08-2001, 03:54 PM   #13
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Jon ~~ Just got home a received your email about your little project. Sounds great, but as has already been pointed out you should probably buy the J&S SafeGuard with monitor to be on the safe side.

I don't think you'll need the S-AFC with the RRFPR. I still have the S-AFC installed, but it's not making any corrections thanks to the Bell RRFPR. I contemplated taking out the S-AFC, but I figured I might some day start using it to "fine tune" the RRFPR. But to be honest I haven't seen any reason to mess with it.

Maybe I missed it, but how you going to overcome the MAP boost issue? EDIT: J&S voltage clamp -- see how I missed it?

Steve
http://www.lagging.com/


[This message has been edited by SteveS (edited January 08, 2001).]
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Old 01-08-2001, 05:54 PM   #14
Trey
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On a MY00+ Turbo set, the only thing a S-AFC is good for is really LEANING out the mixture. With the MAP sensor voltage clamp, you're MAP input will already be reading as high as the ECU will allow for anyway. All the S-AFC does is to alter this voltage.

So, unless you make the RRFPR run rich and then lean it out with a S-AFC, you'll be out of luck.

Turbocharging a MY00-01 isn't the same as turbocharging a MY98 or MY99. The different engine management system presents a whole different level of tuning issues. I think if more people were to pull their stock front A/F sensors out and install a wide-band lambda to monitor real A/F ratios, you'd be surprised at what you see, even at 5psi.

Good luck,
Trey
CobbTuning.com
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Old 01-08-2001, 06:06 PM   #15
stimpy
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Now what year Imps are you referring to Trey? You got me curious now, as I am sure the post was intended to do.
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Old 01-08-2001, 07:10 PM   #16
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He already said the MY's.
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Old 01-09-2001, 11:03 AM   #17
Jon Bogert
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Thumbs down

Arrgggh! J&S doesn't have the Ultra Safeguard available for another 3-4 months. I was just getting momentum up, too. Any worthwhile alternatives without descending into Piggyback Hell.
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Old 01-09-2001, 11:20 AM   #18
efoo
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well, you've already got a RRFPR and voltage clamp - why not just get a normal J&S knock sensor, perhaps even a used one?

I never got that far- I had a S-AFC and RRFPR, but never even installed the RRFPR, and took out the S-AFC and sold it before I installed the turbo. In went the TEC-II instead, and I haven't looked back.

"I stuck one foot into piggyback hell and lived to tell about it!" that's my slogan, at least.

-Edwin
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Old 01-09-2001, 04:51 PM   #19
DaveK
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Just curious, but should those planning on turbocharging a MY99 use a S-AFC, or can we do without it also provided we're using an RRFPR?
Thanks
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Old 01-09-2001, 04:59 PM   #20
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Dave, you can do it without an AFC just turn up the fuel pressure more. JCS has done it before.

Kevin
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Old 01-09-2001, 09:26 PM   #21
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Also, see my tech notes intermixed in the "gb is closed" thread - I talked about why the AFC is not the bext for tuning a MY00 with boost.

The RRFPR is great on a MY00, although I use the AFC to add fuel to the midrange, before I reach the MAP sensor limits. Enrichening below 5,000 rpm with the S-AFC get's me a very nice increase in midrange power, but is useless above that.

When I try to go too rich with the RRFPR and lean it out with the AFC I get a "low absolute manifold pressure" check engine light.

Larry

PS: repost of my last post about S-AFC from there to follow:

ImprezaRS dot com
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posted December 31, 2000 06:14 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TECH ISSUE:
Also, I was talking with John Cox about my only complaints -

(1) that when the weather changes, I have to mess with the AFC, and more often the RRFPR, to compensate for getting max power under full boost. For normal driving at less than full boost, the car accomodates the changes in weather just fine and is extremely drivable no matter what. But, for the best power on a warmer winter day I might have to drop the AFC by 4-5% above 5,000rpm, and then when we hit a low 20 degrees out I have to raise the AFC numbers again. This brings me to number 2.

(2) I can crank up the AFC to plus 17% below 4,000rpm, but above that I can only up the AFC by 7% at 5,000 and 4% above 5,500rpm. The car feels like it "hits a rev limiter" if I up the AFC too much at high RPM, even just one extra degree of enrichment too much. Going negative on the AFC on warm days is not a problem.

What John told me made it much clearer (although I still have questions). He stated [that with the MY00/01 with MAP] that the boost chip limits the functionality of the AFC at high air flow such as pushing boost. This is because of the voltage clamp on the MAP sensor at 4.85V or less when using the boost chip. And he said that the car begins to rely on the RRFPR more in that high rpm full boost range for providing more fuel. He said the "JC torque chip" actualy allows the MY00 ECU to adjust itself to weather changes better and when running boost - that the ECU "learns the new fuel requirements quicker with the torque chip".

He said a RRFPR is still highly desired when using the stock injectors for max power, and that it will stay relatively normal for rich/lean at 5 psi with just the torque chip and no AFC. He said there is another MY00 IHI turbo kit running around the denver area with the torque chip instead of AFC, and it runs great.

I asked how he wired the AFC into my car, and he said on the MY00 [because of the 5V o2 sensor] that they don't use the O2 sensor at all. They use the MAP voltage and RPM signal, and the AFC sends a different MAP voltage signal back to the ECU depending on RPM and the throttle position sensor output. So, at high boost and MAP sensor clamped at 4.85 volts, if I try turning up the AFC at high rpm it doesn't do anything since the AFC is wired in BEFORE the MAP sensor voltage clamp.

That is why it was like "hitting a wall" at 5,700 rpm before I got the fuel pressure cranked up high enough with the RRFPR - because I was trying to use the AFC to increase fuel, but it was not doing anything once the signal from the AFC was being limited by the boost chip! That's also why it would pull 6,250 rpm fine when I wasn't under boost and using low throttle inputs to get there, even though under boost it couldn't.

I have monitored the sensors before with the "sensor check" function of the AFC. I found that if I crank up the AFC enrichment at high rpms and try a high boost run, the MAP voltage peaks at 4.8+ volts and then rapidly fluctuates between 4.4 - 4.7+ volts (and the engine feels like I am hitting a rev limiter). So, that explains why the engine would lose power.

Anyway, I thought about trying the torque chip instead of the AFC, and JC does offer the torque inside the "boost chip" box as a combo unit, but I don't recall the price. I will have to see if I go with a programable ECU first. For now, I will use the RRFPR to tune the topend power, and the AFC to tune the low-mid range power.

Larry www.ImprezaRS.com

PS: Also, at the free Second Creek race track day yesterday, I found the EGT's dropped 100 degrees on long hard runs when I tripled up on the dose of octane booster per gallon of gas. I normally use a double dose of octane booster, and really feel the extra power. This was with very hard continuous driving at high speeds on the track (until the brakes fadded out in 4-7 laps.)

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Old 01-09-2001, 09:33 PM   #22
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I meant to say the MAP is clamped at 4.5V
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Old 01-10-2001, 08:35 AM   #23
Jon Bogert
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Lightbulb

OK, now we're looking at an additional injector controller Bert has lying around the shop. It can map the additional fuel delivery to RPM and boost, instead of just boost like the RRFPR. Anyone tried this?

From tuning the Rimmer supercharger in the heat of August, he is adamant that the MY00 won't knock at moderate boost with stock timing if the mixture is right.
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Old 01-10-2001, 09:11 AM   #24
rao
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which one is it Jon? MRL MF-2, Simple Digital Systems, inquiring minds want to know.
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Old 01-10-2001, 09:48 AM   #25
Jon Bogert
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From Bert: The ERL Mf-2 Aux driver has a MAP sensor input, and an rpm input. From 2000 rpm to 9000 rpm at 1000 rpm spacing (it interpolates between these) you can adjust the injector driver "gain" versus boost at each rpm site.

Usually the injectors are mounted before the throttle plate. The fuel is atomized into the air stream more evenly there than the manifold/plenum because the velocity of the air is greater. The aux driver won't be coming on until condierable amounts of air are flowing. The complete system with GM map sensor (may be able to tap into SUBE's instead) and two injectors will be approx $550.
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