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Old 10-08-2000, 02:48 PM   #1
ColinL
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Post update on cobb cams install...

If you have all the right tools, this can be done easily in 4-5 hours. However, I am not done.

My problem is a proprietary bolt that FHI has elected to use for some unknown reason. Trey's documentation refers to it as a Torx PLUS, and I'll be calling a few Subaru dealers tomorrow to find out if I can get one. It is smaller than a T45 and bigger than a T40. I have improvised a bit that fits pretty well using a dremel on a T45.

However, even if this bolts were standard T45 I think I would have had this problem. Two of them on the exhaust side of the RH head are partially stripped and very stuck. One of them on the LH head is the same.

Instead of shredding what remains of the bolt while working within the confines of the car I have removed the cylinder heads to get better leverage on them. I still don't have the right tools though so for today I have quit. I can get a reasonably good bite on the stuck bolts but they still will not move (they have a silcone threadlocker on them). I have attempted several penetrants and it does not seem to help. I believe the way to remove it now is a high-torque air rachet (mine is fairly low torque) and a large vise with rubber or vinyl jaws.

You can see the bolts here and here and where one of the stuck ones is here (didn't take any pics after removing the heads, sorry).

Now, the only thing I'm pissed about is that this wouldn't have happened if those bolts are a standard or 12 sided 10mm or 12mm instead of that stupid propriety torx. Torx strip so much easier than an equivalently sized standard head. Stupid engineer.

[This message has been edited by ColinL (edited October 08, 2000).]
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Old 10-08-2000, 02:50 PM   #2
ColinL
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A few more things... I appreciate votes of confidence but let's not clutter this thread with 15 "that sucks, dude" replies. If you have questions or suggestions, shoot.

Do not attempt this install without the tools I mentioned above. (high torque air rachet being most important and a REAL torx PLUS subaru proprietary socket).
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Old 10-08-2000, 02:57 PM   #3
rao
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That doesn't look like a Torx to me, the points are rounded in both directions - weird. Good luck.
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Old 10-08-2000, 03:13 PM   #4
Overtime
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I was thinking the same thing, rao. What a weird looking torx bolt, all curves and no edges.

Subaru cuts costs in tons of places, why not standardize something like this?

It's good to know that even Colin can strip a bolt (and get upset afterwards) with the best of them.
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Old 10-08-2000, 03:18 PM   #5
Kyle Paton
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Colin this may help

The 1999 Subaru shop manual lists it as a TORX PLUS used for removing and installing camshaft cap

It says it's a newly adopted tool and the part# is 499497000. Maybe Scott at Subaruparts.com has it (If not he can get any Subaru tool)

Hope this helps

Kyle Paton

BTW: That sucks, dude
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Old 10-08-2000, 03:30 PM   #6
8Complex

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Yeah, it kinda looks like a star drive rather then a torx. Cant you get a vice grip on that sucker and then go to the store and find a nice Grade 8 hex head bolt to throw in there?
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Old 10-08-2000, 03:31 PM   #7
Jay_UK
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We dont have that on our cars... :}

But i agree that isnt a standard torq fitment... the shape is too rounded.. I have seen it before.. but cant remember the name of it.

Chances are most people have just used a stock torq bit..and have been lucky.

J.
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Old 10-08-2000, 03:46 PM   #8
ColinL
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Exactly, Jay. The too small T40 worked great for the other 9 bolts, all of them are not the slightest bit rounded off just like the one I have pictured.

Kyle-- the part number does help, thanks a bunch.
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Old 10-08-2000, 03:50 PM   #9
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Wow... Take a look at this analysis of TORX Plus - http://www.aceng.com/examples/torxplus/torx.html

More analysis info - http://www.burrisoptics.com/torx.htm

How about a press release about when the system came out - http://www.avdel.textron.com/tamper_resistant_press.htm

Bits - http://www.airtuf.com/catalog/driver/torxplus/

Just from an engineering standpoint, these things seem pretty cool. On the other hand, they're a PITA when it comes to working on things since they haven't been widespread yet.
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Old 10-08-2000, 05:36 PM   #10
zephyr451
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Lightbulb

I think what you want is a "spline" drive. They come in twenty or so different sizes from .033" to .454". The ones I was looking at were in the Snap-on Catalog. You can look at them online at <a href="www.snapon.com/">Snap-on</a>. They have an ecatalog, check the alphabetic section under spline, them "multi-spline L shaped". If you can't get it elsewhere perhaps this will work.

-Zephyr451
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Old 10-08-2000, 06:45 PM   #11
Jon Bogert
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If you want to chat with Bert Arano at Union 7 about how he did mine, his number is 610-701-0717.

Jon
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Old 10-08-2000, 09:27 PM   #12
BG5
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McMaster seems to carry Torx+ bits, keyword search for "torx plus" or check the bottom of page 2481. My guess is you are looking at the 40IP or 45IP bits... Any decent supply house should be able to get these, dontcha think?

...reminds me of my Bilstein insert install, took forever to find/get all the correct tools to do the job but it was a breeze once everything was lined up ready to go...
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Old 10-09-2000, 06:56 AM   #13
Trey
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Here's a web site that might be helpful to some of you doing your own work:
http://www.spxkentmoore.com

They are who make/resell all the SOA service tools. Dealerships won't sell them to you (at least from my experience).

They have everything listed and searchable from the part numbers in the service manuals, and you can order online.

The TORX PLUS bit is only a few dollars and if it's causing a major problem, I can possibly include them with the cams. Any comments or opinions on that?

Sorry to hear you're having difficultly Colin, let me know if there's anything I can help with.

Cheers,
Trey
CobbTuning.com
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Old 10-09-2000, 07:08 AM   #14
donjuan
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Trey--It's probably a tool that most don't have because it's the kind of thing you'll probably use once or twice. It's always aggravating to me to get halfway through a job and find you need a specialty tool, I'm sure Colin would agree right now. It's even more aggravating to go out to your garage and add up the price of all the tools you've bought that you've used maybe once or twice. I know if it were me, I would be SO glad to open the box and find the special bit along with the cams. (and it may be me in a few months )
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Old 10-09-2000, 07:26 AM   #15
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Gotta second that. For a extra few bucks, it's well worth it. Slip it in there (whoops ).

BTW, any news on those non-EJ25 fitments?

Just thought I'd sneak that in...
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Old 10-09-2000, 10:33 AM   #16
ColinL
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Definitely include the Torx plus bit. You also might include the liquid gasket depending on what it costs.

Even pulling the heads I have only 6-7 hours in so far... I estimate another 5-6 hours to finish and put it back together. (30 minutes to finish, the rest for re-assembly. )
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Old 10-09-2000, 10:42 AM   #17
donjuan
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ColinL have you been shooting any pics as you go?? I may be doing the same job in a short time and would be interested in seeing your pics and hearing any tips you have. Looks pretty straightforward, but i'm sure there are hidden hang-ups...
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Old 10-09-2000, 01:11 PM   #18
stimpy
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I am ordering the cams in a few minutes, and any install tips, references to install steps etc would be greatly appreciated. I will have some people knowledgable in cams helping me, but all the more instructions the better.

Thanks and keep us posted.

Jon
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Old 10-09-2000, 02:14 PM   #19
ColinL
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Don:
My wife shot a few pics, not many. I'll get more during the reassembly. Trey's instructions are good although not bolt-by-bolt. (Most people attempting this will not need bolt-by-bolt.)

I ordered the T+40 bit from spx kent-moore. It's $8.49. In addition to it you must have the following to complete this install:

10mm socket
12mm socket
breakover bar (you'll strip rachets if you try to use them as one)
14mm socket (12 sided)
17mm socket
22mm socket
3/8" and 1/2" ratchets
various adapters and extensions
5mm hex wrench (allen wrench)
(5mm hex bit for socket is smarter)
liquid gasket
hydraulic press
2mm hex wrench
torque wrench(es)

recommended:
air tools
fender covers
mechanics gloves
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Old 10-09-2000, 02:37 PM   #20
stimpy
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Just a little update on the situation here: I just spoke with Trey Cobb about cams (as well as ordering me some) and they are now including the Torx Plus bit needed for the install. They are doing a corecharge for it, and then you just send it back once you are done using it. This way, nobody goes out and spends the money for a tool you may never use again. You may still order the bit for yourself, however, and the corecharge will not apply.

Man, there is a 4-6 week backorder on the cams right now! Trey also said he was trying to get more cams to help meet the demand.

About the install, what exactly was the hydraulic press used for; is it definitely needed; can I make due without it, how much are they, and where might I locate one?

Sorry for the long post.

Jon
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Old 10-09-2000, 02:44 PM   #21
ColinL
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A hydraulic press is the recommended tool for resetting the automatic timing belt tensioner. I will take a few pictures of it.

The Haynes manual I have explicitly says not to use a vise, so I hoofed it over to a friend's house who has a press. It is viscous and you will blow the seals if you compress it too quickly, but I'm still uncertain exactly how a vice -- clamped slowly -- is worse than a press. The 2mm hex key is used to hold the tensioner piston down after you compress it.
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Old 10-09-2000, 03:01 PM   #22
Trey
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Just an update on the TORX PLUS situation that I explained to Jon. Basically, I'm going to start providing them for people who get the cams, and I'm not going to charge anything extra up front for it, but I expect it back with your original cams. Otherwise, I will charge you for the tool.

I figure we can all share the TORX PLUS tool to do the installs, but you don't need to keep them unless you plan on doing more in the future. If you're a shop, or plan on performing more cam installs later, than it's best to just go ahead and buy your own TORX PLUS.

Colin - I'll buy back your TORX PLUS after you use it, unless you need to keep it for some reason.

Thanks for all the feedback,
Trey
CobbTuning.com
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Old 10-10-2000, 10:34 AM   #23
stimpy
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ColinL,
Any luck on those pictures yet?
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Old 10-10-2000, 10:53 AM   #24
ColinL
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Oh, sorry. I'm not getting the replacement gaskets and the Torx+ bit until later this week so I haven't been back to my dad's house to take any pictures. He has the air tools so we did the work over there.

It will probably be Thursday or Friday night before I resume work.
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Old 10-10-2000, 11:21 AM   #25
BG5
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Quote:
The Haynes manual I have explicitly says not to use a vise, so I hoofed it over to a friend's house who has a press. It is viscous and you will blow the seals if you compress it too quickly, but I'm still uncertain exactly how a vice -- clamped slowly -- is worse than a press.
The deal is that you have to compress it in a vertical orientation, a vise is OK if you mount it up to do a vertical compress over the 3 minutes or so they say.

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