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Old 10-12-2011, 10:14 AM   #151
ezil71
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I'm in China right now, and nobody here knows jack about how to shift!

everyone, and I mean everyone, lugs the engine BIG time

taxi's, bus drivers and all of the people I've driven with - they up shift at like 1000k!

Like, getting all the way to 4th, when I would still probably be in 1st!

Lots of new cars here too, less than 5 years old, if not newer for many of them, and a ton of VW's (all the taxi's are Jettas or some variation of the old Jetta body)

In any case - worth mentioning in this thread that the goal is to keep rpms in a range for around town type driving - 2500-3500 or so - and up/down shift as needed to stay in that range

(it is painful to see all these drivers killing their new cars!)

/end rant
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Old 12-29-2011, 09:14 PM   #152
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Mmmm juicy info, love it!!
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Old 12-31-2011, 04:19 PM   #153
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Is it bad to sit at a light holding the clutch in comparison to putting the car in neutral? (didn't see it in the thread)
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Old 12-31-2011, 04:59 PM   #154
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Not necessarily but it will wear out the pressure plate fingers quicker I would imagine.
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Old 01-01-2012, 03:47 AM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tricktraxxas3 View Post
Is it bad to sit at a light holding the clutch in comparison to putting the car in neutral? (didn't see it in the thread)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bald_Wrex View Post
Not necessarily but it will wear out the pressure plate fingers quicker I would imagine.
Not the fingers, but the bearing the fingers ride on. It wears any time the motor is spinning and the clutch is depressed.

Holding the clutch in isn't really a concern as you will typically get a new throwout bearing with a clutch replacement, clutches wear out first. A related point is this if you do let out the clutch and sit in neutral at a light: letting out the clutch in neutral spins up the transmission so when you press in the clutch to engage first gear, your syncros and forks are wearing to slow the trans back to a stop before it engages. When depressing the clutch from neutral going to first, give it a second to spin down before pushing it into first.

Apply same principal to double clutch, double rev match if putting it into first while moving, remembering that the trans is spinning at idle motor revs when depressing the clutch. Example: 15mph coasting in neutral, after depressing clutch the trans at idle is already at the right speed for 2nd so you can quickly slot it into 2nd. If you desire 1st gear, idle speed is not high enough so you should rev the motor in neutral to 1st gear revs, depress clutch, quickly slot 1st gear, rev match again to 1st gear speeds, release clutch.

Last edited by AaronCompNetSys; 01-01-2012 at 03:54 AM.
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Old 01-01-2012, 05:29 AM   #156
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Thanks for the help. I'm learning stick on my wrx and want to make sure I don't create any bad habits.
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Old 01-01-2012, 11:26 AM   #157
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Wish I had read this when I bought my car back in April, would've saved me some embarrassment on the way back from the dealership
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Old 01-07-2012, 09:04 PM   #158
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Good thread. I've been driving a manual transmission for 1 week now and have taught myself how to get smooth starts and rev match/double clutch for smooth downshifts. It isn't perfect but I'm going to need more than 1 week and 200 miles to do the movements without thinking.

I want to learn heel-toe but have a question.

Can heel-toe really be used in a street application? Every time I try, I end up stomping on the brakes just to roll my foot over to blip the throttle. I usually end up going slow enough that I can just straight put it into the lower gear. Is there a technique that I'm doing wrong?

I want to learn how to heel-toe so I don't have to downshift as early for a turn. My usual method is double clutch/rev match 4th -> 3rd before the turn and then once I'm straightened out, I rev match 3rd -> 2nd to get some acceleration out of the turn. I'd like to get the 3rd -> 2nd shift before the apex of the turn so I can get out faster.
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Old 01-07-2012, 10:11 PM   #159
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Heel toe is racing only, to use it otherwise is to be practicing or doing it to impress someone. In a street car with synchros, there's no reason to do it unless you talk to those people who wear tin foil hats and come up with some psycho babble.
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Old 01-08-2012, 02:16 AM   #160
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Heel- toe takes a lot of practice so keep at it if you really want to learn. Also, I use the inside and outside part of the ball of my foot NOT my heel at all.

@tricktaxxas3
I was told to keep it in gear... That way if you are rear ended or something like that the car stalls and is in gear and doesn't roll through the red light into the intersection and possibly get t-boned

Last edited by Scooby207; 01-08-2012 at 02:22 AM.
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Old 01-08-2012, 04:56 PM   #161
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I do all the fancy stuff because I enjoy it, it helps when I'm out attacking a back road, and it's a generally smooth ride overall. My goal is to be as smooth as an auto box, and the rare "I didn't even notice you were shifting" is the highest complement.

You really have to let these techniques get burned in, it took me a long time before I could do as you describe smoothly. I wear thin shoes and position my foot so I can swivel it easily. The soft pedal in a Subaru will make it easier for you to learn, hard pedals aren't as noob friendly. Keep at it and you will have a fun skill that no one else has.

Part of you saying you end up going slow mph is just because you are being careful and not aggressive. To get a heel toe or double heel toe you have to be aggressive before it feels right. Rarely you can be aggressive on the street while being safe so it just takes patience.
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Old 01-09-2012, 12:43 AM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby207 View Post
I was told to keep it in gear...
The reason of most concern for us spirited drivers with staying in gear is related to the for-aft balance of the car. This trick comes in much more handy than in just emergencies, but also keeps you safer when you are having fun.

Keeping the car in a gear where it is in a higher rev band offers you access to an instant amount of deceleration through the engine friction. This can be controlled linearly with the throttle, allowing you to shift the weight of the car forwards and backwards with very precise control. You can load up the fronts or the back axle depending on how you need to balance grip, with the goal of never driving at ten tenths of your tires grip. Keeping them balanced at around a maximum of 8/10ths, you have room for the the unexpected and emergency situations. Many drivers drive at 10/10ths of their front tires grip and 5/10ths rear, making some understearing bad driver habits. A car driven in experienced hands balanced with front axle at 8/10ths and rear at 8/10ths will always be faster, safer, and more fun than one where the driver is oblivious and just cranks the steering wheel til the tires squeal.
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Old 01-09-2012, 12:49 AM   #163
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^ makes sense to me

I thought he was asking about when at a complete stop at a light in which case I'm not sure how all that applies....

Did I miss something?
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Old 01-09-2012, 12:54 AM   #164
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You didn't miss anything, I know my raving isn't related to stop lights. The idea of doing all this fancy shifting stuff is so you can eventually do them at places other than stop lights, like through a fast series of bends on your favorite country road. I wouldn't dare try a 9k downshift before a fun sweeping corner until I had practiced it a bazillion times at stop lights going slowly.
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Old 01-09-2012, 01:27 AM   #165
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Ok...cool

well, thanks for the info
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Old 01-13-2012, 06:50 PM   #166
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I'm getting heel-toe down now. I tried with wide Clark's Desert Boots first and now can do it with boat shoes which are much narrower. My method is to roll my foot over and bring the heel to the gas pedal too and I can blip it eventually. Just takes a while to get comfortable.

I just need more seat time with my new Impreza! I know how to do all downshifting methods but need more time memorize all the motions.

Also, I've grinded my gears a few times now. Have I caused any serious damage by grinding a few times?
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Old 01-13-2012, 07:29 PM   #167
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I doubt anything serious but with that said any grinding is bad
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Old 02-15-2012, 02:36 PM   #168
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Unless I read through all the replies too quickly, I dont see this question being asked. I apologize in advance if someone else already said this. Anyway:
I have always Heel Toe downshifted. In my old 3000GT, the pedals were far enough part and far enough from the side wall that I can use my Heel and Toe.
In my Honda Fit, the pedals are close, but the throttle height is much closer to the brake that I can do Big Toe Pinky Toe.
In my new WRX, the gas pedal is so low compared to the brake pedal and so close to the right side wall that I definitely cannot do Heel Toe and having a lot of trouble doing Big Toe Pinky Toe without over-reving.
Is there anything I can do to raise the gas pedal? How are you guys coping with this or am I just a horrible driver?

Last edited by Dailoh; 02-15-2012 at 05:04 PM.
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Old 02-15-2012, 05:55 PM   #169
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The right shoes can help I hear although I think that's really personal preference. It's all about practice... It's never easy to get the hang of it in a new car. I thought it was tricky when I got my first subie and now it's second nature.

I dont know about moving the pedal... I would just keep at it. That's my advice.
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Old 02-15-2012, 07:20 PM   #170
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Here is a question I have yet to find,

During a normal daily drive, when coming off a stop, what is the ideal rpm the car should be at when you release the clutch that isn't considered launching or lugging?

I try to do it between 1250-1750 rpms, I have a friend who brings it up to 2500 on his subaru every time.

What's the general consensus?
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Old 02-16-2012, 12:06 AM   #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bpatts
Here is a question I have yet to find,

During a normal daily drive, when coming off a stop, what is the ideal rpm the car should be at when you release the clutch that isn't considered launching or lugging?

I try to do it between 1250-1750 rpms, I have a friend who brings it up to 2500 on his subaru every time.

What's the general consensus?
I shoot for 1500 because it feels right to me
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Old 02-16-2012, 11:46 AM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bpatts View Post
During a normal daily drive, when coming off a stop, what is the ideal rpm the car should be at when you release the clutch that isn't considered launching or lugging?
In my opinion, it depends on the health of your clutch and weight of your flywheel. My WRX has a healthy clutch and heavy flywheel, so I take off gently by using the inertia method. I rev it to about 2k, let off the gas almost completely, and then let out the clutch fairly quickly. The initial grab on the clutch pulls the revs down fast but the car is moving by the time the revs get to low, and I can get back on the gas before it dies. It dips down below 1k sometimes with this method.

My Honda has a weak clutch (its dieing) and a super light flywheel. Reving it up to 2k and dumping it doesn't work at all, so I have to hold the revs at 2-2.5k as I ease out the clutch.

To the best of my knowledge, as long as you don't hold the revs over 2.5k with the clutch partially depressed, you are not burning your clutch up. Don't be afraid to adjust your style.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dailoh View Post
Is there anything I can do to raise the gas pedal? How are you guys coping with this or am I just a horrible driver?
You are not horrible, don't be afraid to think the car is flawed to your feet Your brake pedal should be fully adjustable, take it to a mechanic to have it adjusted if you have never done it to make sure you don't damage your master cylinder like I almost did.

I had to adjust my brake pedal over an inch. You may need to firm up your pedal too with mods, if your style requires a firm pedal (my style favors a soft pedal). TiC brake brace, upgraded braided lines, upgraded pads and fluid are ideas.
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Old 02-16-2012, 12:40 PM   #173
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I also rev my car up to around 2k, let off the gas about halfway, and then let off the clutch. It usually fully catches around 1200 rpms.

As far as heel-toe goes, I agree that during light braking the brake pedal sits too high to perform heel-toe shifts successfully, but the whole practice is only needed on modern cars when racing. In that case you'd be under heavy braking and the pedals should line up pretty well. That's just my .02; take it as you will
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Old 05-24-2012, 01:33 AM   #174
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Hmmm, quick question, I've been driving a manual (a FWD RSX-S though if that makes a difference) for about 3 years now and am looking to get a Bugeye.

Is it necessary, or more correct to do this method shown in this thread at a complete stop in first?
1) Clutch depressed, 1st gear, Rev up to 2000RPM
2) Slowly let off clutch while maintaining the 2000RPM

this whole time, I was taught (and seen other people) this method to start in first gear:
1) Clutch depressed, in 1st gear, slowly let off to where you can kind of feel the car lurk forward
2) Give it some gas and you'll be around 1500RPM with foot off the clutch

Is there a better, right, wrong, etc. way to this? Sorry if it's such a noob question, just rather learn now then damaging a clutch/transmission. Thanks!
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Old 06-05-2012, 12:36 AM   #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lefor3
Hmmm, quick question, I've been driving a manual (a FWD RSX-S though if that makes a difference) for about 3 years now and am looking to get a Bugeye.

Is it necessary, or more correct to do this method shown in this thread at a complete stop in first?
1) Clutch depressed, 1st gear, Rev up to 2000RPM
2) Slowly let off clutch while maintaining the 2000RPM

this whole time, I was taught (and seen other people) this method to start in first gear:
1) Clutch depressed, in 1st gear, slowly let off to where you can kind of feel the car lurk forward
2) Give it some gas and you'll be around 1500RPM with foot off the clutch

Is there a better, right, wrong, etc. way to this? Sorry if it's such a noob question, just rather learn now then damaging a clutch/transmission. Thanks!
I find (in my 05 sti) that I can move the car very little by just letting off the clutch. I generally give it a bit of gas as I begin to let the car lurch forward. However, in an 08 Elise, I have to give it gas immediately otherwise I'll stall. I think it just varies car to car, transmission to transmission.
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