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Old 11-02-2000, 12:37 AM   #1
Chaincat
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Question Front mounted IC for MY02 WRX

I'm just wondering, has anyone speculated yet on how hard it is going to be to install a front mounted IC on the new WRX? (Or two IC's might be possible like the 911T maybe?) I ask for a couple of reasons. I think the top mount IC is kind of silly because the IC, which you want to be as cool as possible, is sitting on top of a couple hundred pounds of hot metal. Also I seriously doubt it can 'interface' with as much air as a front mount can. The IC could be much larger (probably) in a front mount too. Also I seriously doubt the front IC spoils the aero as much as having a hood scoop does (very hefty Cd penalty, and making assumption that when front IC is installed smooth, scoop-less hood is too. The only reason I can think of to use a top mount is to try to avoid FOD from debris or stones (it is supposed to be a rally car after all) and so that there is less piping, therefor less pressure drop in the system. Am I smoking crack? Thoughts, observations, and revelations are requested.

-Brian
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Old 11-02-2000, 03:36 AM   #2
Simon Lines
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The problem with a FM 'cooler is the plumbing, idealy you need to turn the intake manifold through 180 deg, BUT it won't fit and the alternator is in the way.....
On the rally car all the bits are moved about to optimise flow
Simon
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Old 11-02-2000, 06:02 AM   #3
Kikos Fonseca
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Not always a front mounted intercooler is the best alternative.y ou will have 3 elements on a row (IC,AC,Radiator) and air flow becomes very inefective and all that heat ends into the engine compartment. It is like having a wall behind. If you work a little, ducting and routing the original intercooler would be surprised of the air temp drop results and it just goes thru the gearbox and then under the car.ah and dont forget , very easy to use a water spray cooling on the top.

KIKOS
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Old 11-02-2000, 07:18 AM   #4
Gambit
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Doesn't FM coolers provide more lag due to longer travel from I/C to engine?
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Old 11-02-2000, 11:11 AM   #5
Rally Man
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Yes it does but Iím not sure by how much. All I know that there's not much piping for the top mounted intercooler for the WRX.
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Old 11-02-2000, 01:55 PM   #6
Eric SS
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Plus, the ideal location for an IC is as close to the throttle body as possible.

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Old 11-02-2000, 03:14 PM   #7
Shik
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I don't know about the other guys running the top mounts, but on my pint size WRX intercooler on my Legacy Turbo, actual heat coming off the engine has very little effect on the actual air temps inside the intercooler...most of the time. The only time it becomes a problem is when you are sitting for, say, more then a few minutes, such as in a traffic jam or stageing lanes, with the engine running. As soon as the car starts moving again, the temp drops quickly . In my case, I don't see the top mount as a problem for 98 percent of the driving I do(juding by the air temps inside the intercooler anyways). Again, that's with the tiny first gen WRX intercooler with a slit in the hood that Subaru calls a hood scoop .

As for a front mount with the new WRX, I'm sure there will be numerous kits to choose from(as there is now), so I doubt it will be much of a problem.

[This message has been edited by Shik (edited November 02, 2000).]
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Old 11-02-2000, 03:30 PM   #8
Jay_UK
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A decent top mount (not original) will virtually provide the same cooling effects...

Yes.. a front mount will be better.. but will it be worth the effort.. and the other sacrifices...

I have run a top mount.. a front mount.. and a charge cooler (water/air cooler).

Yes... rotating the inlet is best... you move the alternator where the power steering is.. etc

The idle valve can be awkward.. but is easily dealt with. Most peope fit the early design on inlet (Version 3 or earlier)

If you are going this route, I'd suggest fitting a smaller (less tall) radiator.. and running the pipes over the top (ala WRC). This will mean that u require a front mount with entry and exit at the top.


As for the turbo..twist it... so that the compressor outlet runs under the inlet manifold to the front mount. Twisting will also allow a direct path from the intake to the compressor inlet.

This will be the design I will do on my 2.6 engine

But thats another story.

J.
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Old 11-03-2000, 11:12 PM   #9
ian/555
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Jay when are you planning on doing the 2.6L engine and what sort of power do you expect with what internal modifications?
so many questions i want to ask! but doubt you want to divulge the answers! lol
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Old 11-04-2000, 11:38 AM   #10
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Ian..

My current engine/car is virtually done...

The 2.6 will be done over Xmas... will give me something to do during the dark nights... lol

Spec will be simple... steel crank..new rods.. pistons... closed deck... wont bother reinforcing the main bearing supports... but will fit shouldered bearings...head work... deciding on cam spec... will be based on a 2.5 block.. but bored and stroked

toying with the idea of tuned primaries on the inlet... tubular design...reverse front entry... tubular headers... what to keep it simple and easy to work on....550 injectors.... garrett turbo....

probably 400-450 bhp... after torque... so will keep the comp ratio sensible... not after high boost...

J.
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Old 11-04-2000, 04:12 PM   #11
ian/555
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Jay i am glad you are keeping it simple!

What stroke and bore would give you 2.6L?

What size and make, piston and rings will you use?

You say tuned primaries, what about independant throtle bodies or is this what you mean?

You have not mentioned engine management, what system will you use to control it all?

You say a Garret turbo, but which one and why?

Sorry for all the nosey questions but if i can learn anything before attempting a similer (but not as difficult spec, no hang on i will be doing it, so it will be hard! lol ) engine myself i would be gratefull.
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Old 11-04-2000, 05:23 PM   #12
Jay_UK
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Ian,

you were right before about keeping certain specs secrets...

But some people already know certain aspects of my design...but they are sworn to silence

How do you run throttle bodies on a turbo engine ?

J.
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Old 11-04-2000, 05:59 PM   #13
XT6Wagon
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Well there is the way that most people use. The turbo(s) push air through a intake system with the IC and what not this then opens into a plenuim where the throttle bodies all connect to. Think F1 style here.
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Old 11-04-2000, 05:59 PM   #14
Digital_Boy
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Jay, you run ITB's on a turbo engine with great difficulty!

Actually, tho, I can envision such a system. It'd be fiendishly difficult to cast an intake, so you'd probably end up with a sheet intake TIG'ed up from steel or aluminum (aluminium for you English types! )
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Old 11-05-2000, 06:54 AM   #15
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Good question Jay. Wish i knew how! lol

But i do remember an issue of Car and Car Conversions (UK mag) from many Moons ago that had a feature on how to turn twin 45 carbs into throtle bodies and there was talk of it being easy enough to use on a turbo aplication.

In another old mag from years back there was a Renault5 GT Turbo running throtle bodies, but it was so long ago that i can't remember any of the detail's, as my Brain has turned to cheese since then and i was still a lickle boy back then and not into the mechanical aspect of fast cars.

Would it be possible, even easier if you ran twin parallel turbo's as you would be able to split the delivery of the exhaust gas/intake air alot easier to each ITB?
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Old 11-05-2000, 02:04 PM   #16
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As to confusing the EFi system, I don't see how as there is one aftermarket ECU (which i am aware of) which has the ability to run on just 3 cylinders on tickover (missing each cylinder in turn)

As for Bearings getting unhappy, don't know!

I thought that the wastegates job was to regulate boost, so how would it get rough?

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Old 11-06-2000, 12:39 AM   #17
XT6Wagon
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Uh, I'd still feed the pipes into a common plenum. Whay would happen to the motor if the two turbos were not putting out the same airflow, and each fed only one pair of cylinders? At a minimum I would think the motor would start to run real rough, at worst bearings would get very unhappy quick. Also it would confuse the EFI system something sick.
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Old 11-06-2000, 06:07 AM   #18
ravent
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Cool

With the Rally Knight rally cars, we have a top mount plenum the size of the scoop (the IC is almost the same size)and this also serves as a heat shield to prevent heat soak of the IC. The under hood temperatures with the hood closed will always be over 100 degrees (F) and any stopping will take the temps higher. Our biggest problem with this design was not enough heat (engine temps of 160 max)so we partially covered the fluidyne (2.5" thick core)radiator to reach 185...max.
You can ultimately get more power from a larger front (or dual)IC, but at a big sacrifice in lag, front weight, and complexity.
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Old 11-06-2000, 02:46 PM   #19
Chaincat
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Well, pretty much the reason I'm asking is I'm going to be running the car on road race courses not rally. That means that since Subaru pretty much ignored aero (for good reason, how much time do rally cars spend over 100mph?) I'll have to worry about it. That means adios hood scoop, good bye spoiler, stock one at least, and big time lowering. Which brings up a question that I'll post in a new topic. Sealing the bottom of the car and heat issues.

-Brian
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Old 11-06-2000, 04:43 PM   #20
Chaincat
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Turbo lag isn't that much of a concern to me either. Lol, wasn't there a rally car that intentionally messed with the timing of the engine while it was off throttle to make it backfire on purpose to keep the turbo spun? I thought I heard something about a team doing that over in Europe. Would that jack up the turbo since instead of getting 'mild' pulses from the engine a lot of the time it's getting blasted by the engine periodically? Just wondering, I don't plan on doing it in any case.
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