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Old 10-13-2000, 11:57 PM   #1
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Thumbs up JC Sports Turbo Group Buy Install Instructions

Coming soon, see below... First, I gotta say I'm having fun here at JC Sports. Their office neighbors had a block party tongiht and we got free burgers and beer!

Then I got a test drive in a 2.2L 15psi turbo wagon tonight, running low comp pistons, water/air intercooler, AFC, Boost controller and two extra fuel injectors in the throttle body with their own controller (like the HKS turbo demo) and it was awesome! This car does mid 14 sec qtr mile times at 6,000 feet altitude = mid 13's sealevel. It was well behaved and had a very tractable engine for daily driving. So, the extra injector's do work with the stock ECU using the extra controller. Good job!

And, Joe Cox (JC) loaned me his 7-8 psi turbo automatic to get to my mom-in-law's house tonight, while my car is apart at the shop. This used to be mjos's car before he got an S4. It pulls very nice, but was not as scarey as the 15 psi 2.2 was! I'd be happy to own this car, automatic and all. And, this is the same turbo automatic that I rode in at an autocross last summer in which I complained was too slow off the line - but with intercooler and other goodies it is great.

As for my car, we are doing a stage I now, not the basic kit

We have the disassembly instructions and pictures for the engine compartment done. Tomorrow we will cover the disassembly and removal of parts under the car (text and photos), then we will document the install of everything. That will be the most time comsuming part of the entire writeup of the instructions for the group buy kits. After the install, we will dump all the digital pictures into my laptop, and finish the final draft of the instructions there. These instructions will be made available as a PDF file when we are done, and printed to send out with the turbo kits. It will be a large file though, as I am trying to take a picture of anything we touch with a tool!

The parts that I have added to my purchase to upgrade to a stage I, which were not in the group buy are AFC, water spray onto the intercooler with larger intercooler, Boost gauge, EGT gauge and 2.5" catback. Since I have a MY00, we can't do water injection because the MAP sensor will rust! So, we are upgrading to a 6x18 intercooler and using the water spray onto the outside of the intercooler, instead of inside the intake with the air charge.

I did all this so my high compression MY2000 would survive 7 psi at sea-level should I ever drive it down there. Okay, okay... So I did it because I am now addicted to more POWER!

Once the install is done tomorrow PM, we will test and tune with the AFC. All in all, this is a good trip so far...

Larry www.ImprezaRS.com
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Old 10-14-2000, 07:24 AM   #2
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I can't wait to hear the results of this, Keep me and everyone informed.
Joshua
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Old 10-14-2000, 10:58 PM   #3
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If you would sir, Post a few pics to tide us over...........
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Old 10-15-2000, 04:53 PM   #4
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I have about 60 megapixel snapshots that have to be resized and cropped, but will have something for you all after that. We still have to finish up the install tonight.

Documenting every step is stretching a 5-8 hour install into a 20 hour job... Looking good though, especially my one peice stainless steel exhaust!

And, we made up an included new bracket for mounting the cruise control (CC) in front of the ABS, and they are planning an OPTIONAL extension cable for the CC wiring, in case you don't want to cut the wires to your CC to lengthen them. They haven't set a price on this option yet, but it shouldn't be too expensive...

Larry www.ImprezaRS.com

[This message has been edited by ImprezaRS dot com (edited October 15, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by ImprezaRS dot com (edited October 15, 2000).]
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Old 10-15-2000, 09:36 PM   #5
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Damn, no pics for now, and I spent hours relocating my CC to the same spot and making up my own bracket when I could have waited a week. So, since you are the reporter on the scene how are the kits looking? Are they waiting on any one part in particular or is everything yet to be done? Where are we at on this?
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Old 10-16-2000, 10:17 AM   #6
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I would love to see a "rough draft" this way we can ask questins that you could probably answer in the "final print" Thanks for the big effort on this!! Keep us updated on how your install/tuning is going!
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Old 10-16-2000, 10:21 AM   #7
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Hello,

Larry, just a quick note - a mid 14 car at altitude running 15 psi is a low-to-mid 14 car at sea level. Turbos compensate for altitude, so I'd guess a 14.5 goes down to a 14.3 or so. Aside from that, kewl deal I'm eager to see the final post.

Joel
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Old 10-16-2000, 01:09 PM   #8
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Talking

(LONG)

Okay, the car is done, and the instructions total 10 full pages and 160 steps in MS Word, before adding the 143 pictures we took! Some of the steps are actually 2-3 steps combined. I tried to take a digital shot of the car every time we touched it with a tool.

Let me start by saying this is not going to be a job for beginners. I especially have no desire to ever do this again! I tried to keep the instructions in layman's terms when possible. If you can afford it, give the instructions to your favorite mechanic along with a blank check and the parts, and give him a couple of days with it.

Joe Cox (JC) has a copy of the instructions that John and I created, and he is going to review the first draft and email me any corrections back to me. I did read back every step to John as we did it, but we both still could have missed something. Sometimes just picking the right description of the location of a part was a big challenge. After his editing is done, I will add the pictures and create the final PDF file. Until then I am not at liberty to ditribute intructions prematurely. They'd be all over the internet before we have any corrections. Sorry.

The one thing we don't have pictures of, but have an EXCELLENT description of, is the actual connection of the wiring of the boost control chip for MY00 so they can run more than 3psi. The description is more than enough to do this with ease, and we do have pictures of everything else like getting to the ECU, disconnecting it and replacing it. They had already tapped into the ECU for the AFC and a few other things, and it was too difficult to single out the wires. I will hopefully be finished editing the photos (resizing and cropping) by the end of the week, and maybe try to add in an arrow pointing to the item we are discussing in each step if I can figure that out, etc... Joel had a cardboard pointing arrow with yellow tape on it that we didn't know about till almost the end of the install! Bummer...

Anyway, this was basicaly a prototype of the MY00 GB kit, and we will have to add in the instructions for the MAF for the older models. Several things dragged the install out over Friday evening, two days and one all nighter last night (done at 6:00am today). One was that Joel Cox, the father of Joe and John in this family operated business, wanted to perfect the kit and try some new designs on the turbo inlet and vaccum chamber. Another was that I also did some extra stuff to the car which is not included in the GB kit. Then there was the time lost everytime they were ready to install or remove something and I was trying to get the instructions typed up on the previous step before proceeding. And, they have been so busy this week that a few parts sold out this week and we had to run around to get a few missing parts (this will improve now that Joe is full time). They are keying in inventory into a new database program with reminders to re-order. To make a long story short, we ran out of time for the optional intercooler sprayer (parts were ready) and the optional RRFPR (part not in).

Since I am running 7 psi on a high compression MY00, we have an optional fuel pressure regulator installed and set at about 45 psi until my RRFPR arrives next week, and I have an AFC to tune the EGT's as well (with both a boost gauge and EGT gauge hidden in the closed compartment where a gauge pod would usually go). We also have a larger IC and a one piece stainless steel 2.5" one-off custom exhaust, using an Aerospeed "bomb" N1 clone with smaller 4" tip.

But, the tuning isn't done yet. We just plain ran out of time this morning. It fired up first try, and the ECU learned to idle smooth within 5 minutes. No leaks or anything. We tried the car with fuel pressure regulator at 40 psi per the gauge on the regulator, (but would really like a real fuel pressure and oil pressure gauge in the dash soon). We took it for a few runs and it ran great at 7psi right off that bat!

Then we started to screw it up We'd richen it up with the AFC over a few runs till we were up to +20%, and still weren't bogging down as too rich yet. EGT's were staying 1,200 - 1,250 which were perfect. And, the car would pull nicely to redline, with a nice kick from 3,300 to 6,000 rpm. But, John and I wanted to tune for the most fuel and power that we could, before bogging down too rich or having EGT's go too low. At that point, we would just back down the AFC settings or fuel pressure.

Basically, we could have let it alone as it was the first test drive! But, we went back to JC Sports and turned up fuel pressure to 60 psi, and tried to tune with the AFC and just made it worse. We planned to lean it out at idle because of the high fuel pressures, but it was bogging down of idle and then again at 5,200 rpm in 1st, but waiting till 5,500 rpm in the rest of the gears to bog down. We kept dropping the AFC from the from the +20%, since fuel pressure was much higher, going lower and lower on the enrichment without helping the bogging. After the third run we triggered a check engine light

Figuring it was related to the 60 psi fuel pressures or something, we went back to the shop, and noticed it had a loping idle. Unfortunately, I barely had time to have them hook up the laptop and check the OBDII code - an eroneous low manifold pressure warneing! Whew, nothing serious. So, we turned down the fuel pressure to about 45 this time, just a little higher than the first runs. Then he set the AFC for only about 9% enrichment at higher RPM's, with NO leanout at idle and the idle became mirror smooth again.

Since I only had two hours to drive back to Colorado Springs before my wife had to leave for work (I watch the kids), they sent me on my way with a promise to help me tune it later. The main precaution was to listen for detonation, and make no sudden moves on the gas pedal, "take it easy for now" was their motto.

If I had boost turned down to 5 psi, this probably wouldn't be neccessary, but nobody in Denver had a Blitz boost controller in stock I'm fairly sure I overheard that a different wastegate controller set for 5 psi is going out with the GB kits, while mine is 7 psi. But, these are easy to replace later, or even better you can buy a boost controller to manage it. I will get one with a low boost setting of 3 psi = sea-level power, and high setting of 6-7 psi.

So, right now the car runs great off idle all the way to 5,500 rpm in all gears, where above that it goes flat and bogs. But it has some detonation with sudden gas pedal movements in 4th and 5th gear only, but not when I roll on the throttle to full throttle slowly. Yep, 100 mph comes up faster in 5th now than in 4th gear before!

Like I said, with no AFC changes, and 40 psi on our first runs, it ran the best... So, I will see if Diz will help me tune the AFC and fuel pressure, since I can't make it back to JC Sports for a couple of weeks.

All in all this was hard work with great rewards to be seen soon. Now I kinda like the idea of KISS (keep it simple stupid) and running with the included fuel pump, 5 psi, and only adding a 2.5" exhaust and a RRFPR. It seems like that would do nicely. But, I already took the dive into an AFC, and now am looking at boostcontrol, maybe timing control, and a lot of work...

Too bad the TECII is over $2,000. I want something like that more than ever and might have the funds by next summer... JC SPorts has a "race setup" programable ECU for the race car they are building, and is supposed to have a programable ECU for the street in the next couple of months.

I will keep you posted on the status of the instructions and tuning, but with 5psi and fuel pump, there isn't going to be any tuning for you guys. But, wait, you'll get the itch more more juice...

Larry www.ImprezaRS.com

PS: It takes 3 psi of boost to regain lost power due to 6,00 feet of altitude. So, the 15 psi in the 2.2L low compression wagon I rode in is like a 12 psi turbo at sea-level. The turbo adds 15 psi to the 11.7 atmspeheric pressure we have up here - IT DOES NOT CORRECT FOR ALTITUDE TO 14.7 ON TOP OF THAT. I remember even Shiv confirming that!

[This message has been edited by ImprezaRS dot com (edited October 16, 2000).]
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Old 10-16-2000, 02:27 PM   #9
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Isn't 1200 for an EGT reading way too rich? I tune mine for 1400, & some DSM guys are running 1600.
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Old 10-16-2000, 02:30 PM   #10
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PS: Puel pressure is 50, not 45! I really need to drop it to between 40 and 45, don't know how

Before:



After:



[This message has been edited by ImprezaRS dot com (edited October 16, 2000).]
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Old 10-16-2000, 02:42 PM   #11
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Thumbs up

Looks Great!! Maybe you can help me out with a question I have. How big (diameter) is the air inlet to the turbo? I have a '99 and want to use the stock air box and am trying to figure out what size silicone hose I need to connect it all together. Is it 3" like the rest or smaller due to the smaller turbo? I greatly appreciate your help. And again, looks great, that IC is HUGE!! Already makes me jealous that I am getting the small one
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Old 10-16-2000, 02:48 PM   #12
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Hello,

Larry, great description. I have to agree with RidinLow, it sounds like you're running way too rich. Check your tailpipe - it's probably black with soot. I know this sounds untechnical, but clean tip = okay or lean, orangish is very lean, black is rich

But, at 7 psi, you should be enriching a bit - but 20% and 60 psi, no wonder the car was stumbling.

As for the correction, a turbo car running 0 psi would have more power, at altitude, than an NA car. Why? Because the spring doesn't care much about outside pressure. A 0 psi spring would take 14.7 psi to push open. So a 0 psi turbo setup would vent only when the manifold pressure reached 14.7, which is where it's at for a sea-level NA car. There is some difference since a 0 psi spring likely takes slightly less than 14.7 psi to push open at altitude since the spring normally gets 14.7 psi of atmospheric pressure helping it. But the difference is not as great as 3 psi. Anyway, 3 psi isn't worth 14.5-to-13.5

At any rate, good luck with the further tuning. Before you take what I said about the temperatures to heart, where is your temp gauge located? If it's far downstream, then your numbers will be lower for the same temp as if it's really close to the heads. But in gneneral, it sounds like you're WAY rich.

Joel

edit: Larry, nice pics. What is that large object right to the driver's side of the ABS in the after picture that's not there in the before picture? And BTW, what? No Larry's Intake on Larry's pre-turbo car?

[This message has been edited by Joel Gat, 1.8L (edited October 16, 2000).]
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Old 10-16-2000, 03:08 PM   #13
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Joel, I KNOW I am rich. Yes the tail pipe is now sooty. The EGT probe is mounted on the up-pipe near the turbo. This is a consistent spot for JC Sports, so they can use EGT numbers the same with any of their kits. They want EGT's to be 1200 - 1350 under hard driving for safety, using that location.

We initially ran 40 psi fuel pressure and up to +20% with the AFC, not 60 psi fuel pressure. Then when we upped the pressure to 60 psi and were trying to lean it out with each subsequent run when we got the eroneous check engine light.

I messed up the AFC settings now, and it is worse I can't figure out this simple FPR and lower the pressure, so I'm forced to lean it out with the AFC now. We'll work on it a lot over the next few days.

The thingamajig next to the ABS is the fully operational cruise control unit!

The inlet is 2.5" due to the smaller turbo, and we use a 3" to 2.5" reducer for the air filter.

As for IC's, rumor has it that the kits might get a 5"x16" intercooler - they'll know soon!

And we took off the larry's cold air intake to show a stock engine compartment and document the install from the begining!

I will keep in mind what you said about the adjustment for sea-level, because I should only be running 5 psi without a J&S or ITC right now! That might change when I get my IC sprayer in two weeks. I have ordered a Blitz boost controller, and will set it for 2-3 psi low boost and 5-6 psi hi boost until I get more safehuards for the engine.

Take care,

Larry www.ImprezaRS.com
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Old 10-16-2000, 03:41 PM   #14
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What is JC charging for the IC, BOV and piping?

I'd love to add this to my 93 Legacy.
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Old 10-16-2000, 05:17 PM   #15
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Why isn't the EGT probe mounted in the headers near the exhaust ports where it should be?
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Old 10-16-2000, 07:03 PM   #16
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hey,to my knoledge and other tunners ive talked to over the past year,tha s-afc on a myoo or newer does no good at all.all tests done show that the ecu after a run or two sees what the afc is doing and recompencates for it buy putting the fuel right back where it started.
i tunned mine for almost 6 months,and never did the afc change anything.oh it did change one thing...the check engine light comes on. you will be fine with just a rrfpr,fuel pump,and 93octane at 7 psi. return the s-afc and get a j&s safeguard.
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Old 10-16-2000, 10:35 PM   #17
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Like I said before, JC sports has all their EGT probes in this place, and they know they are looking for 1200 to 1350 from the cars with it there - so it is always the same number they shoot for on every car they tune.

If I moved the EGT to the headers near the exhaust port, when I report the numbers to them, it won't mean the same thing as with the other cars they've tuned. I have considered doing another probe, and having a switch installed to let me flip between the two probes. I would like to know where everyone else has the EGT probe, i.e. which header, how far from ports, and why this spot, etc.

As for the ECU re-setting itself back to the pre-AFC settings, I was told by several people that you only needed to reset the ECU once a month on the MY00 because of this. Anyone else have news about this issue.

It is making significantly more power, but we are still tuning it before I go for some real numbers. It feels like a V-8, and much better than my '93 Taurus SHO ever did. We're guessing 225 sea-level HP with my 7 psi.

Full boost is achieved at 2,500 rpm and I still have a tiny bit of detonation passing through 3,000 rpm, although it is very very minor and is only present for <1/3 second. Then there is a flat spot above 5,900 rpm which responds to more fuel pressure but that richens up idle too much (at 45 psi now). This is why we need a RRFPR...

Apparently with the MY00 you get an eroneous check engine light for "low manifold air pressure" when you tune an AFC to negative numbers (i.e. lean it out). So, running 50 psi fuel pressure get rid of the flat spot at 5,900 rpm was too much fuel pressure for the AFC to compensate for without getting the "CE" light.

In two weeks I get my "rising rate fuel pressure riser" and boost controller to tune it really well. Any remaining detonation should get better with my intercooler spray mist and some octane booster (we only get 91 octane up here). I hate to get a J&S safeguard which will over react to ping and retard 20 degrees all of a sudden - bad for power, but good for motor. I don't want an ITC since it only tunes "ignition retard vs rpm" and I want retard to be "boost" referenced.

For the million dollars, a TECII is the final answer... One experiment I will try tomorrow is to set the AFC to zero adjustment at low and hi throttle, and drive it around all day and see if the ECU learns a good fuel curve with 45 psi fuel pressure and no AFC activity.

Larry www.ImprezaRS.com
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Old 10-16-2000, 10:55 PM   #18
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Hello,

Just a quick bit on the exhaust temp sensor location. There is no way that JC or anyone else can determine what the appropriate exhaust temp should be at the pre-turbo location. To do so would require setting the engine up as is, outside of the car, with the headers in place and right at the exit spot of the header into the turbo, use some expensive gas chromatography or other spectral analysis equipment to determine the exact oxygen content of the air coming out right there. Actually, then, once that's done, everything would have to be moved back into the engine compartment and then a temp reading taken.

Only then would you be able to corrolate a temperature taken with an O2 presence and thus with what's going on in the engine. Good exhaust gas temps can be determined mathematically at the exhaust valve. The further you go away from the exhaust valve, the less you have any clue what the temp means. At the rate that heat is lost from the exhaust stream, you can bet that the heat-loss function is some kind of logrithmic or exponential scale.

So, even those measuring the temps an inch away from the head are still guessing at an approximate AF ratio. Their guesses, however, are exponentially or logrithmically (I don't know which) more accurate than a guess at the turbo.

All that being said, there are rough approximations that can be made and as long as you're shooting for a plus or minus 0.5 in your AF ratio, who cares, right?

At the turbo is about as inaccurate as you want to get. It's still good enough for rough estimated tuning (which is what you're doing with piggybacks anyway), but not good enough for real accuracy.

Joel - not saying anything bad about this turbo setup and knowing that at least a dozen of you can name some drag racer or another who measures his exhaust temps 4 miles from the exhaust valve and is accurate to 1/10000000 of a degree. yeah, okay, don't tell me about it
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Old 10-16-2000, 10:59 PM   #19
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I guess this is more of a question for JC - I've got an auto '95 Legacy LS 2.2, about how much would a turbo/IC kit run with and without install? It sounds like this work has been done at least a few times on the 2.2 - how durable is the engine in handling the stress of the turbo kit? How high a psi can your run on an auto 2.2?
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Old 10-17-2000, 07:24 AM   #20
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Well, an EGT probe mount directly after the exhaust port is the standard location for tuning. Like Joel so eloquently stated, putting a probe anywhere else (especially near the turbo!) gets you fairly meaningless results.

But, if JC for some reason mounts their EGT probes in this position & has properly tuned their cars to 1200 degrees, then 1200 degrees for you should be ok too. However, I'd like to know how they found 1200 degrees to be optimal with this probe location.
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Old 10-17-2000, 09:37 AM   #21
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Any more pics to tease us with?
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Old 10-17-2000, 06:08 PM   #22
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Talking

I do know that the company that re-builds the turbos says the optimal operating temperature for the turbo is 1,200 to 1,300 degrees. Maybe that is part of the answer.

This next part is in response to some private questions people have asked me. I am just using the included little black box for MY00 "boost fix" (with the torque chip circuit removed), included fuel pump, an optional AFC, and a borrowed fuel pressure regulator which is now dropped to 42 psi. My Bell 20007 RRFPR is not installed yet, since I just got it today. I have no ITC, intercooler water-spray or boost controller at this time either. Just the stock 6.5 psi wastegate, and with 1 psi loss across the IC, the motor is seeing just 5.5 psi.

Just for the heck of it, I turned the fuel pressure down to 42 from 45-50 yesterday, and zero'd out all the settings on the AFC so it wouldn't be used. I drove it around for about two hours this morning like this and it runs pretty well from idle to 5,500 rpm. It falls flat on it's face at 5,500 without the fuel pressure or AFC, but it does run acceptably well, and drivability is NOT a problem.

Obviously it also didn't pull as strong as it does with the AFC and more fuel pressure, but since I was using octane booster today there was no detonation, and the EGT's didn't climb at all - so not too lean. So, the kit will run decently without a rising rate fuel pressure riser (RRFPR) or an AFC, ITC and all that other junk; but I would at least get an RRFPR since it will help take advantage of the bigger fuel pump.

Then, with the lower fuel pressure and the AFC not being used, and having driving it all morning this way, I did two gentle qtr miles on the g-tech pro without slipping the clutch past 3,000 rpm on the launch. I should first mention that a stock RS up here at 6,000 feet will typically run about 18 seconds at Bandimere Speedway. 8Complex, you could attest to the fact that your car was a "dog" when you drove through here before.

My times dropped from 16.9/84 with intake as the only mod and empty gas tank to 15.7/91.5 with gentle launch and full gas tank - and I still have plenty of people telling me that a 7 psi turbo at this altitude is like a 4 psi turbo at sea-level. Ask anyone with a turbo if the power doesn't feel flat at high altitdes. We drop from 14.7 to 11.7 worth of air pressure at 6,000 feet. I believe the wastegate controller is looking at relative pressure and doing 6.5 psi above that, not absolute cylinder filling pressure and doing 9.5 psi - or my boost gauge would reflect this. I don't think Joel Gat has his info right, but...

And, remember, this was with NO tuning, a gentle launch and stock clutch. I'd like a real clutch I can trust for a hard launch. I know I could take a second off the times. I didn't get a chance to try a qtr mile with AFC and fuel pressure settings restored, since there were too many police cars out there. I don't have a good safe place for doing 0-100 right now, although there are plenty of places for doing 60-100 of course. Just nowhere to stop and start from a stand-still without being rear-ended or ticketed...

Obviously the RRFPR is gonna be the next most important part of this install, because the turbo clearly prefers 50 psi or more for top end, but not that much at idle. However, this test tells me that this kit works without an ITC and AFC and other gadgets (at least with a 6x18" IC and octane booster).

Larry www.ImprezaRS.com
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Old 10-17-2000, 08:28 PM   #23
Pipercub
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Will there be an online version of this install manual with color photos? I assume that the printed version will be B&W for expense reasons.
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Old 10-17-2000, 08:48 PM   #24
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Ok, but if 1200 degrees is optimal for this turbo, then your EGT gauge is being used to determine a maximum efficient boost setting for the turbo and not for monitoring how rich/lean your motor is running, right?
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Old 10-17-2000, 08:58 PM   #25
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There will be an online COLOR copy of a turbo.pdf file on my website and www.jcsports.net, which can be viewed online or downloaded.

I am trying to get my dad to print 20-30 copies in full color at his print shop for free as a favor, since I just mailed him a year supply ($1,900) of blood pressure medicine!

I have completed the written instructions, and am now in the process of editing the photos to paste into the written instructions using MS Word! I have to crop and resize pix, and have to add pointer arrows if I can...

For those of you DYING for pix, see the raw pix at http://www.imprezars.com/images/turboinstall for all 36mb of pictures!

Later,

Larry www.ImprezaRS.com
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