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Old 10-30-2000, 06:29 AM   #1
yebokmj
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Post Banjo Bolt or new oil pan for turbo oil line?

There is a discussion of the posibilty of using a banjo bolt for the return oil line from the turbo. Is there anyone out there that is using this setup instead of an altered pan? Or are there any opinions on the disadvantages or advantages?
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MY98 RS
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Old 10-30-2000, 01:09 PM   #2
8Complex

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It's the same difference as having an oil drain valve instead of a plug, though... probably shorter, actually. It's an ok idea, but personally I would want it to be placed in an ideal location rather then an easy location. Function over simplicity.
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Old 10-30-2000, 01:38 PM   #3
rao
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Oil pan removal and replacement is at most a 2 hour job. I would want the return welded in place - you don't want it to fail.
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Old 10-30-2000, 03:50 PM   #4
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DO NOT USE THE BANJO FITTINGS! they will cause the oil to back up into the turbo because it comes in under the oil level. It will also cause additional foaming of the oil due to the air bubbles having to come up through the oil.

Thank you, Kevin
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Old 10-30-2000, 03:56 PM   #5
bill harvey
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so kevin i take it our new kits won't come with the banjo bolts?
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Old 10-30-2000, 04:09 PM   #6
Tim Prudence
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"DO NOT USE THE BANJO FITTINGS! they will cause the oil to back up into the turbo because it comes in under the oil level."

This is not possibly if the turbo is in a location that is higher than the oil level. Just because the oil comes in at the bottom of oil pan doesn't mean that oil will flow up into the turbo. Oil will sit in the line at a height equal to that of the oil level, but will go now higher.

I'm using a banjo bolt and I think it works fine. It may only be a two hour job, but until somebody gives me some definitive evidence as to why I should not use a banjo bolt, then that's two hours I'm not going to spend.
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Old 10-30-2000, 04:16 PM   #7
8Complex

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I'm not sure that the banjo bolt would actually flow enough... Also if crankcase pressure builds up somehow (say, during car warmup when the cool air turns to hot air), the oil will be forced back up towards the turbo, but will only last as long as the pressure isn't relieved. This, of course, is my theory, not a fact, so don't take it as THE word or anything.
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Old 10-30-2000, 04:24 PM   #8
Tim Prudence
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8,

In the situation you described, whether plausible or not, if the banjo bolt is replaced by a real tap into the oil pan above oil level, then instead of oil flowing up the line to the turbo, air will flow up the line, causing foaming that Kevin talked about. I still do not see how one way is definitively better than the other.
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Old 10-30-2000, 04:45 PM   #9
SteveS
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At least with the Minnam kit that I'm using, the turbo sits VERY low in the engine compartment. Drainage was an issue and a banjo bolt wouldn't have worked.
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Old 10-30-2000, 05:00 PM   #10
mcgyver
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Being a plumber I have a couple of theories.

The banjo could be a little restrictive (not straight through design) I would think there should be no backpressure on the return line. I think banjo works for pressure, probably not volume,(ie. Brake line). But the banjo keeps the oil locked-up in the return line (hence, no air & no foaming) due to being below the oil level.

The drain up high in the pan could cause the return line to drain & fill with air (when off). Also, when running, the oil under pressure pumping through the return line into the pan, would cause foaming when it hits the oil(kinda like filling a swimming pool with a garden hose), air always rises out from the splashing.

I think the drain up high with a tube to the bottom of the pan would be best (no air, no splashing, & no drainback).

I could be wrong, just my $.02

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Old 10-30-2000, 11:11 PM   #11
Pipercub
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I have spoken with several turbo shops today and I am very satisfied that the Banjo Bolt is a fine solution. Ed at ISR gave me a fine analogy. Have you ever seen a tank (home heating oil comes to mind) with a seperate glass level next to it? This drain hose would work on the same principle. The level in the line would be the same height as the oil in the pan.

Now as far as the height of the turbo. The welded in drain is several inches higher than the Banjo nut. Therefore if the turbo is too low for a Banjo nut then the laws of physics say the drain being several inches higher is even worse.

I called JC Sports today and had a discussion with one of the guys who agreed with my assesment, pulled up my file and set me up to recieve the Banjo bolt in leu of the oil pan. Now there may be division within JC sports about this but that isn't my concern. I myself am going with the bolt setup.
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Old 10-31-2000, 12:46 AM   #12
Imprezer
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The setup you are talking about doesn't require you taking off the pan to weld on anything. Thats an advantage. The disadvantage is, your oil pan is first to get hit by rocks and other junk, so with that bango bolt in place, the bolt becomes the lowest part so if you hit something, you will rip it out and loose all oil.
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Old 10-31-2000, 10:59 AM   #13
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Here is a quote from "Turbochargers" by Hugh MacInnes:

OIL RETURN-Oil entering the turbocharger is relatively air free. As oil passes through the bearings with the turbo running as high as 130,000 rpm, air is whipped in and the oil looks like dirty whipped cream. For this reason, use a drain line from the turbocharger that is much larger than the oil-supply line.
The line must angle downward at all points and have no kinks or "sink traps". The drain line must dump oil to the crankcase ABOVE THE OIL LEVEL. Running the oil line below the oil level causes foamy oil to build up in the line and back up into the turbocharger bearing housing. Thwe only place it can go from there is through the seals.
Pages 75-76

Just for the record, we will not honor the 12mo/12,000mile warranty on these turbos if you use this "banjo bolt drain". We have never had a turbo fail that has been installed by us and run at 5-7psi. WE HAVE BEEN TURBOCHARGING SUBARUS SINCE 1978! NO ONE ELSE HAS THAT EXPERIENCE ON THIS BOARD!
Please dont try to save a couple of hours install time and end up with a broken turbo.
I just want these kits to work well for everyone who buys them for a long time.

Sincerely, Kevin@JCSports

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Old 10-31-2000, 11:37 AM   #14
8Complex

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OIL RETURN-Oil entering the turbocharger is relatively air free. As oil passes through the bearings with the turbo running as high as 130,000 rpm, air is whipped in and the oil looks like dirty whipped cream."

Where is the air coming from if the system is sealed and the oil line is relatively air free? It'd seem to me that you'd only get a very small amount of air in there and a very small amount of "dirty whipped cream" as well.
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Old 10-31-2000, 02:34 PM   #15
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Nick, I know that the "whipped cream" analogy is kinda funny but, that is directly from the book. There is always some air being pulled into the oil supply line and it is enough to cause the "foaming" mentioned before. My main concern here is that we dont want any dissappointed customers with this GB turbo kit and I feel it is my job to keep the participants informed of things like this.

Thank you, Kevin
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Old 10-31-2000, 02:55 PM   #16
Pimp-sube
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To further my explaination, here are some more excerps from "Turbochargers by Hugh MacInnes":

IMPROPER OIL-DRAINS:

As mentioned before, oil enters the turbochargerfrom the engine system AT ENGINE PRESSURE. After the oil passes through the bearing it must flow BY GRAVITY out of the bearing housing and back to the engine.
ANYTHING restricting the oil-drain line will cause the oil level in the bearing housing to rise above the oil seals.
page 123

Kevin
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Old 10-31-2000, 05:00 PM   #17
kid22
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pipe it down killers, i used the same setup Tim Prudence did and it worked fine. it's just a matter of convenience with the line welded on because u don't have a nasty mess when you change your oil, either way works...
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