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Old 07-19-2004, 02:35 PM   #26
Farfrumwork
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Sweet Matt, glad to see you got the cams and some dyno time! I bet it feels like a beasty with all that nice torque.

And yup, nice #'s for 5000ft ASL.

Let's see some 1320' runs for comparo sake.... Disclaimer for those at SEA LEVEL (we are not ) I bet on a ~15.5-15.7@ 85-87 (stock wrx's pull low 15's@88/89 or so) Essensially back to what a stock RS can pull at sea level I guess - 23% gain from mods to cover the ~20% loss in power up here. ?? I'm curious anyhow... maybe you'll pilot that thing to a low 15? (\benchracing off\)

Again, glad to see you staying N/A with the 2.5! coool

-Chad
(will be back into a Subie sooooooon, but not soon enough)
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Old 07-19-2004, 03:43 PM   #27
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What altitude are you at? I put down 132.1/134.6 on a dyno that a stock WRX puts down 150-155whp on. That would make us close to equivalent if I'm not mistaken. Which would mean that basically your cams are just making up for lost power at altitude.

edit: whoops, I didn't see Chad's post. My point basically stands though.



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Old 07-19-2004, 05:54 PM   #28
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Kevin,
Thanks for putting this up and getting this info out there.

Cobb isn't paying me to market for them, but they take good care of me as a customer. And I am getting hooked up with a voucher for a free evening of runs at Bandimere Speedway, so I should have some 1/4 mi times to post in the next few weeks. For whoever asked how much I can gain from tuning? Probably 10hp or so. My car was definitely running rich for the last 1500 rpm or so and spitting smoke out the pipe. We'll see. Because not many people have this set up, I will have to have Trey tune the car on the dyno and not be able to use one of their staged package reflashes when the AP is released. As such, I will have another dyno sheet to post at that point...
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Old 07-19-2004, 05:57 PM   #29
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Oh,
And JeffG, I have has a CEL ever since the headers went on. The CEL was cleared when my engine was pulled, but it came back on after about 100 miles or so. Hopefully Cobb will have the AP finished by October when I need to emissions test. Otherwise I might be looking for a stock EJ25 just to swap for emissions testing. But then I would also be able to have my block built at the same time and not reverse the work until the bottom end is done...
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Old 07-19-2004, 06:38 PM   #30
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WOW..nice dyno curve...Im staying this rought also.
Might add a little bit to his list though...balanced crank to 8500 RPM, pistons, rods, ported intake and heads, and etc...
Nick...I love NA!!
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Old 07-19-2004, 07:52 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Monson
NO,
The spicy cams are stated to be able to take advantage of a higher redline. I have never seen it written anywhere that they "give most of their gains at redline and beyojnd". And since you were so anxious, you are just gonna have to wait for Kevin to host it The delay here has been that I can only get online every other day at a friend's house and just sent him the sheet 15 minutes ago. It is not because I can't find a host...
Nice dyno run. I like the 145ish lb/ft torque, at 2000rpms and that curve....sweet. Still, that line shows you are missing out on a lot more power that you could be making. Right now, your redline is holding you back.
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Old 07-23-2004, 03:35 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JC
What altitude are you at? I put down 132.1/134.6 on a dyno that a stock WRX puts down 150-155whp on. That would make us close to equivalent if I'm not mistaken. Which would mean that basically your cams are just making up for lost power at altitude.
JC
JC,
It is really hard to compare numbers from one dyno to another, especially when you add in the elevation factor. Plus different temps on different days affect things a lot. It was 84.9 degress when my dyno was taken.

But let's use some good old math to try and sort out this comparison. For starters, just straight across, on your dyno, a WRX makes 23hp more than your car. On the Cobb dyno, the WRX makes 19 more hp than my car. Those 4 hp at the wheels are probably around 6-7 at the crank. But that doesn't take into account that basically each hp is "larger" on your dyno. So. let's use algebra to sort this out more "accurately".

132.1/155 = x/169.9, where x is what your car would be expected to make on Cobb's dyno. Solve for X and you are making 144.8hp@the wheels.

Or let's put my car on your dyno:
151.1/169.9 = x/155 solve for X and I would make 137.8hp@ the wheels.
So, with real math we are looking at a difference of 6-7hp at the wheels regardless of where we test both cars. The one factor that gets fudged here is that driveline losses are not constant and become less the more power is gained. We would need a lot more "samples" to try and figure out how that efficiency changes as we move up the power curve on the RS...

I am quite impressed by your numbers. Cobb's stage II with their street cams makes 141hp on their dyno. If I've got your set up correct, you are making more than that with stock cams. That is one real solid engine you have there...
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Old 07-23-2004, 03:44 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3BadHabbits
WOW..nice dyno curve...Im staying this rought also.
Might add a little bit to his list though...balanced crank to 8500 RPM, pistons, rods, ported intake and heads, and etc...
Nick...I love NA!!
Nick,
The only reason to go to 8500 rpms would be if you had the appropriate cams to make power up there, and then you would just have a really peaky engine with a powerband that really would only be from 5500 on up. That would be good for a drag car, but for any other motorsports or a tracked street car, it is just not a very usable power band. You can find the details of my long term build plans if you search around. But the short version is a 7500 rpm redline using the cams I currently have (with actual shifting occurring between 7000-7200 rpms) with 12:1 CR pistons.

And good luck porting that intake. To see any real gains, you need to get to the bends, which requires cutting it in half, porting it and welding the thing back together. Only worth the time or trouble once you have fully built the rest of your engine and are looking to eek those last few horses out of your build...
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Old 07-23-2004, 06:14 PM   #34
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Very nice numbers Matt. Glad to finally see some private numbers for COBB's parts. And I wish you the best of luck in your future builds.

Oh, and welcome to the 200hp club.
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Old 07-23-2004, 06:25 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Monson
Nick,
The only reason to go to 8500 rpms would be if you had the appropriate cams to make power up there, and then you would just have a really peaky engine with a powerband that really would only be from 5500 on up. That would be good for a drag car, but for any other motorsports or a tracked street car, it is just not a very usable power band. You can find the details of my long term build plans if you search around. But the short version is a 7500 rpm redline using the cams I currently have (with actual shifting occurring between 7000-7200 rpms) with 12:1 CR pistons.

And good luck porting that intake. To see any real gains, you need to get to the bends, which requires cutting it in half, porting it and welding the thing back together. Only worth the time or trouble once you have fully built the rest of your engine and are looking to eek those last few horses out of your build...
i thought about this for awile...since i wrote that last post actually. and 7500 sounds good. (so used to my civic reving to 9500 RPM with that spoon computer. that why im so addicted!!)Im actually going to use a STI short block so i dont have to "do" the bottom end. It should be good for 7500 rpm. Oh did I say "port" the intake..I meant "hone" I think im going to send it out to extrude hone so they can run that stuff through it.
Oh by the way..im going turbo now.. . i found a couple people selling their stock Sti turbo's and some other things.
going to make my girls car a N/A monster. I love N/A, so i need at least one in the family..
i need to know what happens to your car, run that thing at see level. i live aound the block from a track that is 3ft above sea level. If you run good numbers i might change my mind again...So many options..so little money
good luck
Nick
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Old 07-23-2004, 06:46 PM   #36
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Btw 3BadHabits your PM mailbox is full
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Old 07-25-2004, 11:44 AM   #37
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i hate when that happens..this new update to the forum sucks
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Old 07-26-2004, 03:20 AM   #38
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Nice numbers. It's interesting, because my MY01 RS and Sybir's 96 Legacy, both with unmodified EJ25s dyno'd on S-Squared's Mustang dyno both put out 93-99hp at the wheels. I'm wondering if it's because they're both automatics. But a 25hp discrepancy between EJ25 motors on the same dyno is confusing me.
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Old 07-26-2004, 04:07 AM   #39
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I wish Mustang Dynos had some better dyno graph outputs - the scale is just too damn small! (Just a pet peeve of mine...)

Anyway, that's damn impressive, Matt. That torque curve in particular is unbelievably flat - it looks like an automatic's torque curve! (Your car isn't a 4EAT, is it?)

As for getting your car emissions checked, you should be able to just reset the ECU (hence clearing the CEL) right before you go to the emissions facility and be good to go.

Pat Olsen
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Old 07-30-2004, 12:19 PM   #40
Matt Monson
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Pat,
My car is a 5 speed. As for the dyno graph, it actually does have the ability to run a smaller scale, but they just don't tend to run at that resolution unless you are using it during a tune. If you look at Cobb's dyno results on their site, they have them running a couple hundred rpms resolution.

3badhabbits actually pointed out something that I overlooked on my remarks above about dyno math. My NA car suffers greater losses with elevation than a WRX does. If I ran my car on a dyno at sea level, I may be even closer to a stock WRX's numbers because of that. But again, this is all just theory when you don't have hard empirical numbers to show these things...
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Old 07-30-2004, 08:00 PM   #41
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your car will run better at sea level because mine runs 15.7-.9 all stock
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Old 07-30-2004, 08:39 PM   #42
Matt Monson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3BadHabbits
your car will run better at sea level because mine runs 15.7-.9 all stock
I am well aware that it will run better at sea level. The point I was making is that the NA cars are hurt by altitude more than the boosted ones, and the discrepancy between my power and a wrx, if we were to run both cars at sea level, would be less than the 18hp that exists on the Modern/Cobb dyno...
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Old 08-02-2004, 11:59 AM   #43
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I'm replying because I plan on doing my cams and exhaust in the spring and I don't think this thread is getting enough attention.

This plot is exactly what a lot of people have been waiting to see, there's been so much hype, but now where is everyone?

Great to see Matt!

My '00RS hit 60k last night, so I'm hoping before I hit 70k I can have all of this in place and running. I don't plan on using a UD Pulley, but I do have a 13lb flywheel in there which I think is enough lightening. I highly suggest you get one...makes shifting a lot easier...should bring 1/4mi times down too. =)

Thanks for the info!

-- Dave


PS: Ask a mod to rename the thread "cobb spicy cams & equal length dyno results"

You should pull a lot more hits that way...too many cam question threads in here...you should end it for them =)
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Old 08-02-2004, 05:16 PM   #44
Matt Monson
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Dave,
I agree with your flywheel thoughts. When I get a lighter flywheel the pulley will go back to stock. Anyone who doesn't understand the why of this should read Mike Shield's article about lightening and inertia on the SPDtuning site.

And let's see if it will let me rename the thread...
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Old 08-02-2004, 05:46 PM   #45
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It renamed your post, not the thread...just PM a local mod =)

Yeah, everything I have heard says either do pulleys, or FW...not both.

I have a hard enough time shifting with the LW flywheel and AC on...w/o AC it's perfect, with AC, you really have to shift fast.

-- Dave

Last edited by AcquaCow; 08-02-2004 at 05:54 PM.
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Old 08-02-2004, 05:51 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Monson
I am well aware that it will run better at sea level. The point I was making is that the NA cars are hurt by altitude more than the boosted ones, and the discrepancy between my power and a wrx, if we were to run both cars at sea level, would be less than the 18hp that exists on the Modern/Cobb dyno...
Very much so dude...
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Old 08-23-2004, 12:58 PM   #47
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Bump for info on how long it took for the cam install...I need to know so that if I do this in the semi-near future, I can see how long I'll be suby-less.

Thanks,

-- Dave
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Old 08-23-2004, 01:10 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AcquaCow
This plot is exactly what a lot of people have been waiting to see, there's been so much hype, but now where is everyone?

I agree! I just don't own a 2.5RS. I still come back at times and look at the dyno graph like it's going to magically apply to my cars. The torque curve is amazingy to me. To others, it may not be a big deal though. Looks way cooler and more usable than some of these 'peak and valley' torque curves you see of some of the WRXs.
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Old 08-23-2004, 02:35 PM   #49
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Congratulations!!! Good to hear you're making so much power. Can't wait to get my heads in the car (they're sitting in my garage, pining for my engine bay) if what you have is any indication, rex's don't stand a chance....

"Remember, all good things in life are natural...a nice rack, good food, and wide torque bands"
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Old 08-23-2004, 02:38 PM   #50
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I saw someone's sig today on wrxforum:

"torque > sex"

I just had to share that
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