Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Monday June 29, 2015
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Engine Management & Tuning

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-22-2011, 06:09 AM   #526
ride5000
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 32792
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: lincoln, ri
Vehicle:
2003 GGA MBP
12.9 / 105+

Default

ptfb is not just "kind of annoying," it makes for a SLOWER CAR on anything but a drag race.

why? because modulating torque output via the gas pedal is a kind of important thing when driving at the edge of the traction circle. and yes, i do that on the street, on every highway entrance ramp.

sorry, but i find not ramping target boost according to TPS lazy and counterproductive to a responsive car.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
ride5000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Old 09-22-2011, 09:51 AM   #527
Phatron
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 36033
Join Date: Apr 2003
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Tuning Lab
Vehicle:
CEO PhatBottiTuning
2006 STi GTX3582 + Meth

Default

So using a mbc is counterproductive to a responsive car?
Phatron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2011, 03:06 PM   #528
NSFW
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 140444
Join Date: Feb 2007
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Near Seattle, WA
Vehicle:
05 Stage Free LGT
ATP 3076, 6MT, AVO FMIC

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
So using a mbc is counterproductive to a responsive car?
Depends whether you mean response to stomping on the pedal or response to feathering it.
NSFW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2011, 03:43 PM   #529
ride5000
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 32792
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: lincoln, ri
Vehicle:
2003 GGA MBP
12.9 / 105+

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
So using a mbc is counterproductive to a responsive car?
i thought you were smarter than that?
ride5000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2011, 03:47 PM   #530
Phatron
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 36033
Join Date: Apr 2003
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Tuning Lab
Vehicle:
CEO PhatBottiTuning
2006 STi GTX3582 + Meth

Default

Maybe we just have different driving styles....cause i've run it from a td04 up to gtx30 and never had any issues with drivability. interesting. diff strokes diff folks

but i love how you have to make it personal and insult my intelligence
Phatron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2011, 03:47 PM   #531
BrandonDrums
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 118630
Join Date: Jun 2006
Chapter/Region: South East
Vehicle:
2005 Wrx wagon
Red

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
So using a mbc is counterproductive to a responsive car?
No no, it makes the car MUCH more responsive and it's far superior than the stock setup for many reasons.

What we were discussing is that one of the primary benefits of using the hybrid setup is being able to let the MBC control max boost in wot situations while retaining the ability to limit boost at partial throttle and through the rpms if you so choose.

Many tuners don't use that function, they simply tune let the MBC control boost at all throttle positions and revs and just have the EBCS in the hookup to retain the ECU's ability to limit boost in limp modes etc.

Essentially, a manual boost controller alone is quicker to respond to quick overboost spike situations than a hybrid, it's negligible in most street applications but there IS just a little more delay between the overboost and the boost signal pushing to the WGA to correct it on a hybrid setup vs. Manual Boost Control only. Like I said though, it's negligible in most street cars.

However, for a race car with a giant turbo running very high boost, using just a Manual Boost Controller might make more sense vs. hybrid because you have fewer hoses and gadgetry in the boost signal system to fill up with air in order to apply the actuation force to the wastegate.

On a high-pressure giant turbo big power car, those boost spikes can be more severe than on street driven cars so ditching the limp mode protection the EBCS system provides is less of a concern than limiting the times the boost spikes past your target. Also, a race car will have more engine management and monitoring systems in place to help detect a problem so you can limp the car to pit row with your foot and not need the ECU to do it for you.

Hope that makes sense.

The long short of it is, unless you're running a gigantic turbo and pressure over, say 24 psi, The Hybrid system is ideal. Above that and you probably know most of this anyway or have a tuner who will help you figure out the best method of controlling boost.
BrandonDrums is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2011, 04:02 PM   #532
Phatron
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 36033
Join Date: Apr 2003
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Tuning Lab
Vehicle:
CEO PhatBottiTuning
2006 STi GTX3582 + Meth

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandonDrums View Post
Above that and you probably know most of this anyway or have a tuner who will help you figure out the best method of controlling boost.
<------

i am a tuner.

My comment was because of ride's comment....saying that the car feels unresponsive when setting it with wgdc at 100% everywhere....which is "mbc mode"....therefore my comment "so mbc's make the car unresponsive" was basically saying well if you think the hybrid setup in mbc mode is unresponsive, then you must also think a mbc is unresponsive.....
Phatron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2011, 04:16 PM   #533
BrandonDrums
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 118630
Join Date: Jun 2006
Chapter/Region: South East
Vehicle:
2005 Wrx wagon
Red

Default

Humm, I wrote that whole thing and didn't realize I was chiming in on a argument.

Just my thoughts, not limiting partial throttle full boost in a race application isn't as big of a deal because the throttle plate does a pretty good job of not allowing all the air into the engine at partial throttle so you can still modulate power just as easy. Plus changing the throttle also means changing the amount of exhaust coming out of the engine and spooling the turbo so boost actually modulates with the restriction of the throttle and the changes in exhaust coming out.

I guess a good way to think about it is like a N/A car. The same pressure exists 100% outside of the throttle which modulates how much of that air gets in. If the Earth's atmosphere somehow increased to match the density of a turbo at max boost, a NA STI engine would make the same HP as a turbo on regular earth and not have any issues with throttle modulation during launch or otherwise just because the pressure stays a constant outside of the manifold.

However, a turbo makes heat when in use, especcially when it's seeing higher restriction against it's compressor. It's when you're cruising around at low RPM and highish load where you want to limit partial throttle boost because of that extra heat. When you're driving for speed, you pretty much don't see that situation and boost spikes at max or near full throttle are more of a challenge if you don't have some safety tuned into your timing and fueling mix.

Just my .02 Sorry guys.
BrandonDrums is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2011, 04:19 PM   #534
BrandonDrums
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 118630
Join Date: Jun 2006
Chapter/Region: South East
Vehicle:
2005 Wrx wagon
Red

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
<------

i am a tuner.

My comment was because of ride's comment....saying that the car feels unresponsive when setting it with wgdc at 100% everywhere....which is "mbc mode"....therefore my comment "so mbc's make the car unresponsive" was basically saying well if you think the hybrid setup in mbc mode is unresponsive, then you must also think a mbc is unresponsive.....
haha, yeah. I actually thought it was our other buddy who was asking questions earlier who wrote that hence my long ass response. I know you know all that stuff lol.
BrandonDrums is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-22-2011, 04:22 PM   #535
Phatron
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 36033
Join Date: Apr 2003
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Tuning Lab
Vehicle:
CEO PhatBottiTuning
2006 STi GTX3582 + Meth

Default

It wasnt an arguement.....just typical Ken having to project himself as the smartest guy in the room at all times
Phatron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2011, 06:48 PM   #536
mistagreenthumb
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 240788
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Toronto
Vehicle:
2004 VF39'd WRX
PSM

Default

Hey guys, thanks again for all your help. Unfortunately, I just opened up AccessTuner race, tried to import the map I'm currently running on my car, and found out you can't load pro tune maps, only the maps off Cobb's website. I guess I'm gonna be heading to my tuner for this stuff.
mistagreenthumb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2011, 06:56 PM   #537
Phatron
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 36033
Join Date: Apr 2003
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Tuning Lab
Vehicle:
CEO PhatBottiTuning
2006 STi GTX3582 + Meth

Default

Correct, once you are protuned...the map is locked.
Phatron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-24-2011, 06:53 AM   #538
ride5000
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 32792
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: lincoln, ri
Vehicle:
2003 GGA MBP
12.9 / 105+

Default

ron, if you do not see the benefit over control of the car via throttle-dependent boost levels, then you are myopic.

to make claims that it doesn't matter, while promoting yourself as a professional/commercial tuner on top of that?

first, the claim is wrong, and second, it's lazy tuning.

that's not personal, it's a matter of fact.
ride5000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2011, 12:49 PM   #539
PhatBotti Tuning TKR
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 239659
Join Date: Feb 2010
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Tri-State / California
Vehicle:
STI Mikey & Phatron
Tuning Da Subies

Default

edited....im not gonna get in a pissing match.

There are just different ways of looking at this setup.

1 - I look at it from a MBC pov. Tune it with the mbc, retain the safety features of the ebcs.

2 - You look at it from a EBCS pov. Tune it with the ebcs, get the overboost protection of the MBC.

Utilizing the system as a mbc and tuning it as a mbc isnt wrong or right...its merely one way of utilizing it.

Last edited by PhatBotti Tuning TKR; 09-25-2011 at 02:02 PM.
PhatBotti Tuning TKR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-25-2011, 02:36 PM   #540
NSFW
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 140444
Join Date: Feb 2007
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Near Seattle, WA
Vehicle:
05 Stage Free LGT
ATP 3076, 6MT, AVO FMIC

Default

I look at it as tuning with an MBC, but without PTFB, and with the safety features of the EBCS.



(I went with 80% in the right column because it works the same as 100%.)

I've tried tuning it conventionally with the MBC just for overboost protection, but I got annoyed by the tradeoffs between setting boost targets to match 3rd gear vs setting them to match 4th gear, so I went back to setting it up to work like an MBC minus PTFB. My MBC is running the show at WOT, but at part-throttle the BCS opens up to fix PTFB.

Last edited by NSFW; 09-25-2011 at 02:36 PM. Reason: fixed image link
NSFW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2011, 08:27 AM   #541
ride5000
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 32792
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: lincoln, ri
Vehicle:
2003 GGA MBP
12.9 / 105+

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhatBotti Tuning TKR View Post
edited....im not gonna get in a pissing match.

There are just different ways of looking at this setup.

1 - I look at it from a MBC pov. Tune it with the mbc, retain the safety features of the ebcs.

2 - You look at it from a EBCS pov. Tune it with the ebcs, get the overboost protection of the MBC.

Utilizing the system as a mbc and tuning it as a mbc isnt wrong or right...its merely one way of utilizing it.
never said it was wrong, or that it wouldn't work...

i said it was lazy.

if i was buying an ecu map that had what amounts to no boost tuning, you can be damned sure i'd want a discount.
ride5000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2011, 08:37 AM   #542
ride5000
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 32792
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: lincoln, ri
Vehicle:
2003 GGA MBP
12.9 / 105+

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NSFW View Post
I've tried tuning it conventionally with the MBC just for overboost protection, but I got annoyed by the tradeoffs between setting boost targets to match 3rd gear vs setting them to match 4th gear, so I went back to setting it up to work like an MBC minus PTFB. My MBC is running the show at WOT, but at part-throttle the BCS opens up to fix PTFB.
agreed. having part throttle boost "targets" as in specific pressures at specific TPS is not the point.

having SOME target between wastegate and mbc spring pressure, and ramping that across TPS above 50 or so %, will improve driveability by virtue of tighter correlation between throttle input and torque output.

pretty much what i said seven years ago:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000 View Post
... it was strange to have the turbo come on when IT wanted to, rather than when *I* wanted it to.

i guess my big complaint was in power modulation, which i found much more difficult with just the MBC.
ride5000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2011, 11:19 AM   #543
Phatron
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 36033
Join Date: Apr 2003
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Tuning Lab
Vehicle:
CEO PhatBottiTuning
2006 STi GTX3582 + Meth

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000 View Post
never said it was wrong, or that it wouldn't work...

i said it was lazy.

if i was buying an ecu map that had what amounts to no boost tuning, you can be damned sure i'd want a discount.
You're missing my whole point though.

There is no difference in the amount of "boost tuning" compared to a mbc only car. So every tuner thats ever used a mbc is lazy? That was my point.

I like hallmans. I dont look at is as lazy. I look at it as time management by tuning the car way faster.

I am only using the ebcs to retain wgdc cuts. I dont use this setup to tune the boost with the ebcs. Cause like i said, if you're gonna tune the boost with the ebcs then the MBC just isnt necessary.
Phatron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2011, 11:12 PM   #544
07wrx84
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 252195
Join Date: Jul 2010
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Da-Boonies... 801
Vehicle:
07 WFC #900
@ 451awhp-404awtq

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LIQUIDSK8S View Post
I was looking to do the hybrid setup, but I recently discussed it with a few tuners who are adamant that a 3-port is better than a hybrid setup (smoother power/better boost control etc)
I dont believe that
07wrx84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2011, 11:41 PM   #545
BrandonDrums
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 118630
Join Date: Jun 2006
Chapter/Region: South East
Vehicle:
2005 Wrx wagon
Red

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
You're missing my whole point though.

There is no difference in the amount of "boost tuning" compared to a mbc only car. So every tuner thats ever used a mbc is lazy? That was my point.

I like hallmans. I dont look at is as lazy. I look at it as time management by tuning the car way faster.

I am only using the ebcs to retain wgdc cuts. I dont use this setup to tune the boost with the ebcs. Cause like i said, if you're gonna tune the boost with the ebcs then the MBC just isnt necessary.
I agree with this, if you use MBC only, you allow the turbo to do it's thing and cap it then you have to reverse-engineer the rest of the tune to match the turbo's spool and flow characteristics.

There's 2 overall trains of thought here, both are lagit and both require some extra effort in one area of a tune vs. another.

1: You can spend more time tuning boost to make it more predictable and less time adjusting fueling and timing and watching the MAF sensor to achieve a tune.

OR

2: You can spend less to no time tuning boost, let the turbo do it's thing, watch the MAF and adjust fuel and timing to compensate for the turbo's natural spool and flow characteristics.

I will say, my opinion is that tuning a bigger turbo justifies method 2, a smaller turbo justifies method 1 as the smaller turbo is much more sensitive to differences in load and you'll want to scale the partial throttle values to make the turbo more predictable.

Even if I get a big turbo though, I'll stick to method 1. That's just me though.
BrandonDrums is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2011, 01:03 PM   #546
ride5000
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 32792
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: lincoln, ri
Vehicle:
2003 GGA MBP
12.9 / 105+

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
You're missing my whole point though.

There is no difference in the amount of "boost tuning" compared to a mbc only car. So every tuner thats ever used a mbc is lazy? That was my point.

I like hallmans. I dont look at is as lazy. I look at it as time management by tuning the car way faster.
if, as you state, you spend exactly the same amount of time tuning and tweaking a map, regardless of whether or not a boost map is used, then that's great--and fair. an assumption is made that this time is well spent and will actually make the REST of the tune better (smoother, safer, more powerful) in some way. whether or not this is the case is up to your customers to decide.

i am not in the business of selling tunes, and i never have been, so i have nothing to defend.

Quote:
I am only using the ebcs to retain wgdc cuts. I dont use this setup to tune the boost with the ebcs. Cause like i said, if you're gonna tune the boost with the ebcs then the MBC just isnt necessary.
isn't necessary? according to whom? you?

how many EBCS-only maps have you tuned? how many of those have you tuned for profit? how many have had to have long term adjustments in terms of WOT boost targets? across all gears/loads/temps? how many have had the same response as an MBC-only car in terms of threshold? in terms of overshoot and stability?

conversely, how many of your tunes have knocked so much that they've fallen back to the high-det map, and actually USED the safeguard of having the EBCS in circuit to limit boost to wastegate?

reading your posts, one would think that it takes hours and hours to set the boost control parameters to effect a ramp in WGDC. it takes a few minutes, since all you're trying to do is soften the transition. it's not rocket science, nor is it exact.

if you don't see the pointlessness of having a turbo fully spooled up and pushing high volumes of charge air at high pressure against a 50% (or 40%, or 30%, or 20%) closed throttle plate, then i don't know what to tell you.

the fact that this is not part of a cut-n-paste boilerplate map workflow by this point is mindboggling.

but hey, keep on keepin' on.
ride5000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2011, 01:15 PM   #547
BrandonDrums
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 118630
Join Date: Jun 2006
Chapter/Region: South East
Vehicle:
2005 Wrx wagon
Red

Default

When can we start blaming this disagreement on Obama? I'm ready for a change of subject.

BrandonDrums is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2011, 02:37 PM   #548
MRF582
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 48219
Join Date: Nov 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Vehicle:
. Always drive
the race line .

Default

Yeah, it's really quite annoying to drive with a pure MBC setup when exiting corners because sometimes you have to lift halfway during exit because the turbo spooled too high and made you understeer because the front wheels couldn't put the power down. It feels pretty stupid. I like having more control over the engine output with my right foot so I map boost to be progressively increasing.

But, I tune my WGDC tables pretty lazily too. I just figure out what the WGDC should be at WOT then set my leftmost column to 0% at all RPMs (rows) and just horizontally interpolate in EcuFlash. And done. It's quite a lazy way and it works really well.
MRF582 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2011, 02:43 PM   #549
BrandonDrums
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 118630
Join Date: Jun 2006
Chapter/Region: South East
Vehicle:
2005 Wrx wagon
Red

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MRF582 View Post
Yeah, it's really quite annoying to drive with a pure MBC setup when exiting corners because sometimes you have to lift halfway during exit because the turbo spooled too high and made you understeer because the front wheels couldn't put the power down. It feels pretty stupid. I like having more control over the engine output with my right foot so I map boost to be progressively increasing.

But, I tune my WGDC tables pretty lazily too. I just figure out what the WGDC should be at WOT then set my leftmost column to 0% at all RPMs (rows) and just horizontally interpolate in EcuFlash. And done. It's quite a lazy way and it works really well.
Not too shabby! I might try that although, my WGA is only 9 psi so I'll run 0% where my target is 9 psi and below.

That's a pretty solid technique, I wish romraider had interpolate. I hate using ECU Flash for modifying maps except for that one feature.
BrandonDrums is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2011, 10:48 AM   #550
mistagreenthumb
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 240788
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Toronto
Vehicle:
2004 VF39'd WRX
PSM

Default

Hey guys, I have a date booked to head over to my tuner in a few weeks.

I know I won't see the full potential until I'm tuned for it, but would it be bad for my motor if I stuck the MBC on before I get tuned? I'm already tuned for a 3 port, so I don't really see how it could be bad.... but better safe than sorry, so I figured I'd ask.
mistagreenthumb is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What kind of boost control solenoid/boost controller is this? roninsoldier83 Factory 2.5L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.5L Turbo) 3 10-01-2007 10:24 PM
If the pill is your primary method of birth control, learn from my mistake George71 Off-Topic 59 03-15-2005 12:00 PM
mbc/ebc and peak boost in lower gears? chrisfranklin Factory 2.5L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.5L Turbo) 2 08-02-2004 09:29 PM
Joe P. MBC XZ Turbo Manual Boost Controller (ebay no reserve) lstepnio Private 'For Sale' Classifieds 0 03-22-2004 06:43 PM
Need Help: An analysis of boost control methods smiles Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.0L Turbo) 16 01-07-2002 03:12 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:13 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2015 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2015, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.