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Old 11-29-2012, 12:57 PM   #676
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000 View Post
if that is indeed the case, then you're throwing substantial power/efficiency away due to excessive pre compressor airflow restriction, which is the absolute worst place to have pressure drop.
I suspect that AOS performance has more to do with greater-than-atmospheric pressure in the case than with less-than-atmospheric pressure in the turbo inlet.
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Old 11-29-2012, 01:13 PM   #677
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I have a synapse bpv that requires a "boost only" source that's currently 't'd' into the vacuum line that goes to the mbc/compressor right now. Could I use the extra port on the 3-port ebcs to feed the synapse the required "boost only" vacuum?
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Old 11-29-2012, 02:57 PM   #678
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Originally Posted by yamahaSHO View Post
And here I always thought the worst place to have vacuum while at WOT was on the other side of the turbo. Unless you run the turbo without an intake, or a ridiculously large diameter intake, it's just a fact of life. Current inlets have support wire running through them due to the lack of pressure on the pre-compressor side.

Anyway, about boost control.
yes, we were talking about boost control, and why there may be a difference (as you suggest) on rerouting back to precompressor inlet pipe vs. capped off vs. vta.

you promoted the hypothesis that the pressure drop precompressor was of such a magnitude that it introduced an offset to the ball and spring MBC.

i asked if you could quantify that pressure drop. you said "quite a bit."

my point is that if you indeed have "quite a bit" of pressure drop then you are already down tens of hp.

inlets with steel support wires are bandaids covering up the real issue.

perhaps the magnitude of pressure drop isn't as severe as you think?
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:17 PM   #679
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yes, we were talking about boost control, and why there may be a difference (as you suggest) on rerouting back to precompressor inlet pipe vs. capped off vs. vta.
That's not quite how you put it.


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Originally Posted by ride5000 View Post
you promoted the hypothesis that the pressure drop precompressor was of such a magnitude that it introduced an offset to the ball and spring MBC.
Venting the 3rd port to atmosphere is enough to effect the pressure seen at the ball and spring. The pressure on the pre-compressor side of the turbo is less than atmospheric, so it WILL have a greater effect. You can see a small boost leak on the post compressor tract via logging, why would you think that it wouldn't have an effect on something that is solely relying on pressure to open?

The whole idea of the hybrid is taking the path of least resistance. When running the 3rd port VTA or to the inlet, the path of least resistance will not be pushing up on that ball and spring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000 View Post
i asked if you could quantify that pressure drop. you said "quite a bit."
You didn't expect me to hook a vacuum gauge up to it, did you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000 View Post
my point is that if you indeed have "quite a bit" of pressure drop then you are already down tens of hp.
I understand what you're saying, but you're making this seem much larger than it is. Could I make more power going SD and completely opening the compressor to the atmosphere, absolutely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000 View Post
inlets with steel support wires are bandaids covering up the real issue.
Yes, the fact that I can't put a 6" diameter pipe on my 2.4" turbo inlet...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000 View Post
perhaps the magnitude of pressure drop isn't as severe as you think?
Pressure on the pre-compressor side of the pipe will be lower than atmospheric. Vent your boost away from the MBC, it will have less pressure pushing up on the ball and spring. Put the 3rd port on the inlet where there is less pressure than atmosphere, it'll have a greater effect. Quite simple... Either way, it's venting air away from the MBC.

It sounds like some are hooking up an MBC and tuning the EBCS and not letting the MBC do what it is supposed to do.
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:38 PM   #680
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Originally Posted by yamahaSHO View Post
Pressure on the pre-compressor side of the pipe will be lower than atmospheric. Vent your boost away from the MBC, it will have less pressure pushing up on the ball and spring. Put the 3rd port on the inlet where there is less pressure than atmosphere, it'll have a greater effect. Quite simple... Either way, it's venting air away from the MBC.

It sounds like some are hooking up an MBC and tuning the EBCS and not letting the MBC do what it is supposed to do.
IMO, your theory is sound. But in my experience, the magnitude of the effects was insignificant. I would run 95% WGDC at anything over 80% TPS and set the boost target to north of what the MAP sensor could read. The ECU was always trying to reach this unreachable target and kept the WGDC maxed out. Then I was able to set my max boost using the MBC. I don't know what else to say. Empirical results don't lie. There is obviously something real that is happening that doesn't quite line up with the theory. And usually when that happens, it's because the theory is wrong or not accounting for an unknown unknown.
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:47 PM   #681
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^ that's exactly how mine was setup too.

I was drefinately not using the wgdc to tune the boost. It was static @ 95% and the mbc was used to turn the boost up/down.

I've tuned hundreds of cars with the hybrid setup and the mbc was controlling boost on all of them.

While I agree that it can effect how much you need to tighten the mbc....it doesnt automatically mean you're going to boost spike. If you tune a setup with the ebcs hooked to the intake, tune it to 32psi, then capped the intake port and did a pull with the mbc in the same position, then yes you would probably overboost a little. But when you are tuning the setup with the ebcs port hooked to teh intake....and you get to 32psi....its not going to magically spike afterward.

If someone has the setup on their car they can walk out side and test this over 3 pulls (hooked to intake, venting to atm, plugged).....i'd do it but i dont have my car right now.

Last edited by Phatron; 11-29-2012 at 05:12 PM.
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Old 11-29-2012, 06:09 PM   #682
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^ that's exactly how mine was setup too.

I was drefinately not using the wgdc to tune the boost. It was static @ 95% and the mbc was used to turn the boost up/down.

I've tuned hundreds of cars with the hybrid setup and the mbc was controlling boost on all of them.
I too have done quite a few cars and after my initial testing of just about every way you can think to hook this up, capping it was easier and predictable. I recommend this setup to pretty much everyone as it saves time. Set my boost via using the MBC, find the curve, match it with about +.5 PSI on the 100% throttle row (increase max post comp to 100), then use the EBCS to fix any PTFB issues that may arise.


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Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
While I agree that it can effect how much you need to tighten the mbc....it doesnt automatically mean you're going to boost spike. If you tune a setup with the ebcs hooked to the intake, tune it to 32psi, then capped the intake port and did a pull with the mbc in the same position, then yes you would probably overboost a little. But when you are tuning the setup with the ebcs port hooked to teh intake....and you get to 32psi....its not going to magically spike afterward.
Actually, if you set your boost with the MBC with the 3rd port VTA/inlet, then capped it, it would likely not hit target boost because now you're forcing all that lost boost through the MBC now. At that point, the MBC will have full control of maximum boost and the EBCS will have full control at anything but WOT to control spring pressure up to MBC setting.

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Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
If someone has the setup on their car they can walk out side and test this over 3 pulls (hooked to intake, venting to atm, plugged).....i'd do it but i dont have my car right now.


Ultimately, if you're venting/plumbing into the inlet, you're likely using a combination of the MBC and smaller passages and hoses of the EBCS to control boost. IMHO, it's not taking full advantage of what the "hybrid" setup is all about.

I run my boost target at 100% about .5 PSI higher than what I have it set at. If for some reason the MBC failed/got stuck, the EBCS would see the overboost issue and bring it down. Having the boost table closer to my desired boost target via the MBC allows for quick action.

On the flip side, If for some reason the EBCS failed in the 100% WGDC opening/closing or got plugged up, the MBC would have ultimate boost cap control, but it would not be able to do that if it were venting that 3rd port or plumbed back into the intake.

Give Grimmspeed's diagram a try. I bet you like it better.
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Old 11-29-2012, 06:41 PM   #683
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^ i've already tried it. I've had my car setup all 3 ways.....as I already stated. And I did not notice any glaring differences.....only some very minor changes in afr when venting to atm.

My progression went like this.....had it hooked to inlet......during pressure tests i was leaking out of the hose at the turbo inlet so i decided to cap the turbo inlet. When i did this i basically forgot to plug the ebcs port.....so it was running like that for a while.....then one day i noticed my ebcs wasnt capped...so i capped it. never noticed any difference in boost control.
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Old 11-29-2012, 06:45 PM   #684
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Did you ever command 100% (and attain) WGDC at WOT with it vented or plumbed back in?
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:11 PM   #685
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You're placing way too much emphasis on the 100% number. Its not a door that is simply open 100%, or 95% of the way.....it operates on a frequency....much like a fuel injector at 100% is not just open spraying....its operating on a pulse width still.

again, go out to your car and change the wgdc to 95% and do a log.....plot it up vs the wgdc at 100% and post it up.

theres no reason to keep talking theories when its simple to just post data.

and if the boost is a little less on the 95%....and you choose to leave it that way...a small turn of the mbc will put it back.

The reason i run them at 95% is because my used to work with similar products and said the lifespan is reduced when they're at 100% all teh time.
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:21 PM   #686
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You're placing way too much emphasis on the 100% number. Its not a door that is simply open 100%, or 95% of the way.....it operates on a frequency....much like a fuel injector at 100% is not just open spraying....its operating on a pulse width still.
I'm putting the correct amount of emphasis on that number. You want the MBC to have FULL control at WOT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
again, go out to your car and change the wgdc to 95% and do a log.....plot it up vs the wgdc at 100% and post it up.
Again, I've done this. With it capped, it has ONLY two places to go. Anything less than 100% leaves a window for it to pass more freely under the MBC under what the MBC would crack at.

My car is already under a cover in the garage for the winter. I also do not desire to run the 3rd port to the inlet as I know what it will do. It will take my dual-built in safety out of the loop. As long as a line does not get worn through or pop off, either can fail and I'll be safe at 16 PSI or 25 PSI.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
theres no reason to keep talking theories when its simple to just post data.

and if the boost is a little less on the 95%....and you choose to leave it that way...a small turn of the mbc will put it back.
IMHO, the Grimmspeed diagram is the more appropriate way. It's an added net of safety (described below), it's simple, and removes one extra of the many hoses you'll already have run through there.

I am confused... In post #652, you say you ran your setup like post #1, however, it was run with a capped port/inlet and WGDC was set to 100%.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
The reason i run them at 95% is because my used to work with similar products and said the lifespan is reduced when they're at 100% all teh time.
Unless it's a track car, you won't be using the 100% all the time (and at that point, I'd just use an MBC). And if it does fail, Grimmspeed's diagram will either have it stuck open at the WG spring level, or stuck closed allowing the MBC to take over. If it sticks closed with the 3rd port being put back into the inlet, the MBC (now without help of the EBCS) will be seeing needed pressure be sucked into the inlet (overboost with no other forum of control - essentially a leak in the line).


In the end, I'll keep running it on customers cars this way as it has worked extremely well. They also like the added safety it provides on top of great boost control and I know exactly what it will do from the get-go.
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:34 PM   #687
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why do you think that you lose the safety factors with the line run to the intake? the mbc still works as a hard cap and the wgdc still can cut the boost.

Yes it is confusing how i ran my car....because i have a WRX and an STI....and i've run it all the different ways.
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:43 PM   #688
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why do you think that you lose the safety factors with the line run to the intake? the mbc still works as a hard cap and the wgdc still can cut the boost.
Easy... The way you are talking about using it, the MBC is being aided by the EBCS (95% is still passing pressure to the WG). If the EBCS were to fail in a manner that vented back into the inlet, the MBC would no longer be aided with pressure coming from the EBCS to the WG. Then you're stuck running a bleed style setup with a manual boost controller...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
Yes it is confusing how i ran my car....because i have a WRX and an STI....and i've run it all the different ways.
Luckily, the two cars boost control function is virtually the same .
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Old 11-30-2012, 12:03 AM   #689
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so this is what you're saying?

EBCS to inlet - doesnt work
EBCS to atm - doesnt work

EBCS plugged - only way that works
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Old 11-30-2012, 12:12 AM   #690
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I think plugged is more appropriate or ideal and have explained why a few times. You can get boost set one way or another, but I don't think your route is taking full advantage on why we spend additional money on two boost controllers and run them in parallel.

I cannot imagine why anyone would want to run it to atmosphere. Nothing I hate more than trying to tune a car with boost leaks.

Last edited by yamahaSHO; 12-05-2012 at 09:38 AM.
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Old 12-01-2012, 12:18 AM   #691
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I have a synapse bpv that requires a "boost only" source that's currently 't'd' into the vacuum line that goes to the mbc/compressor right now. Could I use the extra port on the 3-port ebcs to feed the synapse the required "boost only" vacuum?
bump for some help
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Old 01-16-2013, 12:34 PM   #692
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Has anyone run this setup with the Tactrix 3-Port Boost Control Solenoid? The GM Solenoid worked great for me on my last setup but was a bit noisy at times and soldered wires didn't quite look factory under the hood. Thinking it may be worth the extra bucks this time for the factory harness and reduced noise.
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Old 01-16-2013, 12:52 PM   #693
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Has anyone run this setup with the Tactrix 3-Port Boost Control Solenoid? The GM Solenoid worked great for me on my last setup but was a bit noisy at times and soldered wires didn't quite look factory under the hood. Thinking it may be worth the extra bucks this time for the factory harness and reduced noise.
I have not but I did have success getting the GM solenoid to quiet down by modifying the stock ECBS mount which has rubber bushings on it to fit the GM.

You can get some foam weather stripping or layer a few strips of 3M double sided foam tape and stick the flat side of the solenoid to the stock mounting bracket thingy. Don't use the screw holes on the GM solenoid's metal flange bracket. Use twist ties and foam weatherstripping or foam double sided tape to stick it to the removable mount and then bolt that to the stock location on that black bracket for a stock look. I used twist ties on the vaccum hoses and electrical wires to suspend the solenoid myself for a while.

IMO, it's not worth buying a new ECBS. The GM unit is as good as anything and tried and true reliable but does take some creativity to isolate it so the vibrations aren't transferred into the car.
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Old 03-13-2013, 03:17 PM   #694
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So I read this whole thread... TWICE ... we never got a final diagram... I want to get rid of the flutter and utilize the hybrid failsafe.

1. Do I cap port 1 or not? LoL (Where the hell did capping port 3 come from lol?)
2. My car is tuned with 3 port EBCS and Tial EWG, Can I just hook up the MBC and set the boost and not retune?
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Old 03-13-2013, 04:44 PM   #695
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Originally Posted by cynet2k View Post
So I read this whole thread... TWICE ... we never got a final diagram... I want to get rid of the flutter and utilize the hybrid failsafe.

1. Do I cap port 1 or not? LoL (Where the hell did capping port 3 come from lol?)
2. My car is tuned with 3 port EBCS and Tial EWG, Can I just hook up the MBC and set the boost and not retune?
You'll need to retune, although it's super easy after going hybrid. Easier than tuning out your flutter actually.

Here are some of the easier to read diagrams for you. I know you have an EWG setup, it's still a WG though, just move the line to the WG in these diagrams to your location 'imagically'




I've run the setup with the 3rd (or the vent port) capped and uncapped. I prefer the uncapped method personally because it, for me did allow the MBC to only change boost levels when the ECBS was in a high duty cycle and the rest of the time the EBCS was controlling boost. With the extra port capped, I feel like the EBC had a hard time blocking any boost and the performance dropped quite a bit.

Here's what my boost control tables looked like after dialing this in. I've certainly made a lot of adjustments since then but it gives you a starting point.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...&postcount=498

Last edited by BrandonDrums; 03-13-2013 at 05:51 PM.
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Old 03-13-2013, 06:19 PM   #696
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Originally Posted by cynet2k View Post
So I read this whole thread... TWICE ... we never got a final diagram... I want to get rid of the flutter and utilize the hybrid failsafe.

1. Do I cap port 1 or not? LoL (Where the hell did capping port 3 come from lol?)
2. My car is tuned with 3 port EBCS and Tial EWG, Can I just hook up the MBC and set the boost and not retune?


This is how I run all customer cars:



Set WOT to 100%, control WOT boost with the MBC; use the EBCS to control part throttle boost.

You will likely need to re-tune, however, the MBC will still cap max boost.
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Old 04-01-2013, 12:20 PM   #697
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Is anything similar possible using side port AND top port of an EWG?
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Old 04-02-2013, 12:49 PM   #698
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Is anything similar possible using side port AND top port of an EWG?
Ok saw some attempts at it on page 25 but didn't look like they actually hooked it up. Guess I'll have to figure it out myself, thanks for nothing Google...
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Old 04-02-2013, 02:25 PM   #699
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Ok saw some attempts at it on page 25 but didn't look like they actually hooked it up. Guess I'll have to figure it out myself, thanks for nothing Google...
Have you built a time machine? Page 25? I'm only on page 14.

TEACH ME YOUR WAYS, FUTURE MAN!
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Old 04-02-2013, 02:35 PM   #700
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Have you built a time machine? Page 25? I'm only on page 14.

TEACH ME YOUR WAYS, FUTURE MAN!
Heh, I actually started from the end.
You see any viable dual-port MBC/EBCS setups?
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