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Old 10-17-2013, 01:57 AM   #751
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Well, they are both kinda right. If you have a Vf
2L ptfb isn't really an issue.

A mbc is easier to "tune" but leaves boost adjustments in the hands of the end user for changes in temp. And a mbc also loses the boost drop if you happen to get into limp mode.

An ebcs can utilize the iat temp comps for cold/hot temps and also combat ptfb. And it keeps the boost drop in limp mode.

A hybrid setup can do all of it. '
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Old 10-17-2013, 02:19 AM   #752
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Well, they are both kinda right. If you have a Vf 2L ptfb isn't really an issue. A mbc is easier to "tune" but leaves boost adjustments in the hands of the end user for changes in temp. And a mbc also loses the boost drop if you happen to get into limp mode. An ebcs can utilize the iat temp comps for cold/hot temps and also combat ptfb. And it keeps the boost drop in limp mode. A hybrid setup can do all of it. '
No disrespect but you didn't actually answer my questions haha. I know the benefits of both, that's why I want to run both...at the same time.

I'm looking for the best way to describe how it needs to be tuned. Both tuners admit they've never had good results with the hybrid so this worries me...seems crazy that all these home brew users are having great success and reputable tuners can't be bothered with this...

It's not like it's harder to tune than just a 3-port right???
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Old 10-17-2013, 02:24 AM   #753
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No it's not harder than a 3port.

Set the mbc where u want peak boost, then do partial throttle pulls to set the wgdc for partial throttle boost. That is if you want to decrease the partial throttle boost. Which was the point of one of the tuners, you really have no reason to want to decrease the partial throttle boost on a 2L Vf unless you want to try and get better gas mileage by limiting the boost.

If u can tune an ebcs, u can tune the hybrid setup. It's basically exactly the same as tuning an ebcs except now u have a mechanical cap for peak boost.

Last edited by Phatron; 10-17-2013 at 02:35 AM.
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Old 10-17-2013, 02:40 AM   #754
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Well, you bring up a good point that I failed to mention, I do want to be able to spend a little more time in closed loop for better gas mileage and lower emissions, less heat etc.

Additionally, since spinning rod bearings on my EJ205 running just a tuned MBC on the TD04, I'm wary of just an MBC now (and perhaps this is irrational but it was super easy to part throttle boost, even in the 2L). That said, I still think it's nice to be able to turn the boost down if I want and when I'm all in on the throttle, I'll take the spool benefits of the MBC.

I could be talking out my ass but the V9 JDM EJ207 with aggressive cam angle, big port heads, AVCS and a twin scroll turbo isn't an EJ205...I think this engine is going to spool and spool fast. Stock ROM boost targets are nearly 20psi and it runs tons of timing advance. I just don't know for sure since I haven't exceeded 8psi or 3500 RPM since I have the MBC backed off until I get tuned. Off boost torque is a completely different animal though. Pretty sure even on wastegate pressure I'll put down as much or more as my tuned EJ205 @ 16psi (211 hp / 221 tq on low reading dyno).
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Old 10-17-2013, 03:04 AM   #755
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The whole concept is just kinda weird in itself. Everybody always wants the fastest spool, but yet wants to utilize this setup to detune the partial throttle boost.

If you want to throw another wrench in the equation go checkout perrins dual ebcs setup.
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Old 10-17-2013, 07:40 AM   #756
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you really have no reason to want to decrease the partial throttle boost on a 2L Vf unless you want to try and get better gas mileage by limiting the boost.
you keep spouting this, and you're still wrong.
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Old 10-17-2013, 11:36 AM   #757
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I like a progressive power delivery that correlates to how far I press down the throttle pedal...
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Old 10-17-2013, 03:55 PM   #758
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You're 100% correct, if iirc it's down around 75% throttle on a 2L vf. It's just not as pronounced of an issue as a 2.5L tdo4 car. And most people don't complain and want their boost turned down at 75% throttle. But it's really up to each individual and how they want the car to feel at certain throttle increments.

I just think of ptfb as how it effects daily driving. Like driving up a hill on the freeway. On a td04 or Vf 2.5L the car is gonna be boosting with very little throttle depression and it makes the gas mileage suck. I just assumed that "partial" throttle meant 50% or below. When most people are above 50% their intention is to have power. But like I said its all in each persons personal preference.

Last edited by Phatron; 10-17-2013 at 04:08 PM.
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Old 10-17-2013, 05:25 PM   #759
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My 2 cents.

I think it's probably worse to try and push the tuner to do something they don't want to do. If the EBCS tuner guy is good, I'd just have him tune your car and be done with it. If later you want to mess around and switch to hybrid (or get someone to help you mess around), you can basically leave most of the map the same and just set it for 100% WGDC at full throttle to let the MBC take over (and do things like eliminate the CL to OL delay, etc...I'll let smarter guys than me comment on details).

I think you'll get frustrated pushing the tuner and he'll get frustrated too. The other option is to drive a further distance (or do an e tune) and find someone who is good and happy to tune a hybrid setup.
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Old 10-17-2013, 06:21 PM   #760
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My 2 cents.

I think it's probably worse to try and push the tuner to do something they don't want to do. If the EBCS tuner guy is good, I'd just have him tune your car and be done with it. If later you want to mess around and switch to hybrid (or get someone to help you mess around), you can basically leave most of the map the same and just set it for 100% WGDC at full throttle to let the MBC take over (and do things like eliminate the CL to OL delay, etc...I'll let smarter guys than me comment on details).

I think you'll get frustrated pushing the tuner and he'll get frustrated too. The other option is to drive a further distance (or do an e tune) and find someone who is good and happy to tune a hybrid setup.
Appreciate the input. It just doesn't make any sense to me that established tuners would be against the hybrid boost strategy when its scientifically "better" than either option alone (how much may be debatable) and apparently really no harder to tune. Maybe it's the increased points of failure risks although the system adds redundancy also which makes up for it.

I'm just shocked that none of them can come up with what seems to be a valid argument against it other than, "When we've tried it in the past, it just didn't work well." This leads me to believe there is a high factor of people setting this up wrong which accounts for the poor performance these tuners see. I'm confident I'll set it up well as far as installation so the rest is on the tuner...

Secondly, I already have an MBC and I purchased a 3-port. I guess I could sell the MBC but I figure I might as well set up what I want now.

I think CL to OL delay is one of the first things tuners get rid of, MBC or not. As I understand it, having set parameters for when you transition to OL are good but the actual delay itself is emissions driven and unnecessary.

The tuning strategy points in the article below are some of what's confusing me, especially the parts about setting underboost Turbo Dynamics correction to 100% for 16-bit ECU's and setting boost targets slightly higher than the WGDC will allow for.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...bilizing-boost
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Old 10-18-2013, 09:06 AM   #761
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The whole concept is just kinda weird in itself. Everybody always wants the fastest spool, but yet wants to utilize this setup to detune the partial throttle boost.
how is that in any way "weird?"

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Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
You're 100% correct, if iirc it's down around 75% throttle on a 2L vf. It's just not as pronounced of an issue as a 2.5L tdo4 car. And most people don't complain and want their boost turned down at 75% throttle. But it's really up to each individual and how they want the car to feel at certain throttle increments.

I just think of ptfb as how it effects daily driving. Like driving up a hill on the freeway. On a td04 or Vf 2.5L the car is gonna be boosting with very little throttle depression and it makes the gas mileage suck. I just assumed that "partial" throttle meant 50% or below. When most people are above 50% their intention is to have power. But like I said its all in each persons personal preference.
i run stoich up to slightly higher MAP than wastegate pressure (on my car 12psi). there's just no reason not to as long as there is reasonable timing.

at 60% tps and up, regardless of load/rpm, minimum afr is set to 12.5:1 for best torque. as a result, unless i'm purposely "getting on it," the car is running stoich fueling.

without preventing ptfb this would not be the case, but it is certainly not the only reason to prevent ptfb.

every boost control system worth it's salt uses TPS as a primary determiner of wastegate position, since that is the ONLY input the driver has to inform the car of requested torque.

i simply cannot understand the rationale behind allowing the wastegate to be either completely uncontrolled (below mbc cracking point) or clamping to a fixed output (above cracking point) with nothing in between. i did that 10 years ago, and IMMEDIATELY took steps to remediate it, because it sucked.

the throttle should not be an on-off button--the amount of airmass passing through the throttle should be VERY predictable wrt throttle angle. with an mbc only setup, this is decidedly not the case, as the compressor output pressure can be anywhere between 0 and mbc cracking pressure, which is ALWAYS greater than 0 and wastegate pressure. that difference on my car is 27psi (mbc) - 12psi (wg) = 15psi. assuming a single throttle angle, that's a massive difference in maf. no thanks.
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Old 10-18-2013, 09:26 AM   #762
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Appreciate the input. It just doesn't make any sense to me that established tuners would be against the hybrid boost strategy when its scientifically "better" than either option alone (how much may be debatable) and apparently really no harder to tune. Maybe it's the increased points of failure risks although the system adds redundancy also which makes up for it.
let's take a minute to step back and look at "tuners."

10 years ago, there were probably around a dozen people on the board who tuned subarus. the reason why is because the tuning tools (ems hardware/software, dynos, widebands) were mega expensive and proprietary. therefore tuners had to be affiliated with a business with deep pockets to invest.

the overall depth of knowledge was shallower, of course--we just knew less about the intricacies of the systems--but knowledge of tuning was a lot more concentrated.

fast forward a decade and what do we have? people popping up left and right, calling themselves "tuners." the bar for entry is lower than it ever has been--and for people who don't know enough to DIY, this low bar seems ideal, as the increased competition and decreased overhead depresses the cost of getting a tune.

but who are these people offering tunes? it is easy to impress someone who doesn't know very much. the very short list of half a dozen or so people i would ever allow to tune my car is the same list it was 10 years ago. that should tell you something.

Quote:
Secondly, I already have an MBC and I purchased a 3-port. I guess I could sell the MBC but I figure I might as well set up what I want now.
install it in parallel. no reason not to. even if you leave it completely out of the loop during the tune, it is VERY HANDY to be able to DECREASE boost without any tools or electronics whatsoever. run out of gas with only 87 octane available? turn it down. trying to collect datalogs of medium load columns? turn it down.

Quote:
I think CL to OL delay is one of the first things tuners get rid of, MBC or not. As I understand it, having set parameters for when you transition to OL are good but the actual delay itself is emissions driven and unnecessary.
agreed. that's where a lot of blobeyes lost their pistons, after slapping on the mbc and turbobacks.
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Old 10-18-2013, 12:25 PM   #763
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What are your egts at redline running 12.5? Is that from a tail pipe wb or one in the dp?
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Old 10-18-2013, 02:25 PM   #764
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let's take a minute to step back and look at "tuners."
Agree, that's why I was careful to say "established tuners" as both tuners in question are affiliated with a brick and mortar shop, have 9+ years of tuning turbo Subarus and are charging me what I consider to be above average amount of money for their time...

But I know what you mean, I have a photography business that I started when buying a DSLR was also very expensive and have invested upwards of $20,000 in photo gear. Now that a DSLR can be had for ~$500, every stay at home mom in america is now a "photographer." :P

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install it in parallel. no reason not to. even if you leave it completely out of the loop during the tune, it is VERY HANDY to be able to DECREASE boost without any tools or electronics whatsoever. run out of gas with only 87 octane available? turn it down. trying to collect datalogs of medium load columns? turn it down.
Agree, this is my plan. Is there any measurable effect of the inherent extra vacuum line that is required to run a hybrid setup? I think it's been touched on before but it seems like when the EBC is completely closed off, there's got to be SOME negative effect of routing air through the lines to the closed EBC, while enough pressure then builds to route the majority of air to the path of least resistance (the MBC in this case). Can't imagine this would be very measurable but it's one excuse the MBC tuner has given me for why the MBC doesn't perform as well in this setup...

My plan is to mount the 3-Port where I want it, run the 2 hose lengths from the MBC to the 3-Port, making them as short as possible and then determine where in this line I want to cut and install the T-connection, then routing connection hoses to the compressor nipple and WGA. Has anyone played with installing the T-connection closer to the MBC or EBC? Is it preferable to install it at an equal distance between them?

At this point, regardless of tuner preference, I don't think I'm going to change my mind about this setup, I'm gonna do it anyway haha...
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Old 10-18-2013, 02:53 PM   #765
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keep in mind that with an interrupt topology you're basically sending a pressure signal. unlike a bleed based system, ie oem, absolute flow rates should be nearly zero. there is a prodigious supply of signal air coming from the compressor nipple.

in other words, don't sweat it.
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Old 10-18-2013, 08:05 PM   #766
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the cost of entry is still pretty damn high. my dyno payment is 3x my mortgage.
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Old 10-19-2013, 06:45 AM   #767
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How many etuners use dynos?
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Old 10-28-2013, 04:30 PM   #768
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Originally Posted by SubNub View Post

The tuning strategy points in the article below are some of what's confusing me, especially the parts about setting underboost Turbo Dynamics correction to 100% for 16-bit ECU's and setting boost targets slightly higher than the WGDC will allow for.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...bilizing-boost
The (USDM WRX) 16 bit ECU method of boost control blows. They're basically turning it into exclusively TPS vs. max WGDC controlled boost because using the other tables with a 3 port results in spikes galore. Works okay with bleed, as the spikes are typically softer, but still, I dislike the method used in the 02-05 WRX ECUs. The 16 bit Carberry and JDM Sti methods are more like the 32 bit USDM boost control, which work significantly better. Still anything other than max WGDC control is not smooth to my taste and I still end up making significant used of the max WGDC table to get things smooth.
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Old 11-12-2013, 12:35 AM   #769
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Hybrid boost control is much better when its ran in series, not parallel. Then the MBC sets the spike and the 3port eliminates the taper.

Really though, hybrid boost control is over rated. In most cases, you can achieve the same boost curve/reliability with just a MBC or 3port alone.
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Old 11-12-2013, 01:25 AM   #770
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I'd imagine many of us to not want to keep the boost flat (eliminate taper) when the trade-off is an inefficient turbo blowing hot air up top.

When run in parallel, it is nice to be able to limit partial throttle boost while having MBC control when at WOT. If your aim is to reduce/"eliminate" the taper, you won't achieve that with the MBC alone. I personally like the physical cap with the MBC and as spool-happy as my turbo is, I like to be able to keep my partial throttle boost set lower when in situations like passing in 6th gear. I have also seen an MBC get gunked up and stick allowing a car to over-boost. In a hybrid situation, the EBCS can be use to prevent you from overshooting to 30+ PSI when you were initially running much lower.

Other than trying to eliminate the taper up top, I don't see how it's much better in series.
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Old 11-12-2013, 04:20 AM   #771
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being an idoit.

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Old 11-12-2013, 08:09 AM   #772
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Hybrid boost control is much better when its ran in series, not parallel.
for what purpose?

Quote:
Really though, hybrid boost control is over rated. In most cases, you can achieve the same boost curve/reliability with just a MBC or 3port alone.
show me an mbc only setup that eliminates ptfb and allows the throttle to control the wastegate.

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Originally Posted by Boosted Tuning View Post
And I'd imagine many of us want to keep the boost flat (eliminate taper) when the trade-off is more power because we have an efficient turbo.

Well, we have different goals. I never wanna slow spool or limit partial throttle boost. I (like most people) want the faster spool possible. A MBC provides that, but tapers.
a hybrid does not slow spool. if it does, you did it wrong.

an mbc does not taper. either a) the turbo runs out of breath or b) sections of the intake tract outside of the feedback loop create pressure drop due to flow restriction.

Quote:
Therefore using the 3port in series with the MBC provides the fastest spool, with the ability to control the curve and eliminate the taper (if you choose).
please describe how adding a closed solenoid in parallel slows spool?

Quote:
The boost limit feature in the ECU (which works with any form of boost control) limits you from "overshooting to 30+ PSI when you were initially running much lower." So that point is moot.
boost cut isn't instantaneous. surely you knew that.

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If you wanna limit part throttle boost, you should just be using a 3port and thats it. The tables are setup based on TPS, so controlling part throttle boost easy.
yes, controlling part throttle boost IS easy... with an EBC.

what is not easy is tuning an acceptable tradeoff of response time vs stability. it is ALWAYS a compromise with ANY feedback based boost control, and it is far worse with EBC than with mechanical methods.

Quote:
Also, you can eliminate taper with a MBC alone, you just have to know how.
didn't you just spout about having to use a series connected ebc to eliminate taper?

i do know how. i also know it creates other issues with stability and drivability, because i've done it.

Quote:
Just so you know, I dont run/endorse hybrid boost. But I have tested it, in both forms and have done a lot of MBC testing/tuning/use and ECU boost/3port testing/tuning/use.
CN: i couldn't get it to work properly, so i'm going to make posts on the internet that only noobs would believe.
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Old 11-12-2013, 12:16 PM   #773
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/\ That.
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Old 11-12-2013, 12:58 PM   #774
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being an idoit.

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Old 11-12-2013, 01:18 PM   #775
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^ Not at all. It worked properly. Just because I didnt find it beneficial, doesnt mean I did it wrong. Theres many many tuners that dont find hybrid boost beneficial.

Let me guess, you have already tried hybrid boost in series??? I bet you have not. Therefore, your in a conversation where your saying method A is better then method B, even though you've never used/tested method B. How can you comment that one method is better then another, if you havent used/tested both? I have used/tsted both method A and B, and therefore, I believe Im in a way better position to give an opinion on the topic.

A couple other things. Instead of being so defensive and trying to argue on minor technicalities, why dont people just listen for a second and maybe try to learn about a different form of boost control.

Another thing is why are you afraid of ptfb?? Back in the day, people used to be scared of it. But now, if you can tune your car properly, ptfb is nothing to worry about.
Given that the hybrid setup does not slow spool (it really doesn't as it should be MBC-only under WOT), how is running it in series better? The taper is the natural curve of the turbo. Forcing it to stay up there is just pumping hot air. If someone wants their boost to stay flat and efficient, they generally upgrade to a larger turbo. Other than having a maximum cap with the MBC, I don't see the benefit nor the point of running hybrid in that situation.

As far as the motor allowing the turbo to over-boost. I prefer to use the EBCS to start dropping boost over fuel cut.

I don't think anyone is "afraid" of PTFB, but on a street car, it can get annoying when the car wants to take off on you when you're just trying to make a simple pass or increase speed.

Just how are you getting rid of taper with an MBC-only setup? Exactly how did you set it up in parallel and how did you configure it in the ECU?
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Joe P. MBC XZ Turbo Manual Boost Controller (ebay no reserve) lstepnio Private 'For Sale' Classifieds 0 03-22-2004 06:43 PM
Need Help: An analysis of boost control methods smiles Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain (EJ Series Factory 2.0L Turbo) 16 01-07-2002 03:12 PM


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