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Old 04-22-2008, 12:57 PM   #101
Rogan
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Ken -
I have an HKS MBC that I was going to go with this setup, even tried it, but it seemed to almost be all-or-none. I'm still using the OE EBCS, and had the 100% tps boost column at 17psi. In trying to dial the MBC in to a~20psi, it would blow past 20, and I'd immediately let off, as it shot up to the mid-high 20s (almost instantly). The MBC has "click" settings, and I've narrowed the range down to a couple clicks. clicked down, it hits 14-15psi. a couple clicks up, and it goes deep into the 20s.
Further investigation, I see no "bleed hole" or anything on the MBC, like I'm used to seeing on past MBCs.. I sure wish it was remote to in-cabin, as hood popping gets old very fast LOL
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Old 04-22-2008, 04:37 PM   #102
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i don't know if this setup works with the OE Bleed setup. or atleast i can't visualize in my head how it would.
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Old 04-23-2008, 12:46 AM   #103
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you rang?

to put it in perspective, i'm also running around 30 psi peak, using an STi TMIC and have water/meth injection going.

i found out in the top end, that i wasn't making power by trying to keep boost up- it was more beneficial to back down boost and advance the intake cam timing a bit and that suddenly yielded a 10 whp difference. WAHHOOOOOO! that says to me that i was getting too much backpressure and the motor was unhappy.

my thoughts on tuning boost- set your wastegate duty cycle constant across the whole rpm range and target a very low boost level. slowly increase the wgdc and you will see the natural taper that the turbo wants to run. if you add duty cycle and you don't make more power, you should check to see if boost levels increased or not. if they didn't, it means that you have hit the limit or your wastegate is blowing open.

i don't use any more duty cycle than i need to make optimum power. it's the same as anything else- if you add more and it doesn't help, then don't do it. you just run more liability by putting more strain on the motor without any benefit.

going back to my stockish days, i found that tapering my wgdc helped with my td04 as well. there's not point in increasing shaft speed if you aren't getting more power.

hope that helps.

mike
Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000 View Post
buck, i don't really know.

i know there is some point at which you get much diminishing returns, but i do not bother tapering boost. i played around with boost tapering when it was the "hot topic" around here like 4 years ago, but i tired of it. for the amount of time i actually spend at 6k rpms and up it is just not worth my trouble... ie, i've got everything i need for a very nice ADI rig but i have no time to install it! i'd rather spend my time elsewhere.

that said i know crazymikie has an ej207 and the last time he was on the dyno he picked up a little bit of power by reducing duty cycle/relaxing wastegate tension on the high end. this was ~7-8500 rpms and with a td06 w 8cm housing iirc.
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Old 04-23-2008, 10:59 PM   #104
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Ok, maybe I've either spent too much time thinking about it, or I've totally missed it, either in this thread, or from stupidity..

Say, you have your Boost tables set for 16psi.. and your MBC set for, say, 20..
With my setup (EWG, 3" intake, stock BCS.. grainger on the way).
vac. line from compressor housing to one of the BCS ports. Wastegate port line to the "out" of the MBC, and the "IN" of the MBC to the other port on the BCS..

Wouldn't the MBC always control the boost level, aside from your right foot?
I no longer have the factory "T" and pill in my setup..
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Old 04-24-2008, 08:40 AM   #105
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The way it works is by running them in parallel, not in series. When the MBC in your example is below 20psi, it is always closed, so the factory system works as normal. If you had a spike over 20psi, the MBC would help control it by bypassing the factory system.
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Old 04-24-2008, 09:10 AM   #106
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like this?

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Old 04-24-2008, 11:27 PM   #107
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yup, you got it.
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Old 04-24-2008, 11:34 PM   #108
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Ironically, I just got my Grainger/IR solenoid in the mail today. I'ma hook it up in the morning, before work.
I'm assuming I connect:
Port1 = charge-side of turbo
Port2 = wastegate
Port3 = VTA via filter
MBC = paralleled across Ports 1/2

?


Edit: My current Boost table:
Code:
[Table3D]12	24	36	49	63	76	88	100
2000	1.86	3.87	3.87	4.80	4.80	4.80	5.88	7.89
2500	7.89	8.82	10.83	13.61	16.71	17.17	17.17	17.79
3000	7.89	11.45	11.91	13.61	16.71	18.10	18.87	18.87
3500	9.90	11.45	11.91	13.61	16.71	18.10	18.87	18.87
4000	9.90	11.45	11.91	13.61	16.71	18.10	18.87	18.87
4500	9.90	11.45	11.91	13.61	16.71	18.10	18.87	18.87
5000	9.90	10.83	11.91	13.61	15.78	17.17	18.87	18.87
5500	9.90	10.83	11.91	13.61	15.78	17.17	18.87	18.87
6500	7.89	7.89	11.91	13.61	14.85	17.17	17.94	17.94
WGDC:
Code:
[Table3D]12	24	36	49	63	76	88	100
2000	32.0	32.0	32.0	96.1	96.1	96.1	96.1	99.6
2500	32.0	35.2	64.8	75.0	89.5	95.3	99.6	99.6
3000	32.0	48.0	53.1	66.0	82.4	94.1	99.6	99.6
3500	39.8	48.0	53.1	66.0	82.4	83.6	96.1	97.3
4000	39.8	44.1	53.1	66.0	81.2	83.6	92.6	87.9
4500	39.8	44.1	53.1	66.0	81.2	83.6	90.2	87.9
5500	39.8	44.1	53.1	66.0	81.2	81.2	87.9	78.5
6500	32.0	32.0	53.1	66.0	81.2	81.2	87.9	77.3
With stock BCS on a Precision GT32 and Tial EWG (15psi spring) only max boosts to 15.3..
What am I missing, here, and what's the best method to adjust the tables to accommodate the addition of the Grainger/MBC combo?
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Old 04-25-2008, 10:15 AM   #109
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Cut those duty cycles WAY back. And then slowly raise them until you start reaching your targets.
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Old 05-04-2008, 12:40 PM   #110
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bump....

Last edited by Mach742; 05-06-2008 at 11:44 AM.
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Old 05-12-2008, 09:51 AM   #111
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So I am seriously looking into this. I only have one question. Is there any way to taper boost up top? I can easily run 22psi in the midrange, but on 92 pump it knocks if i run that much up top. I really this idea a lot but I need to retain the ability to taper boost top end. Could you just drop the duty cycle down a bit up top and let the ECU take back over tapering boost? My duty cycles are only like 15 or so up top so Im thinking this would create a huge dip in the boost going from 100 WGDC down to 15 or so. I would think it would way overshoot it and end up with a dippy boost curve, which would be totally defeating the purpose of rock solid boost control

Any ideas? Or should i just put my meth kit on and run 22psi to redline

Edit: for clarification this is with an EVOIII16G with tial 38mm EWG and the gm 3 port. I'm on the brink of ordering a hallman today if i can figure out if i can still taper the boost or not. it sure would be nice to be able to adjust my boost w/o reflashing every time. And much cheaper than something like the HKS

Last edited by simon021; 05-12-2008 at 10:17 AM.
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Old 05-12-2008, 10:19 AM   #112
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the MBC only provides a maximum boost clamp. you are free to run anything between your wastegate pressure and what the MBC is set at via tuning the duty cycle on your electronic boost control. that can be with a third party controller or the oem ecu.
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Old 05-12-2008, 10:26 AM   #113
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I realize that it's possible to do, but does it work well? I seem to remember you saying you gave up on tapering boost a long time ago. Does this mean you just miss out on some midrange and run as much boost across the board as your gas lets you at redline? or do you use meth injection or something that allows you to run a flat boost curve without sacrificing midrange?

I think you have a great idea here I just want to fully understand it's capabilities before i buy this MBC.

I see the most boost waver currently after my map tapers from 21psi down to 18-19, it cant seem to hold a steady psi after it tapers. The best i can get is within 1/2 to 3/4 of a psi. I've played with my WGDC for weeks trying to get it perfect.

I think i need to just get my damn meth kit on and forget about tapering boost :P I think thats when this idea really shines. It just seems like it would defeat the whole purpose of rock solid boost response to taper the boost off up top and let the ECU go back to controlling it where the MBC is needed the most.

What do you think ride?

edit: F it, i bought one. I take it you recommend putting the heavier spring in first Ride?

Last edited by simon021; 05-12-2008 at 10:37 AM.
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Old 05-12-2008, 10:29 AM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluescoobywagon View Post
Cut those duty cycles WAY back. And then slowly raise them until you start reaching your targets.
Hey! You're never on AIM, huh? lol

At any rate, here's my final WG and Boost tables, with the Grainger solenoid:

WGDC:
Code:
[Table3D]12     24      36      49      63      76      88      100
2000    32.0    32.0    44.9    99.6    99.6    99.6    99.6    99.6
2500    32.0    35.2    34.4    89.1    99.6    99.6    99.6    99.6
3000    32.0    48.0    35.9    80.1    96.5    99.6    99.6    99.6
3500    39.8    48.0    35.9    70.7    87.1    88.3    99.6    99.6
4000    39.8    44.1    35.9    70.7    85.9    88.3    99.6    99.6
4500    39.8    44.1    35.9    70.7    85.9    88.3    93.8    99.6
5500    39.8    44.1    35.9    70.7    85.9    85.9    89.1    99.6
6500    32.0    32.0    35.9    70.7    85.9    85.9    89.1    99.6
Boost:
Code:
[Table3D]12      24         36       49      63      76        88     100
2000    1.86    3.87      3.87    4.80     4.80     4.80     5.88    7.89
2500    7.89    8.82     10.83    13.61    16.71    17.17    17.17    17.79
3000    7.89    11.45    11.91    13.61    16.71    18.10    18.87    18.87
3500    9.90    11.45    11.91    13.61    16.71    18.10    18.87    18.87
4000    9.90    11.45    11.91    13.61    16.71    18.10    18.87    18.87
4500    9.90    11.45    11.91    13.61    16.71    18.10    18.87    18.87
5000    9.90    10.83    11.91    13.61    15.78    17.17    18.87    18.87
5500    9.90    10.83    11.91    13.61    15.78    17.17    18.87    18.87
6500    7.89    7.89     11.91    13.61    14.85    17.17    17.94    17.94
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Old 05-12-2008, 10:42 AM   #115
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my boost ramp is quite steep. When I had the setup at 15psi, here's the graphed ramping..

Kinda like getting rear-ended by a bus

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Old 05-12-2008, 03:02 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bchslap View Post
my boost ramp is quite steep. When I had the setup at 15psi, here's the graphed ramping..

Kinda like getting rear-ended by a bus

I believe you are still way too high on the WGDC for part throttle. I run the Grainger as well and am running
Code:
12	 24	  36	  49	 63	 76	  88
0.0	10.2	12.1	15.6	23.0	30.5	38.3
For my part throttle boost.

At your current levels you might as well just be using the MBC. You will easily hit PTFB without the MBC.

Your target boost is way too high for part throttle. You should run more conservative numbers for part throttle. I actually kinda stick close to stock for these.

Last edited by eminehart; 05-12-2008 at 03:39 PM.
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Old 05-12-2008, 03:30 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bchslap View Post
Ironically, I just got my Grainger/IR solenoid in the mail today. I'ma hook it up in the morning, before work.
I'm assuming I connect:
Port1 = charge-side of turbo
Port2 = wastegate
Port3 = VTA via filter
MBC = paralleled across Ports 1/2

?
This is incorrect
The grainger ports are marked differently than the Perrin but on the grainger

Port 1 is VTA or return to intake they work the same.(perrin port2)
Port 2 is for Wastegate (perrin port1)
Port 3 is for Charge side of turbo. (perrin port3)

The grainger is the same as the perrin so check these instructions for clarity
Perrin Boost Control solenoid PDF

You want the fast response setup. Slow response is bleed type like the Factory. I believe you may have set it up to be this way so you basically did nothing but mimic the factory BCS. The factory BCS doesn't work with this setup because of the bleed. Just change your connections around and you'll be fine.

PM me if you have any questions or want some WGDC tables to start with. Just let me know your Target boost and I can get you in the right direction.

Last edited by eminehart; 05-12-2008 at 04:06 PM.
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Old 05-12-2008, 05:58 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bchslap View Post
Hey! You're never on AIM, huh? lol
Not very often any more. I used to be on there constantly...
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Old 05-12-2008, 06:29 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simon021 View Post
I realize that it's possible to do, but does it work well?
yes, it works perfectly.

Quote:
I seem to remember you saying you gave up on tapering boost a long time ago. Does this mean you just miss out on some midrange and run as much boost across the board as your gas lets you at redline?
you can run as much boost as you WANT to run. afr and timing are the other parts of the trinity and those can compensate for any amount of boost.

i gave up on tapering because it was just too little bang for the buck. i turned my attention to other things. up to that point in time i didn't see any advantage to doing it anyway. crazymikie, whose opinion i respect, has pointed out he DID pick up a couple of ponies by tapering and running more advance. perhaps one day i'll screw around with it some more, but it's not on my short list.
Quote:
or do you use meth injection or something that allows you to run a flat boost curve without sacrificing midrange?
no, i basically just run the **** out of the turbo. 25psi is the midrange boost. it tapers itself down to around 21 at redline. it's only a "little" vf23..

Quote:
I think you have a great idea here I just want to fully understand it's capabilities before i buy this MBC.
just like i said, do not think of this in any other way than a "plain jane" interrupt style boost controller. this one just happens to have a "failsafe" overboost protection that kicks in no matter what you happen to be doing with your EBC.

this frees you up to totally disregard boost spikes. there's no such thing as a spike anymore, at least none that exceed the level of boost your mbc is set to. it is still possible to get boost oscillations and such when you're trying to target lower boost at part throttle, but you're not going to "overboost" in the classical sense of exceeding your intended max boost.

Quote:
I see the most boost waver currently after my map tapers from 21psi down to 18-19, it cant seem to hold a steady psi after it tapers. The best i can get is within 1/2 to 3/4 of a psi. I've played with my WGDC for weeks trying to get it perfect.
assuming you're using the oem ecu as an ebc, this sounds like a problem with proportion/integral settings.

Quote:
I think i need to just get my damn meth kit on and forget about tapering boost :P I think thats when this idea really shines. It just seems like it would defeat the whole purpose of rock solid boost response to taper the boost off up top and let the ECU go back to controlling it where the MBC is needed the most.
that depends what your goals are. there are benefits to opening the wastegate at high rpms that crazymikie has observed. no matter what boost control you use, the benefits are the same. with an mbc you don't have the option to taper. with the hybrid setup you do.

Quote:
edit: F it, i bought one. I take it you recommend putting the heavier spring in first Ride?
assuming you're talking about the hallman, then yes. the weaker spring is designed for smaller boost levels.

hth
ken
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Old 05-15-2008, 11:48 PM   #120
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Ok so i got my Hallman Evo RX pro installed today. I hooked it up exactly like in the picture above. one side of the solenoid goes to the top of the EWG and Ting into the bottom of the MBC. the other side of the solenoid goes to the compressor nipple with a T to the side of the EWG, along with another T to the front of the MBC.

No matter where i put the MBC, when im in the cells that are set to 100% boost and 25psi on my map, it never stops the boost. I let off as soon as it spikes above 20

i've tried it with the MBC totally screwed clockwise, and totally screwed counter clockwise.

Do i need to do it differently with the EWG? It makes me wonder because in the MBC directions, they said when using an EWG you just put one side of the MBC to the SIDE of the wastegate, and the other side to the compressor nipple and just leave the top of the wastegate open.

How exactly should this be hooked up with an EWG?

Although i will note one thing, the spool is INSANE! lol
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Old 05-16-2008, 12:08 AM   #121
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i run an EWG, too (TIAL 46mm)..
mine it on the side port. Top port is VTA with a small filter. Grainger EBCS ports 2/3 is paralleled to my MBC.
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Old 05-16-2008, 12:13 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bchslap View Post
i run an EWG, too (TIAL 46mm)..
mine it on the side port. Top port is VTA with a small filter. Grainger EBCS ports 2/3 is paralleled to my MBC.
so explain the whole setup would ya? Just to make sure i understand exactly what you are saying.

and where'd ya get the filter for the top port?

so it goes from the solenoid to SIDE of the wastegate. T'd to the bottom of the MBC

then from the solenoid to the compressor nipple. T'd to the side of the MBC
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Old 05-16-2008, 02:06 AM   #123
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so i switched things around and had a hell of a time. how i originally had it set up, 0 wgdc was wastegate spring pressure boost. now when i switched it around 100% is wastegate spring pressure. That doesnt seem right...

I have a domtune solenoid, so i'm not sure how it's labled compared to the perrin and grainger. are they all set up physicly the same?

It's labeled IN EXH OUT

compared to the perrin

EXH is perrin port 2
IN is 3 and OUT is port 1

The way i originally had it hooked up is the way perrin's instruction suggest and has always worked great. It makes more sense to me that to be able to build boost the solenoid has to energize. I would think the solenoid would last much longer that way.

Just for some reason i couldn't get the MBC to work right just T'ing it in on each side of the solenoid. Unless I just had to flip the MBC around? Maybe i'll try that tomorrow :P
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Old 05-16-2008, 07:46 AM   #124
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simon: simplify the situation and reconnect stuff 1 thing at a time.

run hose from compressor to actuator and make sure the wg operates properly. this is your "min boost."

then put the MBC in the way and make sure IT operates properly. this is your "max boost."

then put the solenoid in the circuit. make sure that the two ports that flow when the thing is unplugged are the two you use to shunt around the mbc.

test drive the car and make sure that with 0% duty you get wastegate, and 100% duty you get mbc.

finally you can start tuning the rest of your part throttle boost targets.
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Old 05-16-2008, 08:44 AM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000 View Post
simon: simplify the situation and reconnect stuff 1 thing at a time.

run hose from compressor to actuator and make sure the wg operates properly. this is your "min boost."

then put the MBC in the way and make sure IT operates properly. this is your "max boost."

then put the solenoid in the circuit. make sure that the two ports that flow when the thing is unplugged are the two you use to shunt around the mbc.

test drive the car and make sure that with 0% duty you get wastegate, and 100% duty you get mbc.

finally you can start tuning the rest of your part throttle boost targets.
When you say run the hose from the compressor to actuator, which side of the EWG is the actuator? the top or the side?

Also does it matter which way the EBC goes? I take it IN is from the compressor nipple and OUT is to the wastegate.

EDIT: Tial says with an EBC to hook it up like i originally had it

compressor nipple to solenoid with a T to the SIDE of the wastegate
TOP of wastegate to solenoid

thats it.

now with a MBC they say to hook it up different.

compressor nipple to MBC
MBC to side of wastegate
top of wastegate VTA

Hence my confusion.

Last edited by simon021; 05-16-2008 at 09:29 AM.
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