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Old 05-16-2008, 02:02 PM   #126
simon021
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I got it figured out. My solenoid must be different, as the 2 ports that are open when it's unhooked are ports 1 and 3 (on the perrin diagram)

it works perfectly now.

My only question is this. It seems to take longer than i expected for my WGDC to ramp up to 100% when i hit the gas. Heres the plot of RPM vs WGDC vs manifold corrected. Is there any way to make this ramp up faster? It takes ~700 rpms to ramp up to 100% WGDC and I would imagine thats killing my spool.



also to clarify my install, i am using the 2 ports on the solenoid that are OPEN when its not energized. one side goes to the compressor nipple T'd to the MBC, other side goes to the SIDE of the EWG, T'd to the MBC.

I also ment to add that as you can see, tapering it still worked perfectly just like Ken said it would. Although I need to adjust my WGDC a little bit, it didnt oscilate at all compared to what I expected.
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Last edited by simon021; 05-16-2008 at 02:56 PM.
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Old 05-16-2008, 03:39 PM   #127
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You can get faster duty ramp up by rescaling the turbo dynamics.
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Old 05-16-2008, 04:49 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluescoobywagon View Post
You can get faster duty ramp up by rescaling the turbo dynamics.
thats what I thought. I actually have a map made with the turbo dynamics cranked up a bit.

could you post up what you would suggest a setting be? I had my turbo dynamics flattened out quite a bit compared to stock and had my boost about perfect before i decided to complicate things and use this method! I think it will be much better once i get it dialed in, but im just curious what kind of numbers you suggest. Also would you scale both continuous and burst?
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Old 05-16-2008, 10:25 PM   #129
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My boost control method for the GM Solenoid isn't for the faint of heart. You have to have the duty cycles spot on or you'll get spikes. If you get those dialed in, than the boost response is crazy fast. Here is my Continuous table (triggered below -.15 / above .25):

Code:
-2.94	-1.70	-0.31	0.31	0.50	1.70	2.94	4.51	7.00
-3.75	-1.50	-0.25	0.10	0.87	10.00	25.00	75.00	100.00
As aggressive as it is, I could probably zero out the burst table, but here it is anyways (triggered below -.39 / above .39):

Code:
-2.94	-1.70	-0.77	0.00	0.31	0.77	1.70	2.94	4.51
-5.50	-2.50	-1.35	0.00	0.54	1.35	7.00	22.00	45.00
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Old 05-17-2008, 02:50 AM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluescoobywagon View Post
My boost control method for the GM Solenoid isn't for the faint of heart. You have to have the duty cycles spot on or you'll get spikes. If you get those dialed in, than the boost response is crazy fast. Here is my Continuous table (triggered below -.15 / above .25):

Code:
-2.94    -1.70    -0.31    0.31    0.50    1.70    2.94    4.51    7.00
-3.75    -1.50    -0.25    0.10    0.87    10.00    25.00    75.00    100.00
As aggressive as it is, I could probably zero out the burst table, but here it is anyways (triggered below -.39 / above .39):

Code:
-2.94    -1.70    -0.77    0.00    0.31    0.77    1.70    2.94    4.51
-5.50    -2.50    -1.35    0.00    0.54    1.35    7.00    22.00    45.00
wow thats insanely aggresive. with my EWG i barely need 20% WGDC to sustain 20psi. Although that does give me the idea to rescale the top of the table and include something like your last column on there. That way if there is a large boost difference it just lets the MBC spool it up. I'll have to try that tomorrow.
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Old 05-22-2008, 09:50 AM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simon021 View Post
wow thats insanely aggresive. with my EWG i barely need 20% WGDC to sustain 20psi. Although that does give me the idea to rescale the top of the table and include something like your last column on there. That way if there is a large boost difference it just lets the MBC spool it up. I'll have to try that tomorrow.
Did you try it out?

I was just looking at one of my last datalogs and I'm able to go from 0% to 98% duty cycle in less than .2 seconds.

Last edited by bluescoobywagon; 05-22-2008 at 10:00 AM. Reason: Crazy fast
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Old 05-22-2008, 10:06 AM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluescoobywagon View Post
Did you try it out?

I was just looking at one of my last datalogs and I'm able to go from 0% to 98% duty cycle in less than .2 seconds.
It works awesome. I am really loving the boost control now. Plus it's nice to be able to adjust the boost in the cabin. it was colder this morning and i noticed right away i was boostin 22.5 instead of 21.5, a quick turn of the dial and back to where it should be.

I love it! Plus if I ever take it in to be serviced i can dial the boost back down to wastegate pretty quickly and easily without flashing another map
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Old 05-24-2008, 07:27 AM   #133
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if you do your own tuning, it is very handy to be able to target different load columns for logging purposes by just turning a knob. you can get a lot of surface mapped out quickly.
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Old 05-25-2008, 05:00 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simon021 View Post
I got it figured out. My solenoid must be different, as the 2 ports that are open when it's unhooked are ports 1 and 3 (on the perrin diagram)

it works perfectly now.

also to clarify my install, i am using the 2 ports on the solenoid that are OPEN when its not energized. one side goes to the compressor nipple T'd to the MBC, other side goes to the SIDE of the EWG, T'd to the MBC.
Is this diagram accurate for how you have yours hooked up?

I am contemplating this setup to get rid of my boost oscillation that I had when I got tuned.
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Old 05-25-2008, 07:15 PM   #135
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Thats exactly how i have it hooked up. Ports 1 and 3 are the 2 ports that are OPEN when the car is off.
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Old 05-25-2008, 10:26 PM   #136
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All I have to say is I absolutely love this setup. It made tuning for boost an afternoon drive instead of a week of tuning. I am learning tuning pretty quick but I have been using an extra gas tank a week doing it. Anything to cut that down is awesome.

I am starting to think it may be possible to run this system on the stock bcs has anybody made an attempt to do this. The setup will be different and have 3 tee's but It may just work. I am a little unsure though.
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Old 06-15-2008, 06:35 PM   #137
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I just went from a hallman mbc to GM BCS for the ability to taper, but I wasn't happy with seeing full boost 700 rpms later. I gotta try this!
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Old 06-15-2008, 11:51 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psipwrd View Post
I just went from a hallman mbc to GM BCS for the ability to taper, but I wasn't happy with seeing full boost 700 rpms later. I gotta try this!
with my vf30 at altitude I get 15 psi in first and 18 psi in second in a drag race type situation. If I am in second gear and punch it at like 4000 RPM i get max boost. Now this could be done with the 3 port BCS but It is a lot of work and time to eliminate spikes. This is so easy plus I can easily check out different boost levels to see which one flows the most air. It is a nice setup.
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Old 06-16-2008, 08:47 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluescoobywagon View Post
My boost control method for the GM Solenoid isn't for the faint of heart. You have to have the duty cycles spot on or you'll get spikes. If you get those dialed in, than the boost response is crazy fast. Here is my Continuous table (triggered below -.15 / above .25):

Code:
-2.94	-1.70	-0.31	0.31	0.50	1.70	2.94	4.51	7.00
-3.75	-1.50	-0.25	0.10	0.87	10.00	25.00	75.00	100.00
As aggressive as it is, I could probably zero out the burst table, but here it is anyways (triggered below -.39 / above .39):

Code:
-2.94	-1.70	-0.77	0.00	0.31	0.77	1.70	2.94	4.51
-5.50	-2.50	-1.35	0.00	0.54	1.35	7.00	22.00	45.00
I got the mechanics hooked up and using the same boost map I had with the GM BCS alone, but "Continuous" and "Burst" tables Where do charts and maps like these come from?
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Old 06-16-2008, 10:08 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psipwrd View Post
I got the mechanics hooked up and using the same boost map I had with the GM BCS alone, but "Continuous" and "Burst" tables Where do charts and maps like these come from?
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Old 06-16-2008, 10:44 PM   #141
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lmao I was about to come into this thread with "you have to be kidding me calling this a new idea, ride5000 did it years ago"


oops
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Old 06-16-2008, 11:14 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psipwrd View Post
I got the mechanics hooked up and using the same boost map I had with the GM BCS alone, but "Continuous" and "Burst" tables Where do charts and maps like these come from?
From Enginuity with old ROM definitions.
The terminology was fixed quite a while ago, but this thread is kinda old.
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Old 06-17-2008, 06:47 AM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow View Post
lmao I was about to come into this thread with "you have to be kidding me calling this a new idea, ride5000 did it years ago"


oops
i think the heat down there is getting to you, dave.

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Old 06-27-2008, 01:08 AM   #144
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Default how to use both ports on EWG plus cap boost with MBC

I've been using Ken's method of boost control on my internal one-port wastegate for a while now and it is THE best way to set boost. Bar none.

However, those that have an external wastegate can only use the bottom port if they want to use this method of setting boost. Until now, maybe...

For reference, let's start with the following diagram.

System 1 - Limit max WDC to 50% to achieve equal pressure at top/bottom port if MBC is disregarded

1) Via tuning, limit max duty cycle to your 3-port solenoid to exactly 50%. This will be the equivalent of running the wastegate with no boost signal lines connected to it. If the top port and bottom port both see the same pressure, boost will sky rocket and hit super high numbers.
2) Install an 'inverse' MBC between the top port and the normally closed (NC) port on the solenoid. This is the port that is closed when the solenoid is off or at 0% duty cycle.
3) Because you have limited duty cycle on the solenoid to 50%, you can now limit pressure to the top port by using your MBC in an inverse fashion. Loose allows more air pressure to reach the top port. This will build more boost. Tight on the MBC or closed will allow less/no air to reach the top port and only the bottom port will see pressure.
4) Profit?

Okay, here are some examples.
WDC = 0%
Pressure will go from Turbo -> IN -> NO -> bottom port only

WDC = 50%
Pressure will go from Turbo -> IN => NC and NO equally. Then you tighten the inverse MBC to limit boost by restricting air to the top port

WDC = 100%
Pressure will not reach the bottom port and blow your **** up.

This system gives you a range of boost options. If you find the boost to be too high even with the inverse MBC at full tight, lower your max WDC and divert more air to the bottom port. If boost is too low even with the inverse MBC at full open, divert more air to the top port by increasing WDC.

Assumptions :
1)50% WDC = equal pressure at the normally open (NO) and normally closed (NC) ports.
2) You are going to start your tuning by keeping the MBC at its tightest sitting and your WDC low. Then gradually increase max WDC to something less than 50%. Then start opening the MBC once your WDC ramps up to a number below 50% and stays solid the entire time at WOT.

Advantages :
1) You can use the top port on your external wastegate for maximum boost.
2) You can be mad 1337.


This is just a theory at this point which will be tested by me at some point in the future. But please, add to this discussion and let's hear your thoughts on whether this will work or not.


Update : Damn, I was making things way too difficult.
Here's the new diagram.

System 2 - max WDC can be 100% to achieve equal pressure at top/bottom port if MBC is disregarded

Everything works the same but now you don't have to worry about limiting yourself to only 50% max WDC. Run 100% WDC as long as you have an inverse MBC between the NC and top port on the wastegate. System 1 above is still 'superior' if you are trying to keep the wastegate shut past what the spring + exhaust gas backpressure wants to do. But most people don't need that. The key to getting this to work is the concept of an 'inverse' MBC.

Last edited by MRF582; 06-27-2008 at 02:07 AM.
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Old 06-27-2008, 01:23 AM   #145
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So you can't use the stock BCS or can you? I read earlier in the thread of someone running this setup with the stock BCS and he said it worked good..... can you use just a stock BCS and ecu with a MBC and it will work?
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Old 07-08-2008, 02:47 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g00dhum0r View Post
So you can't use the stock BCS or can you? I read earlier in the thread of someone running this setup with the stock BCS and he said it worked good..... can you use just a stock BCS and ecu with a MBC and it will work?
there are ways to hook up an oem bcs and a ball/spring interrupt mbc to be used together, but they will not result in the same characteristics as you see here.
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Old 07-08-2008, 08:54 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000 View Post
there are ways to hook up an oem bcs and a ball/spring interrupt mbc to be used together, but they will not result in the same characteristics as you see here.
The reason for this is a 3 port works a lot like a mbc works it allows manifold pressure to back up then at a point(activated BCS or Open MBC) it will open the wastegate. The stock system is the opposite. It allows air to bleed off through a tee and then closes the leak to open the wastegate. There is no way to set it up to work properly because air would be blowing out the stock bcs and never be able to open the MBC.
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Old 09-09-2008, 11:05 AM   #148
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I installed the same HBC RX last night ride For the STI the small spring was enough. All the way to the left 10 psi, far to the right 21psi. Then again I have no pill and am running a prodrive BCS.

In any case I'm flashing a new ROM in a bit. Anything over 87% throttle and the ECU says eff it, 100% WGDC. I might also alter my turbo dynamics a bit.

Its nice to have that set upper bound!

Old thread and good stuff.

I'll post results when I get the chance.
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Old 09-14-2008, 11:16 AM   #149
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What else besides the wgdc and boost targets are you guys altering? How much of the wgdc throttle % area would you alter for this?

Last edited by gto7419; 09-14-2008 at 01:29 PM.
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Old 09-15-2008, 12:49 PM   #150
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bump for above question and, any chance you want to take a screenshot of your target boost and wgdc? Im wondering how these tables interact with those two...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluescoobywagon View Post
My boost control method for the GM Solenoid isn't for the faint of heart. You have to have the duty cycles spot on or you'll get spikes. If you get those dialed in, than the boost response is crazy fast. Here is my Continuous table (triggered below -.15 / above .25):

Code:
-2.94	-1.70	-0.31	0.31	0.50	1.70	2.94	4.51	7.00
-3.75	-1.50	-0.25	0.10	0.87	10.00	25.00	75.00	100.00
As aggressive as it is, I could probably zero out the burst table, but here it is anyways (triggered below -.39 / above .39):

Code:
-2.94	-1.70	-0.77	0.00	0.31	0.77	1.70	2.94	4.51
-5.50	-2.50	-1.35	0.00	0.54	1.35	7.00	22.00	45.00
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