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Old 07-27-2004, 06:47 PM   #1
SmoknWRX
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Default top end timing values on stage 4+ set up

mods:
APS tmic
garrett turbo
800cc injectors
exhaust
fuel rails
walbro
ngk 2 step colder plugs
intake
some other little stuff

Question...
top end in my 90 and 100% load columns i cant seem to use a value more advanced than 18 without seeing knock at 19-20 psi. air/fuels are about 10.5 at that point. is this a normal value for that boost and air fuel ratio? because after studying other stg 4 maps that are based on 18 psi i see values as high as 23-24-25. my buddies vf34 set up on his car runs 19-20 psi with timing values of 23 up high with no knock. my thresholds are currently set at 85 in that rpm range........any help guys? it doesnt seem like its pulling as hard as it should
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Old 07-27-2004, 07:51 PM   #2
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10.5 is kinda rich, imo
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Old 07-27-2004, 10:25 PM   #3
Si2WRX
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What gear did you measure it at 10.5? If that's 4th gear, you can lean it more towards 11:1 and pick up more horsepower.

As far as timing, what Garrett are you running? VF34's aren't exactly pushing much air at 20psi compared to larger turbos.
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Old 07-27-2004, 10:54 PM   #4
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this is a very large turbo compared to a vf34 so i know its flowing more air. it was built by MRT AR .60, 53 trim, supposedly a 600 hp turbo with peak efficiency upwards of 36 psi. so i know at 20 psi with this turbo vs vf34 20 psi is a different ball game. i know this turbo is slighty larger than the XS engineering 500, what timing values are normally run with those kind of turbos? i know 10.5 is a little rich and im goin to lean it out as i build my fuel map more but wouldn't that in turn cause me to have to pull timing even more if im seeing knock now at that air fuel and 18 as my timing value? im still baffled
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Old 07-28-2004, 12:20 AM   #5
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I'm going to go out and say that 18 timing is too low for only 18psi. I would say it's bad gas maybe, or you have another problem. Have you done a comp. test lately? That does seem off at 10.5.1 and 18psi.
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Old 07-28-2004, 03:10 PM   #6
Si2WRX
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Do you have another way of monitoring knock? TXS Tuner, Knock Link, Delta Dash (via knock correction values)? Some way to confirm what you're seeing is knock and not noise.

At 18psi, I'm running 18 at its lowest and ramps up from there. 20G, FMIC.

Hopefully your engine is in good health.
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Old 07-28-2004, 04:48 PM   #7
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The higher flowing the turbine is, the more exhaust gets through the motor and the lower the exhaust backpressure. EGR effect or reburn is reduced, Flow in and out is sped up and less timing advance is required.

You have typical advance numbers.. I agree. Lean out the mixture. You can run leaner now that you have the lower turbine press. Probably find you can put a degree or two back in up top.

Clark
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Old 07-28-2004, 05:13 PM   #8
big_adventure
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I didn't run more than 20 with my GT30R on my EJ205 at 20-23psi.

On the RA Spec C EJ207, though, I run up to 25 det free. Gott love a good engine...

-Sean
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Old 07-28-2004, 07:00 PM   #9
SmoknWRX
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first question: what are all of your knock thresholds? Si2WRX no im just going off of factory knock sensors. like i said my thresholds from 4k and up are 85.

second question: what manifold pressure is best for my minimum mapping value?

third: during 3rd gear pulls should i adjust my maximum value for mapping so that i only see 90% load sites, 90 and 100, or just 100?

fourth: during 1st gear, what air/fuel ratio should i shoot for?

im sure more questions will surface but i appreciate your input guys. ive spent alot of time with this car trying to get it running right and id be lieing if i said i didnt learn something new everyday about this utec and tuning in general. this has been a little on the difficult side due to the fact there isnt much of a base map to work off of for what im running on my car. hopefully things will turn out good though! thanks again!
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Old 07-28-2004, 07:01 PM   #10
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by the way im seeing 20 psi in third and fourth
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Old 07-28-2004, 07:16 PM   #11
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Factory knock threashold values are a bit on the sensitive side for my tastes but they are a good start. On my car I run 10 less from 4k and up.

Set max map value a bit higher then the max boost you will ever run. Sensor reads until 24 so no point in raising past that. In your case 22 might be ideal.

Clark
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Old 07-29-2004, 09:20 AM   #12
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I'm runnin' up to 25 degrees of advance with 21psi of boost. But I use 95 octane from the pump exclusively. It's amazing how much difference a few points of octane make.
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Old 07-29-2004, 10:47 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zackbo
I'm runnin' up to 25 degrees of advance with 21psi of boost. But I use 95 octane from the pump exclusively. It's amazing how much difference a few points of octane make.
I run the same advance on my VF22 @ 21 psi on 93.
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Old 07-29-2004, 11:17 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zackbo
I'm runnin' up to 25 degrees of advance with 21psi of boost. But I use 95 octane from the pump exclusively. It's amazing how much difference a few points of octane make.
What kind of I/C and turbo are you talking about? I ran 27 degrees up top with my vf34 and a TXS TMIC @18psi, 23-24 degrees with a vf34 and APS FMIC @ 20-21psi, and 20-21 degrees with the GT30R. Better turbo and better I/C = lower timing required for good burn due to higher VE.

With the GT30R, I didn't (couldn't, in fact, saw det) add timing when jumping to ~98 octane blend. Not even a point. I did add 4+ psi and leaned it out from 11.3-11.7 to 11.7-12.1.

-Sean
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Old 07-29-2004, 11:44 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by big_adventure
What kind of I/C and turbo are you talking about? I ran 27 degrees up top with my vf34 and a TXS TMIC @18psi, 23-24 degrees with a vf34 and APS FMIC @ 20-21psi, and 20-21 degrees with the GT30R. Better turbo and better I/C = lower timing required for good burn due to higher VE.

With the GT30R, I didn't (couldn't, in fact, saw det) add timing when jumping to ~98 octane blend. Not even a point. I did add 4+ psi and leaned it out from 11.3-11.7 to 11.7-12.1.

-Sean


I'm runnin' a Deadbolt Kong turbo on the stock tmic

Next mod is an FMIC.
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Old 07-29-2004, 11:54 AM   #16
big_adventure
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That's why you are running so much more timing than I used to on my ef205. As nice as that Kong turbo sounds, my GT30R is a heck of a lot bigger and more efficient.

I called Deadbolt about that, and they didn't want to share comp maps or specs with me. Understandably, since I guess somebody stole a turbo design from from them. Anyway, how does that thing spool and respond? What kind of power are you putting down?

-Sean
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Old 07-29-2004, 01:01 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by big_adventure
That's why you are running so much more timing than I used to on my ef205. As nice as that Kong turbo sounds, my GT30R is a heck of a lot bigger and more efficient.

I called Deadbolt about that, and they didn't want to share comp maps or specs with me. Understandably, since I guess somebody stole a turbo design from from them. Anyway, how does that thing spool and respond? What kind of power are you putting down?

-Sean

It's a good all-around turbo for daily driving and auto-x, but it's not a BIG power turbo by any means. Spools really fast; just slightly slower that the stock TD04. The advantage to that is you can get +20psi at low rpm's, right in the max torque range of the ej205, so most dynos of the Kong get higher or equal #s for torque as HP, which is rare for the ej205. But, again, it's definitely not for big power. I can't even hold 20psi past 6k.

I haven't been tuned yet, but I'm showing right at 285whp on both DD and my G-tech. Nothing close to your league, Sean

Last edited by Zackbo; 07-29-2004 at 01:52 PM.
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Old 07-29-2004, 05:32 PM   #18
SmoknWRX
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i guess i really need help then. ive leaned the fuel out to about 11.1-11.3 in 3rd-4th gear. the thing is i have to run 16 as my timing values up top unless i wanna see knock. what the hell is goin on? its not pulling hard either
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Old 07-29-2004, 05:37 PM   #19
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What plugs are you running Smokn... Sounds like you might have flame out or some kind of misfire going on..

C
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Old 07-29-2004, 06:38 PM   #20
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two step colder NGK's, just put them in like 3 days ago............but even on the stock plugs the situation was the same
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Old 07-30-2004, 09:34 AM   #21
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anyone ever ran into this problem?? i plan to spend several hours tonight trying to get things corrected and any input would be great
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Old 07-30-2004, 10:44 AM   #22
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Have you checked for boost leaks anywhere?? Maybe the reason you are so rich is due to a boost leak and you are pulling that turbo out of it eff. range(altough thats doubtful). Also, what wideband are you running?? Does it have datalogging?? If so, could you post a short log??
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Old 07-30-2004, 03:23 PM   #23
SmoknWRX
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i mean i could lean out the fuel mixture, thats not a problem. im using Innovates LM-1. im positive the turbo isnt out of its efficiency range. no boost leaks, ive taken the intercooler off several times to check everything. i talked to nathan at txs and he said that he has found some turbos dont like alot of timing, other work better with more. i dont know what the issue is yet.
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Old 07-30-2004, 03:36 PM   #24
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A lot of people don't run more than 18 or so up top with Greens and Garretts - you have a big old turbo, so mellow timing is OK. What kind of EGTs do you see?

-Sean
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Old 07-30-2004, 04:10 PM   #25
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with the LM-1 though are you using datalogging with afr vs. rpm?
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