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Old 07-28-2004, 05:34 AM   #1
makofoto
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Default Shiv EcuTek locked in @ Multiplier 16 !?

We got to run my Shiv Dyno tuned engine/EcuTek with a Delta Dash today ... and found that it seems that the Ignition Advance Multiplier is Locked in at 16. We did a Delta Dash ECU reset ... and the multiplier stayed at 16.

We were getting what we believe to be detonation events ... with corresponding Knock Correction ... at up to - 2.0. Wouldn't it be better if the Multiplier could go to a lower number ?
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Old 07-28-2004, 10:02 AM   #2
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Maybe this is the reason why the ECU learning trick doesn't have to be done anymore. I would suspect that it would go down if it was repeatedly knocking, but the best person to ask would probably be Shiv.

Calvin
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Old 07-28-2004, 10:18 AM   #3
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When you do the ECU reset via DeltaDash you have to not only kill the power to the ignition, but also wait a bit for the ECU to turn off. It doesn't always happen immediately.
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Old 07-28-2004, 12:35 PM   #4
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no the multiplier will lower itself if you have some really bad gas, I checked mine randomly one day and it was 13. This is on a dyno tuned car by Shiv.

can you post some logs of what you think is knock? what kind of load is on the engine when you see those knock correction values?
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Old 07-28-2004, 12:51 PM   #5
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I'm waiting for my Buddy/DD owner Jeff to either send me the files or perhaps he will answer and post our results directly. We spent the day doing many different types of runs, warm So. Ca. mid day, cool evening, steady state freeway, hard 2nd and 3rd gear runs from 1,500 rpm, hard 4th gear FWY acceleration runs, heat soaked, low and high boost maps, w/ 91 and 94+ octane ...

I had done an ECU reset a couple of days ago ... battery was disconnected for a few days ... and sort of did a Shiv Quick Re-Set ... when we first plugged the DD in yesterday morning ... it was already at 16.

More info on the det events soon ...

My car has a Vishnu Stg 1 ... but I only recently added a ScoobySport DP ... and the EcuTek has not been re-mapped with a open DP. I have a STI IC, APS Up-Pipe and Aluminum IC Manifold, Stromung cat-less exhaust, ProDrive muffler, one stage colder NGK Iridium plugs. The High Boost map creeps up to almost 18 PSI with the new DP added. Before the ScoobySport DP, High Boost was 17. Engine has 26k on it ... has around 100+ AX runs and 25 drag race runs on it. On the street it's not run hard. Engine compression is down in the 141/144 range and I'm using about quart of oil or more in 1K ... depending on my AX schedule ... seems like the rings are going.
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Old 07-28-2004, 01:39 PM   #6
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I just got DD and read a ton of threads on the Ecutek Forum about the Knock correction values. Unfortunately one must interpret det from DD Knock correction values....But from what I have read, that The DD knock correction is the sum of the ECU's Course Ignition Learning, Fine Ignition Learning and Realtime Knock Correction, it seems that I am interpreting the Det correctly.

I am sending Mako the log files both in CSV format and in a screenshot format so he can post the logs....

Another thing that is strange, is that his Advanced multiplier is not changing from 16....It starts at 16 and stays at 16 regardless....As per Ecutek U do not need to drain ecu power to complete a ecu reflash with DD....
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Old 07-28-2004, 01:44 PM   #7
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To add to Mako's comments, we did the same DD ECU reset on Jeff's WRX (no EcuTek, Jeff is running with a Cobb map/Access Port) and his multiplier reset to 8 like you would expect. Jeff and I then went on a quick drive and did the Vishnu post-reset procedure and the mutiplier popped up to 16.

Its weird that Mako's mutiplier would stay at 16 even after a reset. I wonder if that is part of the Vishnu tuning? Vishnu tuning generally appears to be slightly less aggressive than others so I'd be surprised if he's purposefully fixed the multiplier at 16.

On a side note, we hooked up the DD to my STi. There's definitely more stuff being monitored by the STi ECU, but interestingly enough, no multiplier.

-Mark
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Old 07-28-2004, 02:17 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makofoto
We got to run my Shiv Dyno tuned engine/EcuTek with a Delta Dash today ... and found that it seems that the Ignition Advance Multiplier is Locked in at 16. We did a Delta Dash ECU reset ... and the multiplier stayed at 16.
It's not locked. It goes to 16 at reset. It WILL go lower if needed. Trust in the logic that is in the ECU.

Quote:
We were getting what we believe to be detonation events ... with corresponding Knock Correction ... at up to - 2.0. Wouldn't it be better if the Multiplier could go to a lower number ?
If knock correction adjusted, it's taken care of your worry. Trust in the logic that is in the ECU.
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Old 07-28-2004, 02:47 PM   #9
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Read Shiv's sticky post at the top. He says that upon ECU reset the multiplier reverts to 8. What gives?
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Old 07-28-2004, 02:59 PM   #10
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When my 03 WRX was tuned at GRD, using the ecutek, Tuan told me that the multiplier was locked at 16. This is so it doesn't change on your while tuning, and so that you're maps are running off of more known variables, if i understand correctly.
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Old 07-28-2004, 03:15 PM   #11
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about a year ago, vishnu started setting the default IAM to 16 on their reflashes. it's been that way ever since. it just means you have max ignition advance after a reset. the knock detection and ignition redardation functions of the ecu are exactly the same as stock.
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Old 07-28-2004, 03:22 PM   #12
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Gotcha, but on stock ECUs the multiplier would revert to 8.
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Old 07-28-2004, 03:25 PM   #13
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That post is 1.5 years old. Yes, stock ECU is 8. Reflashed by Shiv/Vishnu specifically is 16. Reflashed elsewhere could be anything they desire.
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Old 07-28-2004, 03:39 PM   #14
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And this applies to 2004 ECUs, yes?
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Old 07-28-2004, 03:51 PM   #15
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In my opinion...

It seems very risky to lock off the multiplier at 16....

From what I understand, the ECU uses the sum of 3 knock correction values to keep the car from det....this sum is represented in DD by the "Knock Correction" value. If U were to lock off the multiplier at 16, U infact take the biggest portion of the "knock correction" out of the safety loop. Remaining in the safety loop is the fine ignition tuning and the realtime knock correction. To my understanding the fine ignition tuning will only correct to a certain value IE (+6 or -6....maybe even lower than that)...once the fine learning gets to it's max value for that cell, it then reavaluates the Index multiplier and decreses it or increases it, in which case it then sets the fine learning to a default value to learn again....And by only relying on Fine learning and realtime det correction you are limiting the ecu's ability to correct for det.....

Please can someone either confirm or negate my theory...

Buzz
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Old 07-28-2004, 04:44 PM   #16
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Its not locked.. Its a simple setting in the ECUtek rom file editor.. "initial IAM on reset". Meaning.. if you reset the ECU what IAM do you want to start at. Factory setting is 8.. The car learns up from there to 16.. that is unless you knock enough to have the IAM stop before it reaches 16. It takes ALOT of knock to get the IAM to come down.

Why do this? If you reset the ECU you get 16 IAM off the bat and get full ignition advance. You dont have to learn up or perform the loading "trick" to make this happen.

Drawbacks? You are assuming 16 is the correct setting so if you reset the ECu and had lower octane gas you would start out knocking right off the bat and not learn up to the threashold that works...

IAM will go down and it is not locked.

C
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Old 07-28-2004, 04:56 PM   #17
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Hopefully it isn't locked.....I am the one who did the DD tests with Mako and his Wagon......I have reviewed all of the logs we did yesterday. There is a huge amount of Det going on in the engine (Less at night but still there compared to higher ambient temps).....After doing many tests....not once did the multiplier ever come down from 16.....This leads me to believe that his Flash is by all means locked at 16. I compare this with the flash on my WRX.....where when knock is detected and timing has hit an absolute curve, the advance index multiplier changes.....up and down....none of this happened with Makos ECU....

I have sent Mako the Logs....I hope he can post them soon to confirm my claim....


Jeff
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Old 07-28-2004, 05:01 PM   #18
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Its not knocking enough to come down. Its not locked.. You cant lock it.. I have the ECUtek programmer... Believe what you want.

Mako may have a faulty Knock sensor, wiring or other issue at play.. But that ECU is not locked.

C
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Old 07-28-2004, 05:08 PM   #19
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See the Red Circle on the Knock Correction Line ... the fact that the Knock Correction is below zero ... indicates to us (Delta Dash Newbies) that the Multiplier should be reduced from 16 ... ?



This chart show what we believe is Detonation during hard 2nd and 3rd gear pulls starting at around 1,500 RPM, with 94+ octane, cool evening ...



more charts to follow ...

Charts can also be seen here, bottom of the page: http://public.fotki.com/makofoto/even_more_photos/
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Old 07-28-2004, 05:11 PM   #20
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Untrue...

C
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Old 07-28-2004, 05:13 PM   #21
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Those Knock Correction curves should be smooth ... see how they are interupted by correction ...

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Old 07-28-2004, 05:14 PM   #22
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C ... what do you think we are seeing in those areas circled in Red ... thanks ...
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Old 07-28-2004, 05:17 PM   #23
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knock at Throttle Lift ... ?

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Old 07-28-2004, 05:19 PM   #24
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Quote:
the fact that the Knock Correction is below zero ... indicates to us (Delta Dash Newbies) that the Multiplier should be reduced from 16
You assume incorrectly.

IAM is not lockable and will adjust when it needs to.

Go put 89 octane in the tank and limit boost to 7psi if you have to prove it to yourself.
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Old 07-28-2004, 05:24 PM   #25
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Its hard to read on my PC but it appears just about all of those areas are at partial throttle cruise. Knock correction is a table and without seeing the learned knock correction table where the ECU as actually adjusted advance Its hard to say.... I can view that with the Flash tool but not with Delta dash.

The idea that the second knock correction happens, the result would be a reduced IAM is just not correct. There are many other factors that determin the IAM and time is one of them. You wont see reduction if you reset and do some pulls.. I have had cars come in with "machine Gun detonation" do due a mistune or a parts change that effected the tune.. I am talking audible "clack, clack, tick, clack clak" along with unburnt fuel smoke out the tailpipe bad knock... and the IAM will be at 16 through all of that.. From those logs I am not seeing a car that is knocking badly.. Hard to say and hard to read.

C

C
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