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Old 01-22-2014, 02:57 PM   #1
tnrknght
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Default frankenboost build idea sound?

Okay so ive heard rumor that its doable I just wanna get some more info on it.

-phaseII EJ22 block (99 legacy L wagon)
-PhaseII EJ25 Heads (02 impreza obs)
-Homebrew turbo setup (none sourced yet)

I only plan on running around 8psi boost, not looking to set the world on fire. What Im most worried about is the acute details like which head gaskets to use, or which harness/ecu would be best suited. What kind of tuning will be involved if I keep it at the 8lb boost goal? (will I have to run a piggyback etc)

I would imagine that with the 2.5 heads I would wanna run the 2.5 intake manifold and harness/ecu so all the sensors match. I ran into that doing the p1-p2 swap in my legacy

I also heard that the delta 1500 cams work well with boost, any input on that? Not sure if I should have to do anything different with the internals (again Im not pushing 20lbs)

Im a hands on kinda guy, you ask me to turn a wrench I can do it. the mathematical procedures and determining what pistons will be adequate or preferable for the proper air volume in the cylinders.... I leave that to the smart people
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Old 01-24-2014, 09:48 PM   #2
geronimo81
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Sounds like a solid plan. Not sure I can help you with the finer details. You will need some kind of engine management if you do a hybrid motor. A piggyback that can control fuel/timing would be ideal. Another option would be to swap to a wrx ecu/harness and tune it via open source.
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Old 01-26-2014, 01:55 AM   #3
Zefy
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i have done some slightly similar things and a few notes... Your stock 99 manifold should work on the ej25 heads. If the valve covers look the same then it will bolt on and function just fine. Just make sure the crank and cam pulley triggers are the same between both engines.

You have a maf sensors so this will be different from mine. But I'm using a greddy emanage ultimate. While it does have some funky weird things going on with it, it is a solid system. Awkward to get running nicely but it's cheap and will suit your purpose nicely. There have a been a few for sale here in the 400-500 dollar range with pretty much everything you need to get going. There are much better options available, but for the money...? Nothing. Megasquirt diypnp is something that i've been looking at but not many people have had much luck with it so I didn't bother switching.

Your options will be limited by how much wiring you're willing to do and how much you want to spend...

I also used wrx 440 injectors. Very cheap as nobody wants them.

If you decide to get delta regrinds, just tell them what your goals are (basically what you wrote) and they will give you some good advice.
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Old 01-26-2014, 11:39 AM   #4
tnrknght
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Quote:
Another option would be to swap to a wrx ecu/harness and tune it via open source.
Would the wrx ecu match the 2.5rs harness or would I be looking at yet again finding a harness and rewiring it to match the wrx ecu and the 2.5rs heads? If I end up having to get into wire merges Ill just save the info for iWire lol

Quote:
i have done some slightly similar things and a few notes... Your stock 99 manifold should work on the ej25 heads. If the valve covers look the same then it will bolt on and function just fine. Just make sure the crank and cam pulley triggers are the same between both engines.
Thats exactly why I was thinking of the 2.5 mani with the 2.5 wiring. Granted I could swap the harness over, but I found out the hard way with my legacy swap that the 99 and 98 were too different in exactly that category, and I was in no mood to swap out the cam gears.

Quote:
You have a maf sensors so this will be different from mine. But I'm using a greddy emanage ultimate.
I dont remember specifically on the 2.5 but Im pretty sure that both the motors were MAP, not MAF. I know for sure that the 2.2 was map because that was how I found out the difference between phase1 and phase2...

Quote:
Your options will be limited by how much wiring you're willing to do and how much you want to spend...
Im willing to rip the entire car down to a bare hunk of sheet metal and start from scratch. Im not scared to get into a big wiring job. The entire car is looking to be a 3-5yr project, after I get the forester for a daily driver I can start working on the chassis/suspension. Motor will be built on the side as time/money permits.

Last edited by tnrknght; 01-26-2014 at 11:45 AM. Reason: dee de dee
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Old 01-26-2014, 04:55 PM   #5
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Some people have reported that phase 2 2.2 pistons aren't good for boost. But susiemk has run them for years with boost. Check this link out:

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthrea...es-209861.html

I went with an older 2.2 shortblock/pistons personally.
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Old 01-27-2014, 04:27 PM   #6
Zefy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnrknght View Post
Would the wrx ecu match the 2.5rs harness or would I be looking at yet again finding a harness and rewiring it to match the wrx ecu and the 2.5rs heads? If I end up having to get into wire merges Ill just save the info for iWire lol

Thats exactly why I was thinking of the 2.5 mani with the 2.5 wiring. Granted I could swap the harness over, but I found out the hard way with my legacy swap that the 99 and 98 were too different in exactly that category, and I was in no mood to swap out the cam gears.

I dont remember specifically on the 2.5 but Im pretty sure that both the motors were MAP, not MAF. I know for sure that the 2.2 was map because that was how I found out the difference between phase1 and phase2...

Im willing to rip the entire car down to a bare hunk of sheet metal and start from scratch. Im not scared to get into a big wiring job. The entire car is looking to be a 3-5yr project, after I get the forester for a daily driver I can start working on the chassis/suspension. Motor will be built on the side as time/money permits.
Every 2.2L i've seen has been MAF. And I have personally done this swap into my 99... So i know... Yes, 99 and 98 are 100% different. But you're not doing that... 99 and 02 share a lot of components. Just bolt your 2.2L manifold to your 2.5L heads. Zero wiring needed for this swap. I ran it like this for YEARS.

If you're going to go to the effort of swapping a wrx harness and ECU with iwire to run your frankenswap you might as well just fork out the extra coin and do a proper swap. Making a wrx ecu run a 2.5rs motor is very round about. To make the wrx ecu work with your factory wiring you will have to re-pin your ecu/harness and then reprogram.

The 2.5L manifold is exactly the same as the 2.2L manifold, less wiring and sensor differences. And actually the 2.2L manifold does not have the air assist injectors so it is better for swapping to bigger injectors (like wrx or sti pinks).

It seems silly to me that you'd rather rewire an entire engine harness than undo one bolt and remove the cam gear. You probably don't even need to change it and you can just feel behind the gear to check when you're building your motor. There is only a couple different styles and they're very different so it's easy to see.
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Old 01-27-2014, 09:36 PM   #7
tnrknght
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zefy View Post
Every 2.2L i've seen has been MAF. And I have personally done this swap into my 99... So i know... Yes, 99 and 98 are 100% different. But you're not doing that... 99 and 02 share a lot of components. Just bolt your 2.2L manifold to your 2.5L heads. Zero wiring needed for this swap. I ran it like this for YEARS.

If you're going to go to the effort of swapping a wrx harness and ECU with iwire to run your frankenswap you might as well just fork out the extra coin and do a proper swap. Making a wrx ecu run a 2.5rs motor is very round about. To make the wrx ecu work with your factory wiring you will have to re-pin your ecu/harness and then reprogram.

The 2.5L manifold is exactly the same as the 2.2L manifold, less wiring and sensor differences. And actually the 2.2L manifold does not have the air assist injectors so it is better for swapping to bigger injectors (like wrx or sti pinks).

It seems silly to me that you'd rather rewire an entire engine harness than undo one bolt and remove the cam gear. You probably don't even need to change it and you can just feel behind the gear to check when you're building your motor. There is only a couple different styles and they're very different so it's easy to see.
The motor thats currently in my 99 impreza l, which is a 2.2, is map. Same as the motor thats currently sitting as a spare for the project. I mentioned the 98 because that was the year legacy with the maf that I bought that spare motor for, not knowing at the time about the differences.

The iwire was probably more of a cocky exaggeration, I always have greater ideas than the benefit to them I realize that running a piggyback would probably be more beneficial than going through all that to run a wrx ecu. maybe if I was looking to get into a fastest-subie-in-the-world build would it be sensible.

I figured the manifolds would be physically the same with differences in the wiring, thats why I figured the 2.5 wiring would make more sense with the 2.5 heads. I didnt consider, however, about the injectors swapability. And thats why I ask those who know the paths I wish to walk

Its not that Im unwilling to do the one bolt, but for me its a snowball effect... taking off that one bolt and changing the gear, I might as well change the timing belt at the same time. If I'm gonna do that, maybe I should change the water pump and oil pump while the timing belt is off. At that point itd be easier to do the work with the motor out, and while Im at it I could do the head gaskets while its out. Right after dropping in a motor that was intended to be a beat-around motor, and having swapped all the sensor pigtails to match from the old ecm to the new motor.... it made more sense to take the phase1 that was given to me and drop it in, put this other motor to the side. Hence the spare motor lol.
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Old 01-27-2014, 10:14 PM   #8
Zefy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnrknght View Post
The motor thats currently in my 99 impreza l, which is a 2.2, is map. Same as the motor thats currently sitting as a spare for the project. I mentioned the 98 because that was the year legacy with the maf that I bought that spare motor for, not knowing at the time about the differences.

The iwire was probably more of a cocky exaggeration, I always have greater ideas than the benefit to them I realize that running a piggyback would probably be more beneficial than going through all that to run a wrx ecu. maybe if I was looking to get into a fastest-subie-in-the-world build would it be sensible.

I figured the manifolds would be physically the same with differences in the wiring, thats why I figured the 2.5 wiring would make more sense with the 2.5 heads. I didnt consider, however, about the injectors swapability. And thats why I ask those who know the paths I wish to walk

Its not that Im unwilling to do the one bolt, but for me its a snowball effect... taking off that one bolt and changing the gear, I might as well change the timing belt at the same time. If I'm gonna do that, maybe I should change the water pump and oil pump while the timing belt is off. At that point itd be easier to do the work with the motor out, and while Im at it I could do the head gaskets while its out. Right after dropping in a motor that was intended to be a beat-around motor, and having swapped all the sensor pigtails to match from the old ecm to the new motor.... it made more sense to take the phase1 that was given to me and drop it in, put this other motor to the side. Hence the spare motor lol.
you want the manifold wiring to match the ECU wiring, not the heads. The ecu doesn't care (or know) what heads are on it but it will know if one of the sensors is different. So hence, always keep matching wiring. Just because it might plug in does not mean it is pinned the same. (most of the time it isn't!)

And you're building a motor anyway, unless i missed something...? You want to put 2.5 heads on a 2.2? You have to pull the heads off and swap them to the 2.2 block anyway. At the very least you need headgaskets and intake manifold gaskets. But I would replace all of the things you listed (except the oil pump) if you're doing this build. You're building a turbo motor out of N/A parts. You might as well make it at least slightly reliable by replacing a timing belt, pulleys, water pump, and maybe a seal or two...

Pulling the motor and doing all of these maintenance things is the easiest part of doing a frankenturbo build.
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Old 01-27-2014, 10:41 PM   #9
tnrknght
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zefy View Post
you want the manifold wiring to match the ECU wiring, not the heads. The ecu doesn't care (or know) what heads are on it but it will know if one of the sensors is different. So hence, always keep matching wiring. Just because it might plug in does not mean it is pinned the same. (most of the time it isn't!)

And you're building a motor anyway, unless i missed something...? You want to put 2.5 heads on a 2.2? You have to pull the heads off and swap them to the 2.2 block anyway. At the very least you need headgaskets and intake manifold gaskets. But I would replace all of the things you listed (except the oil pump) if you're doing this build. You're building a turbo motor out of N/A parts. You might as well make it at least slightly reliable by replacing a timing belt, pulleys, water pump, and maybe a seal or two...

Pulling the motor and doing all of these maintenance things is the easiest part of doing a frankenturbo build.
That is a good point, if Im gonna use the 2.2 computer then Ill use the 2.2 manifold/harness. And I think I may have gotten you a little mixed up lol I mentioned the 98 for mmy old legacy wagon that I was just trying to get a motor in to keep it going when I had the issue with the p1-p2 and the harness merging and such. I already had that motor in when I tried turning it over, got a cps code and found out Id have to swap out the gear. I had another p1 motor available so I took the p2 out and put a p1 in and got that legacy going, which is currently my brother-in-law's project.

I am currently working on my 99 impreza. Almost 250k on it, all original. I have a spare 2.2 and a 2.5 leftover from our bugeye project. with those two motors out I can build the frankenmotor while driving With this motor I have every intention of doing a proper build, which will of course include new head gaskets, timing, I have an STi oil pump sitting which will likely go in if it matches. Ill probably have the block and heads looked at at the local machine shop, and still looking to see which delta cams would go best for a frankenboost.
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Old 01-29-2014, 01:52 PM   #10
Zefy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnrknght View Post
That is a good point, if Im gonna use the 2.2 computer then Ill use the 2.2 manifold/harness. And I think I may have gotten you a little mixed up lol I mentioned the 98 for mmy old legacy wagon that I was just trying to get a motor in to keep it going when I had the issue with the p1-p2 and the harness merging and such. I already had that motor in when I tried turning it over, got a cps code and found out Id have to swap out the gear. I had another p1 motor available so I took the p2 out and put a p1 in and got that legacy going, which is currently my brother-in-law's project.

I am currently working on my 99 impreza. Almost 250k on it, all original. I have a spare 2.2 and a 2.5 leftover from our bugeye project. with those two motors out I can build the frankenmotor while driving With this motor I have every intention of doing a proper build, which will of course include new head gaskets, timing, I have an STi oil pump sitting which will likely go in if it matches. Ill probably have the block and heads looked at at the local machine shop, and still looking to see which delta cams would go best for a frankenboost.
which sti oil pump do you have? the 10mm or 11mm? I am currently running the 11mm and it is way to big for a motor without dual AVCS. It is constantly in bypass so it sheers the hell out of the oil. I am moving to the 10mm pump which honestly is still probably to big.
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Old 01-31-2014, 12:35 AM   #11
tnrknght
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Originally Posted by Zefy View Post
which sti oil pump do you have? the 10mm or 11mm? I am currently running the 11mm and it is way to big for a motor without dual AVCS. It is constantly in bypass so it sheers the hell out of the oil. I am moving to the 10mm pump which honestly is still probably to big.
I believe its the 11mm so Im glad I mentioned it haha so I suppose the stock oil pump would be the better choice? Or should I search for a specific one? The sti pump I received in trade with a small bunch of parts plus cash for my old p1 motor from my old legacy. Figured I would put it to work but not if itll be counterproductive.
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Old 01-31-2014, 12:37 AM   #12
Zefy
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ya i would use the pump off the 2.5L motor. It's a 10mm pump and better suited for your application. You can reseal it if you want to just to freshen it up. These oil pumps never really wear out or anything though.
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Old 01-31-2014, 12:17 PM   #13
tnrknght
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Sweet good to know. I know one of the bigger problems is often starving for oil so Id rather not make the same oversight, but as you pointed out I dont wanna overdo it either.
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Old 01-31-2014, 12:42 PM   #14
Zefy
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have a look in the built motor section. There are a number of discussion where people put on the sti pump with no avcs and end up with a blown motor because the oil sheers to much and froths up.
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Old 02-03-2014, 06:00 PM   #15
tnrknght
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Okay good to know. And if I remember correctly I was told to go with head gaskets that match the block would this be accurate? As opposed to matching the heads? Im just trying to get a general idea of what to find initially, I still have yet to start the teardowns.
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