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Old 10-19-2004, 01:03 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reddevil
I doubt the Saturn SC would be as easy to fit as the M62 is. Also, the M62 is totally capably of the same boost, it all comes down to pulley ratios. And most importantly, the cost is probably about a grand cheaper as I supect there are not too many "used" Saturn SC's out there yet.
That's true.

You might have to get a custom hood to get the Saturn SC to work. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure it could fit. It's long and thin, basically.
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Old 10-19-2004, 01:20 AM   #77
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Just to be clear,

for about 2k, you are saying you can get a WRX motor, wiring, ecu and/or aftermarket timing/af control, header and uppipe/downpipe, crossmember, walbro fuel pump upgrade, intercooler, clutch to take the power, and everything else to actually make it work?

Not being a jerk here, just wondering if this is what you are saying.
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Old 10-19-2004, 09:46 AM   #78
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I can pick up a wrx motor and ECU for under $1500. I'd get a wiring harness from Rallitek and a handful of friends. As far as exhaust bits go, I can get those for practically free here in Mid-A. I only know of one person that is running on a stock exhaust setup. Everyone else just has theirs lying around in garages or closets. I could piece one together for the price of new gaskets.

My swap is gonna start next fall, so I'll do a parts/$$ tally for you.

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Old 10-19-2004, 04:55 PM   #79
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Props to you. This is one of the best threads I've ever read. More boost please
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Old 10-20-2004, 09:27 PM   #80
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Installed the vacuumn switch today so I can be on boost while "On" the gas, but not at WOT. What the vacuum switch achieves is that it can read when the manifold pressure stops being a "vacuum" and and when it reads this, then the switch turns the SC on. As soon as you close the throttle fart enough to create vacuum in the manifold again, the switch turns off the SC. It gives much better performance/reaction and is alot smoother transition from off boost to on boost. However, now that this is the case, I need to rework the extra fuel solenoid somehow so I dont get the same amount of fuel at 3/4 throttle that I due at WOT. Pulled the car to 100 today for the first time since I got the boost to 7-8 psi and it was FUN. for 3 seconds it took me to get there, then I let off the gas.
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Old 10-24-2004, 07:35 PM   #81
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For the fuel selenoid, I believe they are pulse width modulated. So you would need to build or use a cicuit that can modulate the pulse for you.

You might be able to wire into the ECU for this, but I dont think so.
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Old 10-24-2004, 08:59 PM   #82
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When I get the money, I will be getting a FM program of somesort that can modulate an extra fuel injector. I still need to get a timing management system of some sort. I suspect I had a knock or two this weekend and am fearful of blowing #4 piston again. Of course this "knock" is nothing like when i actually was having engine destroying knock which sounded just like a few rocks were loose in the exhaust for every moment you were one boost. As of now, I have maybe heard one "rock" being loose only twice, and both times only once. I may be running a bit lean and suspect my fuel filter and will change it early this week. My digital AF meter (harbor freight multimeter) used to read about .79 to .81 while on boost. Now it only reads .55 at max. Not good.
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Old 10-27-2004, 12:26 AM   #83
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I may be wrong here, but won't that switch cause the S/C to cycle on/off when "on the gas"? I'm thinking when you dip the pedal, the motor will create vacuum, switch on the blower creating positive pressure, switching it right back off....and so on so forth. Is this what you experienced?
Quote:
Originally Posted by reddevil
Installed the vacuumn switch today so I can be on boost while "On" the gas, but not at WOT. What the vacuum switch achieves is that it can read when the manifold pressure stops being a "vacuum" and and when it reads this, then the switch turns the SC on. As soon as you close the throttle fart enough to create vacuum in the manifold again, the switch turns off the SC. It gives much better performance/reaction and is alot smoother transition from off boost to on boost. However, now that this is the case, I need to rework the extra fuel solenoid somehow so I dont get the same amount of fuel at 3/4 throttle that I due at WOT. Pulled the car to 100 today for the first time since I got the boost to 7-8 psi and it was FUN. for 3 seconds it took me to get there, then I let off the gas.
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Old 10-27-2004, 01:34 AM   #84
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No. When you are at idle, just puttering along, or even accellerating a small amount, your manifold pressure is in the vacumn stage. When you accelerate hard enough, then the manifold pressure will jump up to "0". It is at this stage that the vacumn switch will detect this, and the SC will turn on. As soon as you let up on the throttle, the manifold pressure dumps back down into vacumn territory and the SC switch shuts off the SC.

It is working fairly well, although I do have problems if I am in first and slowly accellerate and then punch it. If I am at high rpms, which you can get to without ever breaking vacumn, and then punch it, the SC switch doesnt read this and so the SC doesnt turn on. However, if I just bump the gas pedal and punch it, then it turns on. ie, still needs a little fine tuning in first.
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Old 10-27-2004, 02:52 AM   #85
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Okay....I gotcha now. Sounds cool!

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Old 10-27-2004, 04:16 PM   #86
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Old 10-27-2004, 05:06 PM   #87
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If I may ask a question, Why wouldnt you want it to come on at say 1/2 or 2/3 throttle? So you wouldnt have to jump on it to get the SC to turn on? Is there no way to have the switch turn on at whatever negative value that would be? say -.9 or so? CAn you fool the switch? Thanks.

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Old 10-27-2004, 06:52 PM   #88
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because throttle position is not always relative to manifold pressure. You can be cruising at 100 mph, but if you are "cruising" in fifth gear, you only need a few horsepower to keep you at 100 mph, but the throttle position is definately open to a certain degree. Same with cruising at 60 mph in third. If you are not accellerating, just cruising, your rpms will be high, your throttle will be 1/2 or more open, but you don't need any huge hp to keep you cruising at that speed. And so your manifold pressure at this stage is at vacumn. Now if you suddenly punch it, you manifold pressure will head to 0, and of course you will need power, and the SC will turn on.
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Old 10-27-2004, 08:43 PM   #89
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And the way I have it set up, with no fuel management, just an on/off fuel solenoid, pretty much sucks for daily driving. If you "bog" it, you really do, cause the extra fuel solenoid also kicks in and blows in too much fuel for such low demand and floods the engine. I tried running the SC without the extra fuel today except at WOT and suffered some detonation almost immediately. So I hooked the fuel solenoid back up to the SC FAST!

Without money, one must suffer the foibles of shop built ingenuity.
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Old 10-28-2004, 07:17 PM   #90
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just curious, would you have rather dont an EJ20 swap at this point, or not? I am about to leap into this, and I just want to know what kind of headache this is going to be. I do plan to have some management, the apexi ITC and a RRFPR with a J&S, I think I can do it for 1/2 the price of a WRX swap...but still there is the headache factor...
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Old 10-28-2004, 08:13 PM   #91
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Do I wish I had done an ej20 swap?

IF I had the all the money at once,
IF I could live with having the car down for a LONG time,
IF I wanted to be like everyone else,

Maybe.

Doing the supercharger install like I have done was an affordable build up, the car was never down longer than a day at a time (except when I blew #4 piston, then it was down for less than two weeks), is the only supercharged subaru I know of on the west coast (please prove me wrong!) and it is capable of decent power.

If someone like me had done this before, posted everything they had done with pictures, like me, and answered most questions, like me, it would have gone alot faster and safer to start with.

So if you are interested in doing it, I say DO IT! Remember though, you will never get the same power as a turbocharged motor because we cant just turn up the boost like they can. Depending upon your motor type,2.2 vs 2.5, max boost obtainable is probably about 10 psi, which in my case would put out a max 220 crank hp if I was lucky. Right now I am about 180ish. Maybe 200 but I havent spent the money on a dyno run yet. Still better than the stock 130 though!

The speed and ease of installing a supercharger is way better than an engine swap and/or a turbo kit. And while installing a walbro pump and rrfpr is considered a "bandaid" by some, it does work well enough to keep the motor from blowing up until you can afford fuel and timing management.

If I were to send you my "kit" off of my car, you could install it in less than 3 hours, closer to 2, unless you are mechanically moronic. Try that with an engine swap or turbo kit! Unfortunately, there is no "kit" and you will have to cobble together the kit yourself. But since I am here to answer questions, and you can see the photos and read this thread, it will go alot faster and easier than the process I went through.

Good luck. but yes, I would like a 300 hp sti engine in my 1990 wagon, who wouldnt?
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Old 10-28-2004, 10:35 PM   #92
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I must do a serious apology about my boost levels now. I have been using a used and incorrect boost gauge for awhile now because it was free. I had been doing what I though was a very good estimation of what my boost levels were. But then I fixed the damn thing tonight and finally got it to zero at zero so I could read correct vacumn AND boost. And do you know what about my estimated boost?

I was wrong.

This is both good and bad. Bad for braggin but good for the engine. It turns out I am boosting a max of 5 psi right now, not the 8 psi I was estimating.

So, my crank hp is maxed out at maybe 180, probably closer to 160-170, not the 200 I was hoping for. However, this means I can still keep improving airflow, fuel management and increase boost. The stock engine should be able to handle the power up to 8-10 psi if the timing and fuel management is accounted for. Since the timing and fuel management are NOT accounted for now, and running swell, I should be able to up the boost.

Of course the hardest thing now is upping the boost because it a stupid pulley SC! Instead of changing pulleys now though, since I have maxed out crank pulley diameter for now, I suspect I must redo, or replace, the current AWIC bacause it is so restrictive in the inlet. It goes from 2.75" diameter to 2". This isnt just obvious, it looks like a porn start shoved into icewater. Possibly I can modify the JDM AWIC, or maybe I will have to revert to a more exspensive FMIC that allows the huge 2.75" piping all the way through.

Durn it all to heck!
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Old 10-29-2004, 08:09 AM   #93
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I think the whole SC thing is cool. Primarily, because it's not done a whole lot.
This is way less than my twin turbo engine I'm building will run me... but... I'll have alot more power. lol.
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Old 11-05-2004, 01:08 AM   #94
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I have 100% confirmed my unwelcome suspicions that I am only boosting 5 psi. I finally got a 100% working boost guage (and for only $15!) and was hoping that the old one was still kinda off. But it wasnt.

So, at 5 psi max, I have 175 chp max in a dreamworld, probably more like 160 realistically.

Bad view point of this: 1 - for the money I have spent I could have purchased a really nice turbo 91-94 turbo legacy (ok, as nice as $4k would allow, and remember only $1500 or so of this was on the supercharger project). 2 - Not much power to brag about. 3 - More and more stock enonomy cars have more power than me!

Good points of this: 1 - I have the only supercharged 2.2 Legacy in the world! 2 - At 5 psi, and running clean and safe, I still have plenty of boost to achieve. Making 8-10 psi is not out of the question and achieving 220 chp isnt either (although getting enough extra money to do this is!). 3 - 5psi via a supercharger is awesome on the rallycross track! The instant on/off boost in first smokes most WRXs and about everything else out there. 4 - Unlike when running NA, shifting into 4th doesnt mean slowing down! The power to accellerate just stays there and keeps increasing as the RPMs rise, just like in every other gear, so cool! 5 - Still damn fun!
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Old 11-05-2004, 06:04 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reddevil
I have 100% confirmed my unwelcome suspicions that I am only boosting 5 psi. I finally got a 100% working boost guage (and for only $15!) and was hoping that the old one was still kinda off. But it wasnt.

So, at 5 psi max, I have 175 chp max in a dreamworld, probably more like 160 realistically.

Bad view point of this: 1 - for the money I have spent I could have purchased a really nice turbo 91-94 turbo legacy (ok, as nice as $4k would allow, and remember only $1500 or so of this was on the supercharger project). 2 - Not much power to brag about. 3 - More and more stock enonomy cars have more power than me!

Good points of this: 1 - I have the only supercharged 2.2 Legacy in the world! 2 - At 5 psi, and running clean and safe, I still have plenty of boost to achieve. Making 8-10 psi is not out of the question and achieving 220 chp isnt either (although getting enough extra money to do this is!). 3 - 5psi via a supercharger is awesome on the rallycross track! The instant on/off boost in first smokes most WRXs and about everything else out there. 4 - Unlike when running NA, shifting into 4th doesnt mean slowing down! The power to accellerate just stays there and keeps increasing as the RPMs rise, just like in every other gear, so cool! 5 - Still damn fun!
Hey Bud,
Good thread but you said it yourself............(it aint T/Charged! )
Great thing to learn what you SHOULD be doing with it.....(nice to be different I know, but really...?)

I suppose that's why Subaru have produced SO MANY Supercharged Vehicles... Love your work.........


Cheers,

Sixpack Subaru
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Old 11-05-2004, 06:14 AM   #96
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10 Points for effort/time spent though!!!
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Old 11-06-2004, 01:04 AM   #97
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While not official, i do have have enough hp to beat a 195,000 mile stock 6 cyclinder Ford Probe which had 164 stock chp. But just barely, and by barely I means by a few feet. We drove out a few abandoned country roads tonight and I kept creeping on him. We took it up to redline in both our cars in third which was about 85 or so, and neither did the big jump on each other, just staying steady but with me gaining a few feet as we flew down throught the crowded school zone into a blind and hhandicaped convention for the wheelchair bound.

Had it come to actual handling, we still would have been close, although he was amazed at how well I took an onramp on boost because of the AWD. So combine the equal power and AWD, and I would probably beat him at Autocross. We are going to join that in the spring. He might bring his probe out to the last Rallycross, but only if it is not raining.
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Old 11-20-2004, 02:50 PM   #98
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Reddevil, I just joined a couple of days ago hoping to find any thing for my 97obs w/a 2.2. I found this, read through it all, and am rather impressed. So much so that I am cosidering taking it on my self to see if I can make the only(?) S.C. subaru in the midwest. I'm not out for max proformance, mostly the fun and braging rights of the progect (not to mention the uniquness). If (if... if... the cused if!)I get the balls to start this I maybe pestering you for advice. Thanks for the insparation
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Old 12-08-2004, 12:46 AM   #99
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A little update.

I have removed my extra fuel solenoid. Started causing "Way Too Rich" situations which ended up in bogged/dead engines at intersections. Now it runs just fine on only the rrfpr. However! I plan on installing bigger 370 cc injectors and/or a 4-1 rrfpr as soon as I get them. I want the injectors first and since they are so spendy, I need to get them off ebay, which takes awhile.

I am pushing 4.5 to 5 psi when I have a good/new 5 rib belt installed. My "custom" alternator pulley which I made was little sharp and started to shred/eat the old belt so my psi started dropping down to 3.5 psi. I replaced the belt and BAMN!!!! instant increase. So I remilled the alternator pulley. Hopefulley wont screw the belt up this fast this time.

I have a modified "stock" Mercedes piping section being welded up for connecting the SC to the AWIC. I suspect (PLEASE PLEASE BE BENIFICIAL) this will be good for about 1 psi. The reason this should help is this. Originally the stock piping was straight from the SC to the throttle body AND 2.5" diameter (or something that large, cant measure right now, I am inside and the car is outside, in the rain, in the cold, lonely and sad). When boosting with this piping setup, I was pushing 12 psi. WAY TOO MUCH for the setup I had, which did NOT have the walbro pump and the rrfpr. So I blew #4 piston.

I rebuilt the engine engine and never reinstalled the custom crank pulley that pushed the high PSI's untill after I installed the AWIC. I just didnt want to risk another blown motor. So while I may have lived with the higher boost due to the fuel pressure modifications, I just didnt want to gamble another motor.

So I have the AWIC hugely affecting the boost PSI, as well as the piping affecting the PSI because the piping from the SC to the AWIC went from 2.5(maybe 2.75, cant remember) to 2". This is like a porn star dick to your dick in a cold pool, huge to pinkie size. And then, to top it off, and why I think it really is restricting the PSI, the piping reduction has the smaller piping goes into the larger piping twice, causing big swirl/rapids problems. I hope the clean new piping will eliminate this.


The SC is not turning as fast as it can via factory standards. So I need to up the SC rpm. I need to figure out how to do this. I know how actually, the question is either spend another $200-$300 for a custom crank pulley or another $200-$400 for a stepper pulley off the powersteering pump. This could be, depending upon pulley ration, good up another 4 psi.

So, by the next Rallycross in April, I could be boosting up to 10 psi with these modifications/upgrades. Lets see where it goes.
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Old 12-16-2004, 03:44 PM   #100
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Interesting read reddevil, welcome to the club

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