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Old 08-21-2004, 01:37 AM   #1
CK02WRX
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Default Element Tuning Hydra Installed!!! Long

I installed it today and got it running after a little from Phil of Element Tuning via telephone. My setup is different from any that Phil has tuned so far (w/ the Hydra) so I had to try a few of his tuned maps before I found one that would start my car and idle good enough to be able to begin tuning start-up and idle. I spent a lot of time on the phone with Phil today and without his help I would never have been able to get the car to start or idle. I'm glad I purchased the Hydra from one of Phil's vendors (Worldone Performance) because by doing so you get Phil for custom service. Once I got it to start and idle, I then took it for a ride. The acceleration was very smooth. There was none of the "herky jerky" that the stock ecu has and it was great to not have that annoying stumble related to the Utec when it takes over control from the stock ecu. My wife made a comment that it feels like the engine is doing less work. Keep in mind that she knows nothing about cars and what she ment was that its really smooth and feels like a stock vehicle. I had to ask her what she ment because I had no idea what she was talking about with the less work statment. I'm currently running 13psi (wastegate boost) until I recieve the WB next week. I can't wait to start tuning the fuel so I can crank up the boost. I have tuned a few utecs including my own (several times) and I don't consider myself to be anywhere near an expert. So, if you fall in to the same category as I do and you want a hydra I suggest you not mess with any settings until you have a chance to talk to Phil. That being said, once Phil walks you through the program and settings it is not that hard to get use to. Like tuning a utec, the fuel and timing are very similar but the start-up and Idle are a whole different story. Once you get that nailed you should have no worries. If you are running a 2.0 with one of the popular setups ie (550cc or modded injectors, a vf30-34, PE1820, FP20G, Fp green) Phil probably has a map that will start your car, make it idle and be darn close on the fuel. The timing maps are nailed and you shouldn't have to touch them. I only had a few small snags trying to get the car to start and idle but most of that is due to my setup. I haven't had much time with the hydra but so far its been awesome and I recommend it if you want total control and know what to do with it. I also recommend you buy it through Phil or one of his dealers like Worldone Performance that why you not only get a great product but also excellent customer service.

Later,
Corey
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Old 08-21-2004, 01:41 AM   #2
John Sever
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So whats your setup? Inquiring minds wanna know
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Old 08-21-2004, 01:44 AM   #3
CK02WRX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Sever
So whats your setup? Inquiring minds wanna know
<---------------

What makes it a little different is the Pe650's on the 257 longblock. The Pe's have been a pain since I got them.
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Old 08-23-2004, 12:28 PM   #4
CK02WRX
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I dropped the idle to 760rmp and it's really smooth. I think most with the Hydra are idling around 950rmp which is a little high for my taste. Hopefully I'll get the WBo2 this week and get fuel curve nailed. I also look forward to wiring the AVCS for the first time.
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Old 08-23-2004, 05:55 PM   #5
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Congratulations! Idling at 750 rpm is no problem once you have the AFR dialed in for that vacuum and rpm. Looks like you're getting the hang of things in short order.

Phil
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Old 08-23-2004, 08:45 PM   #6
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I'm planning on buying a piggyback in the next week. I'd considered the hydra, but wasn't there something that you couldn't do with it that the utec still works with? I think it was something like the a/c or something non engine related.
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Old 08-23-2004, 09:26 PM   #7
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I should have the Hydra soon (tommorrow?) but my engine is still not back in the car. I'm using an EJ257 w/V8 heads with AVCS. Previously I was using a V8 ECU retuned by Trey Cobb, which I liked a lot, I just need a little more flexibility. With that ECU my throttle response was amazing, if the Hydra can duplicate that then I'll be happy.
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Old 08-24-2004, 12:21 AM   #8
CK02WRX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenlee
I'm planning on buying a piggyback in the next week. I'd considered the hydra, but wasn't there something that you couldn't do with it that the utec still works with? I think it was something like the a/c or something non engine related.
If you have a STI you loose cruise control. There might be plans to fix that but I'm not sure. On the WRX the cruise control still works. That is probably what you are refering to. The AC works on both. Also, the Hydra is a standalone.

Last edited by CK02WRX; 08-24-2004 at 12:26 AM.
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Old 08-24-2004, 12:23 AM   #9
CK02WRX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwx
I should have the Hydra soon (tommorrow?) but my engine is still not back in the car. I'm using an EJ257 w/V8 heads with AVCS. Previously I was using a V8 ECU retuned by Trey Cobb, which I liked a lot, I just need a little more flexibility. With that ECU my throttle response was amazing, if the Hydra can duplicate that then I'll be happy.
You will be able to adjust the throttle response so you should be able to get it the way you like it.
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Old 08-24-2004, 12:27 PM   #10
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I'm also using PE650 injectors, Phil had mentioned that he's tuned three cars with the Hydra with PE650s and they all behaved differently.
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Old 08-25-2004, 08:46 AM   #11
CK02WRX
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You'll be able to get it started and running on one of his pe maps but you'll probably have to mess with the ISC settings to get it to idle smoothly. You willl also have to tune the whole fuel map. Mine runs extremly rich but I'll be able to fix that with the auto-tune feature. The auto-tune is going to be much quicker than having to log a pull, then look at the log , make changes, and log agian. I'm hoping the WB gets here this week so I can tune the cruise RPM's for fuel economy and then do WOT at wastegate boost (13psi) and work my way up to 20psi. I also have some VP C16 but I think I'll be pushing my stock 5-speed hard enough at 20psi on 93oct. I still haven't ran more the 16.5 psi on this engine yet, and it would hold that all the way to the redline. I'm excited to see what will happen when I run 20+ psi on the FP18G 8cm^2 turbo. I also need to check my idle afr because I think my stock o2 sensor needs to be replaced.
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Old 08-25-2004, 11:58 AM   #12
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I think I have a grasp on what needs to be done to the maps for the PE injectors which should require less fine tuning of the idle. All of the PE tuning was done on a 2.0 liter engine and there just needs to be more fuel in the start zones for the 2.5 so I've modified that area of the map and have updated DWX's map (which I will send to you).

Whenever I notice any large variance for a set of modifications I'll usually take the cautious route and send the map out rich. But the beauty of the WB AutoTune feature is that is capable of tuning the fuel curve so quickly it's hardly an issue.

Because Element has an in depth knowledge of not only the computer but the mapping, if at any point you're struggling I can walk you through getting it smoothed out over the phone.

Thanks,
Phil
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Old 08-25-2004, 10:14 PM   #13
CK02WRX
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My start up and idle have been awesome since you helped me over the phone and got me headed in the right direction. Now I'm ready to do some auto tuning and get the boost up.
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Old 08-26-2004, 08:47 PM   #14
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Edit
I had swapped the rear o2 sensor to the front bung because the front o2 sensor is not used with the hydra. I will be putting the rear sensor back where it's supposed to be because the egts are hotter up front and the sensor is not in its normal operating temp. The reason I moved it was so I could use the rear spot for the NTK WB sensor. I think I'm going to get rid of the narrow band and use the NTK WB for closed loop and tuning. If it last 20,000 miles on 93oct I'll be happy and consider it worth the $180-$200 for a replacement sensor.


I posted this a few months back but here it is again.Hydra software
It's a slightly different version than what comes with the hydra. Some of the changes that I noticed in the new software are: you can change the angle of the 3D map and the gauges at the bottom are no long there. However if you install the new software over the old the gauges are still there but I have not checked to see if they work. There are probably a few other change I didn't notice.

Last edited by CK02WRX; 08-28-2004 at 10:45 AM.
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Old 09-01-2004, 06:45 PM   #15
CK02WRX
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WBo2 was shipped from Hydra-ems and I should recieve it on Sept 8th. When I get it and have a chance to tune I'll give more info on the Auto tune, closed loop using the WB for light load area, closed loop using the WB target tables, and the logger. Both of the stock o2 sensors will be removed and I will be using the NTK WBo2 100% of the time in the rear o2 sensor location. Everthing is still running great.
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Old 09-02-2004, 11:33 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CK02WRX
WBo2 was shipped from Hydra-ems and I should recieve it on Sept 8th. When I get it and have a chance to tune I'll give more info on the Auto tune, closed loop using the WB for light load area, closed loop using the WB target tables, and the logger. Both of the stock o2 sensors will be removed and I will be using the NTK WBo2 100% of the time in the rear o2 sensor location. Everthing is still running great.
When you recieve your WB give me a call and I'll make sure you understand the process. Here is a little info I posted elsewhere:

Short Term Trim: Constantly makes minor adjustments of fueling to reach 14.7 AFR during a drive cycle under light load conditions while using the factory 02 sensor.
Long Term Trim: Makes major long term change to reach 14.7 AFR during a drive cycle under light load conditions while using the factory 02 sensor.

So for instance if under a given RPM and a given load your fuel map is off by -7%, the “LTT” will add +7% more fuel. The “STT” will make minor adjustments as needed to maintain 14.7 AFR if +7% is no longer the appropriate adjustment. Fuel trims are defined during a given drive cycle but once the car is turned off both the “STT” and the “LTT” are set back to zero. You can use the “LTT” table (logs trims) to manually correct the fuel map under light load.

If you have purchased the WB/AutoTune option you can use your “AFR Target” table to define the AFR under light load conditions instead of being limited to 14.7 AFR.

The “AutoTune” feature makes permanent fuel corrections to all load ranges defined in your “Closed Loop” settings. The AFR target is set in the “AFR Target” table. You should turn off “Long Term Trim” while using “AutoTune” as these temporary changes will inhibit the permanent tuning process (too many chefs in the kitchen so to speak).

Thanks,
Phil
www.elementtuning.com
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Old 09-09-2004, 02:00 AM   #17
CK02WRX
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I got the wideband on the 8th and I was going to wait until the 9th to start tuning, but I couldn't wait. I don't have logs to show you how fast the autotune is because you have to export the logs to excel and I don't have excel on the computer in my car. I might put it on tomarrow if I have time. Well, the autotune was almost dead on the target after 2 pulls from 2000 rpm -7200 rpm. After 1 pull the AFR was about 2 points off the target and after the second pull it was dead on or 1 point off. I notiiced a few small knocks in a few pulls I did today. They were so small that the Hydra was pulling less than 1 deg and one time it pulled .1 deg. I'm not sure if it knocked or if the Hydra was just preventing knock. I did not get any flashing CEL. One thing I did notice was that the Hydra was showing 15psi and my boost gauge was showing almost 16psi. This seems normal because when I had a utec it was about the same. The tuning went really fast. Do 3-4 pulls, turn the boost up, and repeat until you hit all the load zones under WOT. 2 pulls was fine most of the time but I did a few more just to make sure everything was okay. I only had time (wife) to tune from 12 psi to 15 psi. After doing only one pull at12psi, I could tell the car was accelerating faster and smoother.
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Old 09-10-2004, 01:56 AM   #18
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I did a little more tuning today. 18psi @ 3400rpm 3rd gear and drops to 16pst at 7200rpm. I love the autotune, it so easy. I have noticed that the pre set-up wideband target table for the autotune is a tad to lean for my engine. Some of the high rmp spots are 11-11.2 AFR and I noticed that mine seems to like 10.7-10.9 AFR. So I changed the target map did and did a 2 pulls, then logged a pull and it was dead on.
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Old 09-10-2004, 11:06 AM   #19
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The AutoTune will really spoil you since it works so well! It sure beats manually making all those changes.

Here's what an Element Hydra log looks like in case anyone is interested.

Code:
	
Time    coolant  AFR	(rpm)	 tps  (psi)   speed    knock  air      duty   knock    boost   cell   cell     fuel advance
                                                        ramp  temp    cycle    ret     valve     X      Y      pulse 
1:25:03 PM 93	14.1	3,000.00 102	10.6	47	1.1	60	28.4	0	77.2	18	7	10.9	14
1:25:03 PM 93	13.5	3,100.00 102	12.2	48	0.8	60	31.6	0	75.6	18	7	12.2	13
1:25:04 PM 93	12.1	3,200.00 102	14.7	51	0.7	59	37.2	0	71.6	20	8	13.1	11
1:25:04 PM 93	11.6	3,300.00 102	15.7	52	1.2	59	39.6	0	70.8	21	8	13.8	11
1:25:04 PM 93	11.4	3,350.00 102	16.3	53	0.9	58	41.2	0	70.4	21	9	14.7	12
1:25:04 PM 93	11.1	3,400.00 102	16.3	55	0.6	58	45.2	0	69.6	22	9	14.7	12
1:25:04 PM 93	10.9	3,500.00 102	17.3	56	1.3	57	48.8	0	69.6	22	9	15.4	12
1:25:04 PM 93	10.9	3,600.00 102	17.9	57	1	56	47.2	0	68.4	22	10	15.7	13
1:25:05 PM 93	10.9	3,650.00 102	17.9	58	1	55	50	0	68.4	22	10	15.7	13
1:25:05 PM 92	11.1	3,800.00 102	17.9	60	1	55	52	0	68.4	22	11	16	13
1:25:05 PM 92	11	3,900.00 102	17.9	61	1.3	54	56	0	67.2	23	11	16.3	12
1:25:05 PM 93	10.6	3,950.00 102	18.2	63	1.1	53	60	0	66.4	23	12	17.3	13
1:25:06 PM 93	10.4	4,150.00 102	18.9	65	1	52	63.2	0	66	23	12	17	13
1:25:06 PM 93	10.5	4,250.00 102	18.6	67	1.6	51	63.6	0	66.8	22	13	17.3	14
1:25:06 PM 93	10.6	4,350.00 102	18.9	69	1.2	51	66.8	0	65.6	23	13	17.3	14
1:25:06 PM 93	10.6	4,450.00 102	17.9	71	1.2	50	70.4	0	66.4	23	14	17.6	15
1:25:07 PM 93	10.9	4,550.00 102	18.2	72	1.2	49	71.2	0	66.8	23	14	17.3	15
1:25:07 PM 93	10.9	4,650.00 102	18.9	73	1.2	48	72.4	0	66	23	15	17.6	15
1:25:07 PM 93	10.7	4,750.00 102	18.6	75	1.3	48	73.2	0	66.8	22	15	17.3	15
1:25:07 PM 93	10.7	4,800.00 102	19.2	77	1.1	47	76.4	0	65.6	23	16	17.6	16
1:25:07 PM 93	10.6	4,950.00 102	18.9	78	0.9	47	77.6	0	66.4	23	16	17.3	16
1:25:08 PM 93	10.6	5,050.00 102	18.6	79	0.9	46	80.4	0	67.2	23	17	17.3	17
1:25:08 PM 93	10.9	5,200.00 102	18.9	82	1	46	84	0	67.6	22	18	17.9	18
1:25:08 PM 93	10.9	5,300.00 102	17.9	83	1	45	82.4	0	69.2	22	18	17.3	18
1:25:08 PM 93	10.9	5,350.00 102	18.2	85	0.9	45	81.6	0	68.4	22	18	17.3	18
1:25:09 PM 93	10.7	5,450.00 102	17.9	86	1.4	45	87.6	0	69.2	23	19	18.2	19
1:25:09 PM 93	10.9	5,600.00 102	17.9	88	1	44	88.4	0	69.2	22	20	17.6	20
1:25:09 PM 93	10.6	5,700.00 102	17.9	90	1.1	44	88	0	69.2	22	20	18.2	20
1:25:09 PM 93	10.9	5,800.00 102	17.3	92	0.9	43	90.4	0	69.6	22	21	17.9	20
1:25:09 PM 93	10.9	5,900.00 102	18.2	93	1.4	43	90.4	0	69.2	22	21	17.6	20
1:25:10 PM 93	10.9	6,000.00 102	17.3	95	1.5	43	92.4	0	70.4	22	22	17.9	21
1:25:10 PM 93	10.9	6,100.00 102	17.3	97	1.1	42	96.4	0	69.6	22	22	17.9	21
1:25:10 PM 93	11	6,300.00 102	17.9	100	1	41	96.8	0	70.4	21	23	17.9	21
1:25:11 PM 93	11	6,350.00 102	17	102	1	41	100.8	0	70.8	22	24	18.2	21
1:25:11 PM 93	11.1	6,450.00 102	17.3	102	1	41	102	0	70.4	22	24	18.2	21
1:25:11 PM 93	11.1	6,550.00 102	17.3	104	1.3	41	102	0	69.6	22	24	17.6	21
1:25:11 PM 93	11.1	6,600.00 102	17	105	1.2	40	102	0	70.4	21	25	18.6	20
1:25:11 PM 93	11.2	6,700.00 102	17.9	106	1.3	40	102	0	70.4	22	25	17.6	20
1:25:12 PM 93	11.1	6,750.00 102	16.6	107	1.8	40	102	0	69.6	22	26	18.6	20
1:25:12 PM 93	11.1	6,850.00 102	17.6	108	1.8	40	102	0	70.8	22	26	18.9	20
1:25:12 PM 94	11.1	6,900.00 102	17.9	110	1.5	40	102	0	69.2	22	26	18.2	20
1:25:12 PM 94	11.1	7,000.00 102	17.6	111	1.4	40	102	0	70.4	22	26	17.6	20
This was on an WRX using 550cc injectors and an VF34.

Thanks,
Phil
www.elementtuning.com

Last edited by Element Tuning; 09-11-2004 at 03:54 AM.
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Old 09-10-2004, 02:27 PM   #20
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Maybe upgrading the injectors and fuel pump even with the stock turbo would be an improvement and serve as staging for future turbo upgrade. It will not be the first time I've heard that the stock injectors are the limiting component in the system.
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Old 09-10-2004, 04:39 PM   #21
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Last edited by Element Tuning; 09-11-2004 at 03:53 AM.
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Old 09-10-2004, 07:27 PM   #22
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I know, it's freaking me out that the 800cc injectors are reaching 100% duty cycle and you are only running ~2-3 psi more boost than a stock turbo. Other's have observed maxed out stock injectors with delta dash or UTEC logging, but this is the first time I've seen maxed out 800-850cc injectors. It's nuts, you just aren't running that much more boost than stock.

Other's have questioned the IDC in Delta Dash. Is it 100% of 80% actual duty cycle? This is because people were observing readings to 110%+ IDC. It should not be possible.

Now I wonder the same for the Element: is that duty cycle an actual pulse frequency divided by maximum pulse frequency, or is it some reference to the 80% IDC limit?
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Old 09-10-2004, 07:41 PM   #23
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It has more to do with CFM than boost pressure. For instance a Garrett GT35 running 17 psi vs. the stock VF39 running 17 psi would not equal the same CFM. A GT35 is capable of 400 +whp at 17 psi where the VF39 would never come close to this power level. This is obviously just an example.

Thanks,
Phil
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Old 09-10-2004, 08:53 PM   #24
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I've never had much luck understanding the 17 psi is not 17 psi argument. At the same temperature and RPM they should be exactly the same. I know the whole "you are wasting power by building heat in the turbo". Bigger turbo, blowing more efficiently should be blowing cooler air at 17 psi than the VF39--as it sputters to redline. So I can see that your 1820 is more efficient at that pressure ratio, and thus post-intercooler you have a cooler more dense charge to which you add more fuel for more power from the injectors.

But.....

If the stocker's are 480 cc/min and your Perrin mod's are 810 cc/min, you have 70% more capacity there in IDC, are you blowing 70% more air (even adjusted for temp) to max those injectors out? Maybe you are, that's 510 hp at the crank, congrats!
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Old 09-11-2004, 03:52 AM   #25
Element Tuning
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Vehicle:
673 WHP Element
Tuning Pro Comp Engine

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"I've never had much luck understanding the 17 psi is not 17 psi argument. At the same temperature and RPM they should be exactly the same."

Sorry to be blunt but you're just plain wrong. Compressor maps are only 1/2 of a turbocharger's effectiveness and a restrictive exhaust housing will increase back pressure, therefore preventing effective flow of exhaust gasses. No compressor chart will illustrate this to you. It comes with a basic understanding of the whole turbocharger system's relationship to the engine's flow requirements.

"So I can see that your 1820 is more efficient at that pressure ratio, and thus post-intercooler you have a cooler more dense charge to which you add more fuel for more power from the injectors."

This is not my turbocharger but a customer’s car. Again the 1820 has a p20 exhaust housing vs. the STI's p15 (I believe). If you keep cramming the boost in but it's not coming out the exhaust you won't be making much power. This is why you can make more power with less boost pressure by utilizing a larger exhaust housing. Just because boost pressure is lower doesn't mean the actual flow of air has decreased. Again this is all really basic stuff.

"If the stocker's are 480 cc/min and your Perrin mod's are 810 cc/min, you have 70% more capacity there in IDC, are you blowing 70% more air (even adjusted for temp) to max those injectors out? Maybe you are, that's 510 hp at the crank, congrats!"

This is not my car and these are not Perrin 810cc injectors. By the way I just realized I posted the wrong data log. This is from a 2.0 using 550cc injectors and a VF34. ummm sorry I’ve edited the original post to reflect this.

I still hope you learned something even though you were right about the injectors.

Phil
www.elementtuning.com
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